A Recurring Issue

[Baoh]

J, first of all I like you and enjoy reading your posts. I did not intend to insult or offend you or anyone. Now I mean this genuinely, I really like your term "big league". Very clever and illustrative. However, I did not TRY to big league you, I DID big league you. 25 years of professional experience with ANYTHING is "big league". But please understand I did not explain my level of experience to "one up" anyone, I did it to try to illustrate that I have seen a lot of things during all that time. I could not insult you or your level of experience because I have no idea what it is. My explanation of where I've been was also an invitation for you to say what you have seen and done and for how long. I do believe here is an aspect of quality over quantity sometimes, so its not all about the number of years either.

Now I will elaborate on what I have seen in reference to the other thread. I have seen tortoises die from diseases they caught because they were housed with tortoises from other continents. Is that enough elaboration? In one case there were russians, redfoots and sulcatas all living together for a couple of years. Things were not quite right all the time, but they were alive. Within a six month period, all of them died. Necropsy revealed multiple infestations and infections not commonly seen in any of the species that had it, but commonly seen in the species they were housed with. Nobody wrote a scientific paper about it for me to quote. There really wasn't anything to write. These three species shared each other's diseases and died. Don't go getting all hung up on the details and trying to prove me wrong about this one case. I've seen it dozens of times and so has anyone else who has been around large collections of tortoises and reptiles.

My point is that the outcome of mixing species IS known and it IS bad, eventually. I don't say what I say because its just my opinion it IS based on fact. I have seen many tortoise die of foreign diseases from other species. For cryin' out loud, look at the mycoplasma infection in the CDT population. There was just a post last night where a guy admitted losing a radiated tortoise due to mixing species and he lamented that he had to learn "the hard way". If I can help it, I'd like to help some people avoid learning the hard way.

.. and just because you can stick a knife in one side of an outlet without getting shocked, does not make it smart, and does not mean it should be recommended or encouraged in others.

Verifiable facts > Anecdotal evidence

On the Internet, everyone is an expert and has some anecdote to prove their point. Online, one-upmanship is the name of the game, which is why I do not feel the need to quantify my experience in terms of years. Next thing you know, we'll have someone posting about how their g-g-grandfather was on the HMS Beagle.

Jaizei, I can understand your position with verifiable facