A Recurring Issue

[terryo]

"opinion"? my opinion leads me to believe that this thread has gone to the crapper.....the only thing that I am getting from this thread at this point is that there are folks on here that do not like Tom, sorry Tom but kids on the playground are running a muck. I am thinking that if we all just leave them to themselves they will get bored with their banter and hopefully go do something worthwhile.

However, I think you are a big boy and can once again come on over to the playground area where the kids have learned how awesome it is to play with heart and consideration and respect....

Tom, in my humble opinion There is nothing positive to be gained here on this thread.....anything you offer up as your opinion is going to be turned into "show me proof" if this were a scientific forum that would be understandable.....so the thread has been so tainted it has become something else totally....

I am personally seeing alot of the blah blah blah....look at what degree I have and therefore what I say goes, nonsense lately.....I do appreciate someones passion for the reptile, but also appreciate someone saying what they have to say and not starting such crap as happened here..oh wait, let me put in my disclaimer, IMHO that is.

Actually I learned along time ago those that accuse are likely the sad, pathetic culprit themselves.....once more, IMHO that is.

Once again you have taken the words right out of my mouth. This thread reminds me of a very similar thread a while ago. I'm starting to think that there are some people on here that used to be here under a different name. Please keep sharing with us, Tom. Your opinion and experience matters.

 

[Baoh]

You are welcome to your opinion of Baoh's tactics. I do not share it.
He IS making an assertion and it is the opposite of my assertion. If I must prove mine in order for it to be credible why should the opposing side not prove theirs?
What evidence is there? What I am to show? I and others have seen tortoises die from mixing species. What shall I post as proof? Pics of dead tortoises?
I did not say the sky is falling. I said mixing species is a bad idea and it can lead to the death of one's tortoises and it can.

For the record: This thread is, and was, just what the title stated. It was meant in a general sense. It is a concept that I experience regularly and it frustrates me. I did not bring the debate about the other thread here, BUT I don't mind that it made it here. I did not want it cluttering the other person's thread, and I rather enjoy discussing tortoise issues with tortoise people. I'm about to start a "mixing species" poll and continue the discussion outside of this thread.

For those who want proof that mixing species is a bad idea: We all agree that there are no studies done on this (I think we agree), so what can I post as proof? My word is not carrying any weight with some people, other people's word in agreement with me is carrying no weight, I don't have or know where to find studies on this, I am not going to do another long term experiment on this to prove my point, so what is it that I can show to lend my assertion some credibility?

Please provide the quote to back up what you are asserting in bold above.

A poll, again, would be an appeal to popularity fallacy.

Evidence: Laboratory results of these instances that are claimed to have taken place in your presence. Organism identification with genomic confirmation of source such that host 1 is confirmed to have the same genomic ID of the organism in host two. Before without infection and after with infection. Statistically significant sample size. Arms of intra-specific infection versus arms of inter-specific infection that show the latter is more deleterious than the former in previously verified healthy animals via the same methods used to determine infection.

Your word is not evidence. See above.

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Two points: This post was not about mixing species. Its about people ignoring the obvious. This has happened many times and most of the time it has nothing to do with tortoises. This does not mean that mixing species and ignoring people who say that they have seen fatalities as a result, does not fall into this category in my mind, but still the OP was a general statement. I was not pointing a finger at anyone in particular and insinuating "trust me or you are stupid".

Second point: I have no problem with people doing things differently than me. In fact when they get good results, I promote their methods and show them to others as alternatives to my way of doing things. Doing something that could very well kill tortoises and passing it off as okay, is not just "choosing a different way", it is potentially harmful. This is the only reason that I make such a big deal about doing it. If I was doing something that you knew first hand was bad for tortoises, would you not point it out? Then we could discuss why we see this issue differently. I would not insult you or try to belittle you or try to dazzle the audience with fancy terms. I would not ask you to produce documents that don't exist and insinuate that you are a liar, or somehow incompetent because you cannot produce said documents. If you Renee, said to me, "Tom, I have seen such and such with my own eyes." I would believe you. If others chimed in and supported your statements I would believe them too. I would also consider your motive. "What does Renee gain from trying to convince me of this?" This is not about two different, but harmless styles of keeping tortoises, this is about discouraging others from engaging in potentially harmful housing practices.

What is obvious implies common beliefs. If our beliefs are not shared, what we see to be obvious is different. By insisting that what you consider to be "obvious" overrides what another considers to be "obvious" does effectively translate to "trust me or you are stupid".

Feel free to answer the questions I have repeatedly asked you, by the way. It may be obvious to me that you have been sidestepping them, but it may not be obvious to you.



Your multiple mentions of the types of words I use lead me to believe you could derive great ROI from investment in a dictionary. Especially since you claimed or implied having an educational background in biology and parasitology. Or is it someone else who has the background and you are just whispering down the lane? The words I use are specific and have specific meaning in the contexts within which I make use of them. One cannot discuss matters of logic, experimentation, illness, biology, and so on by only trotting out a gem like, "Me like cookes real goooood."

Any style of housing tortoises has the potential to cause some form of harm. Many styles have yielded success and many have yielded failure. On occasion, these have even been the same styles.

 

[Tom]

Baoh, you are correct in that I do not have "evidence" to present. I have asked several times now, what evidence is there? I know of no studies. If there are studies, I do not know how to find them. If I could get vet records and necropsy reports, what would that prove? I suspect you would find a way to invalidate whatever I came up with. As far as your specific questions, I could not begin to speculate what your individual animals do or don't have. I do not know their origin, their past or their present, and even if I did, there is no way I would know what they have or have not been exposed to. Are you asking me to list specific diseases that are known to commonly be carried by certain species? Like cryptosporidium in Russians and pancakes? Or tortoise herpes that is common in Russians and some of the other Testudo sp.?

This conversation now seems pointless to continue to me. My opinion, based on what I have seen is that mixing species is risky and potentially harmful. Nothing you say will change that. I thought YOUR opinion was that it is not risky and not potentially harmful, but you have stated that is not correct (paraphrasing). So please tell me/us, what is your opinion about mixing species? What ever your opinion is, it seems highly doubtful that I will change it. So tell me, do you see a point in continuing on?


J, Your points about "experts" and CB vs. wild caught are valid and well made. Thank you for that. But CB does not equate to disease free. Certainly there is generally less risk from a CBB, and certainly one can be careful about what individuals are mixed. I will give you that. But having seen disastrous results, my point is only that mixing species is risky and should not be encouraged. Sure lots of other things are risky too, but I just don't see any benefit to taking THIS risk, especially since its so easy to avoid. It occurs to me that just like I did with Baoh, I have assumed (my bad) that I know what your opinion is on the matter of mixing species, but I cannot recall you actually stating it. So that I understand better what it is you are arguing for and against, may I ask, what is your opinion in mixing species?


Mike, I thought that was a very well worded, fair and balanced post. Thank you for attempting to see both sides.

Angela, thank you for the public vote of confidence and kind words.

 

[Baoh]

I saw Tom's original post as a reductio ad absurdum. It seems that Tom is frustrated when he sees people engaging in activities that he views as inherently harmful. I assumed he was referencing the keeping multiple species together thing too, so I read the post as Tom thinks keeping multiple species of tortoise in the same enclosure is as dangerous as sticking a knife in an outlet, and people who don't percieve the danger just haven't been shocked yet. IMO, adding the cartoon seemed like a good way to try to keep the debate light, not as a way to demean those whose opinions differ. Adding the cartoon could also be seen as offensive, so I don't fault anyone for taking the cartoon personally either.

The appropriate way to address a reductio is to either argue that the original "absurd" argument is not absurd, or that the comparison doesn't apply to the particular situation. I have seen others post on both fronts, how placing a knife into an outlet doesn't always have to be dangerous if you have the experience/knowledge necessary to avert danger, and how mixing species is not something that should be viewed as inherently dangerous on the basis that diseases/parasites do not harm with the same certainty that electicity does. To me, I think the analogy is good as both activities are associated with a known potential for harm, and it seems that the validity of the argument is resting on the premises involved in the spread and lethality of parasitic organisms.

Folks that agree that species should not be mixed because of parasites/diseases need to recognize that correlation does not imply causation. Tortoises who lived in mixed species setups and die en masse might be dead for a reason unrelated to the pathogens they contain upon necropsy.

Folks that argue that species can be mixed because diseases/parasites don't work the way layman think they do need to remember that sometimes correlation is a result of causation, even if the root cause has not yet been identified. Exceptions do not always disprove rules and the list of diseases whose mechanics and cures are still unknown is staggering.

I, for one, I am in favor of the better-safe-than-sorry position. I have never personally mixed species and had animals die. I have never personally mixed species and had animals live. I don't mix species. I also don't make it a point to sanitize my hands between handling species, but when one tortoise species lives in the basement and the other is outside I don't exactly think about spreading things;perhaps I should. I have had tortoises of the same species die due to aggression issues that I failed to acknowledge because I thought I was paying attention to my animals too well to listen to the advice of more seasoned tortoise veterans who saw the issue through the internet. Tortoises are not snakes, but when you hear about the differences between the way boas and pythons react to IBD... those of you with a better understanding of diseases could probably provide a very good argument for why IBD is not a good example of a disease that affects multiple species within a type of animal, but it is the scary reptile disease that I think about when it comes to cross-contamination threats.

Chris, I'm trying to make sure I read the papers you posted correctly. Thematically, the Dobson article suggests that the nastiest parasitic organisms that infect animals are those that find a way to hitch a ride and mutate on carrier species, with humans being listed as a carrier species of concern? And the Holt article suggests that parasitic organisms can be lethal to species that compete for resources with their preferred host, but are more likely to be lethal to species that prey on their preferred host? If I read both correctly, it seems that my tortoises are just as likely to cross-contaminate using me as a vector as they would were they living together. And my monitor lizard, as a predator, has significantly more to worry about from my tortoise's diseases than my sulcata does from my hingebacks? (Ignoring for a moment, of course, that the sulcata is CBB and the others are WC. And that my monitor may be mostly an insectivore in the wild and probably wouldn't prey on tortoises very often. I'm talking in broad themes here, not details.)

I personally don't view the asking of husbandry questions as a sign of inexperience. I had my hingebacks living quite comfortably for years before I found this forum and the only reason I joined and looked around is because I moved from FL to IN and found myself with difficulties maintaining humidity levels. Sometimes people find themselves facing new puzzles and a forum with... um, how many thousand members now?... doesn't seem like a bad place to get input for solving them.

Thank you for this very even-handed post. I appreciate it. To me, it presents a more complete perspective well.

 

[Redstrike]

I, for one, I am in favor of the better-safe-than-sorry position. I have never personally mixed species and had animals die. I have never personally mixed species and had animals live. I don't mix species. I also don't make it a point to sanitize my hands between handling species, but when one tortoise species lives in the basement and the other is outside I don't exactly think about spreading things;perhaps I should. I have had tortoises of the same species die due to aggression issues that I failed to acknowledge because I thought I was paying attention to my animals too well to listen to the advice of more seasoned tortoise veterans who saw the issue through the internet. Tortoises are not snakes, but when you hear about the differences between the way boas and pythons react to IBD... those of you with a better understanding of diseases could probably provide a very good argument for why IBD is not a good example of a disease that affects multiple species within a type of animal, but it is the scary reptile disease that I think about when it comes to cross-contamination threats.

Chris, I'm trying to make sure I read the papers you posted correctly. Thematically, the Dobson article suggests that the nastiest parasitic organisms that infect animals are those that find a way to hitch a ride and mutate on carrier species, with humans being listed as a carrier species of concern? And the Holt article suggests that parasitic organisms can be lethal to species that compete for resources with their preferred host, but are more likely to be lethal to species that prey on their preferred host? If I read both correctly, it seems that my tortoises are just as likely to cross-contaminate using me as a vector as they would were they living together. And my monitor lizard, as a predator, has significantly more to worry about from my tortoise's diseases than my sulcata does from my hingebacks? (Ignoring for a moment, of course, that the sulcata is CBB and the others are WC. And that my monitor may be mostly an insectivore in the wild and probably wouldn't prey on tortoises very often. I'm talking in broad themes here, not details.)

Hi Mike,
In all honesty, it's been a long time since I've read the papers, but from my recollection, you seem to have a good diagnosis of their general points. I simply wanted to present some sound, level-headed evidence in favor of not housing similar but different species together. We know tortoises are coprophagous and likely transmit parasites and pathogens readily as a result of this behavior. Your post is fine, but I'm becoming heavily disinterested in discussing any of this further, given the derailment of civility and respect that I'm seeing. I'm not interested in pissing matches.
I think I've posed my position well and don't see how I can contribute further to this discussion. There is no doubt, if you house two separate species together they may (or may not) exchange previously unencountered pathogens that they did not coevolve with, posing great risk for mortality. The introduction sections of both papers present this nicely.

 

[Baoh]

Baoh, you are correct in that I do not have "evidence" to present. I have asked several times now, what evidence is there? I know of no studies. If there are studies, I do not know how to find them. If I could get vet records and necropsy reports, what would that prove? I suspect you would find a way to invalidate whatever I came up with. As far as your specific questions, I could not begin to speculate what your individual animals do or don't have. I do not know their origin, their past or their present, and even if I did, there is no way I would know what they have or have not been exposed to. Are you asking me to list specific diseases that are known to commonly be carried by certain species? Like cryptosporidium in Russians and pancakes? Or tortoise herpes that is common in Russians and some of the other Testudo sp.?

This conversation now seems pointless to continue to me. My opinion, based on what I have seen is that mixing species is risky and potentially harmful. Nothing you say will change that. I thought YOUR opinion was that it is not risky and not potentially harmful, but you have stated that is not correct (paraphrasing). So please tell me/us, what is your opinion about mixing species? What ever your opinion is, it seems highly doubtful that I will change it. So tell me, do you see a point in continuing on?


J, Your points about "experts" and CB vs. wild caught are valid and well made. Thank you for that. But CB does not equate to disease free. Certainly there is generally less risk from a CBB, and certainly one can be careful about what individuals are mixed. I will give you that. But having seen disastrous results, my point is only that mixing species is risky and should not be encouraged. Sure lots of other things are risky too, but I just don't see any benefit to taking THIS risk, especially since its so easy to avoid. It occurs to me that just like I did with Baoh, I have assumed (my bad) that I know what your opinion is on the matter of mixing species, but I cannot recall you actually stating it. So that I understand better what it is you are arguing for and against, may I ask, what is your opinion in mixing species?


Mike, I thought that was a very well worded, fair and balanced post. Thank you for attempting to see both sides.

Angela, thank you for the public vote of confidence and kind words.

Vet records and necropsies showing what you claim would suggest there was substance to the argument in those specific instances and this is not all a bunch of confirmation bias yarn-spinning.

You said it is dangerous for me to mix my animals of different species. Back that up. Which pathogens are my animals carrying that present greater risk to their cohabitants than to members of their own kind?

Oh, it is all opinion now in the backpedal? You said it was fact. Foxhole conversion? I have stated my position multiple times in this thread. There is a paucity of direct evidence supporting your position of there being greater risk of mixing species, regardless of circumstance, and that is no foundation for the added prophetic assertion that I will induce additional harm to my animals as a result. My position, distilled, is that every situation is different and is worthy of evaluating on its own merit instead of blanket response without evidence. In addition, I have made mention that an animal of one species does not and cannot transmit a disease caused by an infectious pathogen to another, whether of its own or another species, if the animal does not possess the pathogen in the first place. You cannot realistically fire a bullet out of a gun that is not loaded. Finally, there is little evidence to show that the majority of pathogens of tortoises of one species will cause greater harm to tortoises of another species relative to transmission among its own kind. The possibility exists, but a conclusion of such across the board is an opinion and cannot be rightfully claimed as a fact by definition. I do not encourage or discourage species mixing. I recommend others make their own informed decisions as I have made for my situation. I am not seeking to change anyone's opinion. That is one of the many differences in our approaches. As I said earlier, I am not here to proselytize and have no desire for it. Gaining a following is not among my goals.

Nobody said CB means disease free. However, CB can mean disease free. Properly kept WC can eventually mean that, too, although I would personally place greater bets on known unexposed CB. In the paper I attached, they showed CB removed the risk of pathogenic presence of Mycoplasma agassizii in that segregated population. Exposure after the fact would negate this, but that is always the case and this is being shown in the context of a single species for the example of how one can divorce the pathogen aspect from the species aspect.

Sulcatas kill sulcatas. Snappers kill snappers. Well-matched individuals of different species may not even pose as much risk in certain specific circumstances as same species cohabitation.

 

[Tom]

Evidence: Laboratory results of these instances that are claimed to have taken place in your presence. Organism identification with genomic confirmation of source such that host 1 is confirmed to have the same genomic ID of the organism in host two. Before without infection and after with infection. Statistically significant sample size. Arms of intra-specific infection versus arms of inter-specific infection that show the latter is more deleterious than the former in previously verified healthy animals via the same methods used to determine infection.

Your word is not evidence. See above.

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I just spent nearly a thousand dollars total over the last month to diagnose a mystery illness on one single tortoise that I bought months ago. It was captive bred and came from a compound that houses many species.

To provided the standard of evidence that you require would take months or years and cost thousands and thousands of dollars.

So lets put this in perspective in the real world: A guy with a tortoise compound or a back yard, not a lab, buys some tortoises of different species and puts them all in the same pen together. They can be captive bred or wc or what ever you want. Down the road, some or all of these tortoises get a disease and or die. If they died they guy is out hundreds or thousands of dollars. If they are sick, he's spending hundreds on vet bills. Once they are dead, in order for you to believe that it had something to do with mixing species, he should then fork out thousands more for professionally performed necropsies performed at an accredited lab by an accredited necropsy specialist? Of course he would have had to spend thousands of dollars up front to diagnose and prove what the tortoises did and did not have before they were mixed. Let us not forget that some of these pathogens are very difficult, if not impossible to diagnose without a necropsy. So that means that up front a few tortoises would have to be sacrificed for necropsy, but even then, that would only prove to you that those necropsied individuals did or did not have a certain pathogen. So this guy would have to spend thousands up front, and then thousands after his disaster in order to conclusively prove to you that it was caused by mixing species? In order to provide "evidence" of it? Now of course this would only be one guy and one situation, and so MANY people would have to do this, to satisfy your need for indisputable proof.

Baoh, I cannot meet your standard of proof. Not today, not anytime soon. If I win the lottery and I have loads of money and lots of time on my hands, I might decide to pursue this course. Of course at that point, I will be enjoying life so much that I probably won't care if I can offer "proof" of things that I know to be true.

Everyone has their standards. I now understand your standards and I am unable to meet them. Please remember that because I cannot offer the proof that you require does not mean that my opinion in this matter is not correct, it just means that I cannot meet YOUR standard of proof.

My requirements of proof are significantly lower. If I know a guy who has some redfoots and they are fine for many years, and then one day he puts some russians in their pen, and the next thing you know the redfoots start dying of a disease that russians are known to commonly carry, that is enough proof for me. Or if a guy in Asia has a mix of species all living together and comes onto a public forum and admits that he lost a radiated due to mixing species, I believe him. Not scientific at all, but I guess I am easily swayed. When I have someone like Yvonne who runs a rescue and has handled thousands of tortoises for decades do a post that she has also seen problems from mixing species, that is enough for me. When multiple importers and wholesalers tell me the same story I believe them too. When respected breeders share their stories at public conferences, I believe them too. I know, I know this is one of the "group fallacies" or something like that, right? Or was it the "appeal" to something or other fallacy? In any case it may not be up to your scientific standards, but it is enough for me, and it is the reason why my opinion is that mixing species is not a good practice.

I think I can end our arguing with this statement: "I Tom, from tortoiseforum.org, have seen anecdotal evidence over many years that leads me to have the OPINION that mixing species of tortoises can lead to the spread of disease and the death of some tortoises. I cannot offer scientific proof of this."

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One more point I want to make about facts. Whether a person believes it or not, a fact is still a fact. Example: My name is Tom. This is a fact. Some people may not believe it. Some people may require official documentation before they will be convinced, but that does not mean it is not a fact. Now I might have made that name up for the internet or I might have phony "official" documentation, in which case the statement would not be a fact. So really what good is the paperwork anyway? We all know from watching the news that statistics, figures, paperwork and documentation can be twisted, falsified, skewed, or reported genuinely, to prove or disprove any point. Documentation would not make my fact any more or less factual. It would just be a useful tool to convince other people of my fact.

The point is that regardless of whether someone does or does not have thousands of dollars of legitimate lab work to prove what they assert as fact, does not make it a fact and it does not make it not a fact. It just makes it easier for either side to argue one way or the other. If I had said lab work would the side opposing me simply capitulate, even though they still don't believe it, or would it just make my argument more credible? It seems to me that the issue here is one man's credibility, and not whether or not tortoises of different species can share diseases and should or shouldn't be housed together.

Sad, if that's the case.

 

[Baoh]

Your compound houses multiple species, too. Did tests identify the source of the illness? How was the vector identified to exclusion of all else?

No, I would not suggest "some guy". I would suggest a qualified professional doing this with a grant and proper experimental design and methodology instead of the scientific equivalent of casting chicken bones.

My standards require control. You are describing jumping to the conclusion without creating a distinct path between root cause and effect. That is just slapping variables together and then approaching future events with the same preconception.

As for examples that run counter to yours and those of the people you listed, there are individual accounts like mine and there are myriad zoos and parks functioning without problems. Also, the inconvenient matter of the various species that interact in natural settings without decimation.

For anyone who thinks they are adequately separating their different species such that no cross-contamination of surfaces is occurring despite intent, I invite you to purchase Glo Germ and use it for a week to a month without checking for it and using your normal "clean" husbandry practices. After that significant period of time, use the UV light. I have used this to demonstrate points of failure in the practice of rigorous aseptic technique to folks who felt they were doing an adequate job at preventing surface contamination. It is a very interesting little exercise. People may find that their "separate" species are very much in contact with one another on a typically invisible level beyond simple airborne transmission.

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That is why we call it evidence, Tom, and not proof. My responses tend to be drama-free on their own. No need to inject any, as I discuss the merit of ideas and not so much people, which is quite different from how this thread was started.

 

[stells2]

I have been away for a while... nice to see this forum hasn't changed though... and people still get jumped on and banned for challenging Tom... its what has kept myself away... and also others... nice one TFO... i expect i too will be banned AGAIN later... since one of the very first posts i made when i came back on here was removed by mods on Tom's say so...

Tom... you don't except different concepts... you do not have 25 years professional experience... you messed up your first lot of tortoises and are now trying to put it right... that is not 25 years PROFESSIONAL experience... you still have an ego the size of a house... i remember when you first signed up... as Roachman... you didn't have a clue... its laughable how many little followers you have... but thats what you wanted... and thats why you keep having to put up threads such as this...

Remember people... there is more than one way to keep these animals... Toms way is not the only way... and is not a new theory patented by him... the humidity theory has been around for quite sometime... some people can successfully mix species (not that i do) but i can think of a few off the top of my head...

You can either be a sheep... or you can discover there is a whole different world out there away from Tom's theorys...

 

[Yvonne G]

Ok, all members: This is your official moderator notice. This is not a bash Tom thread. It is also not a "I love Tom" thread. If you have an opinion about sticking a knife in an electical outlet, or whatever the analogy was referring to, then feel free to state it, but please be civil to other members and don't resort to name-calling or bashing.

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I really don't see that this particular thread has done much in the way of serving the tortoise-keepers of the world. I'm closing the thread until I hear from the other moderators about it.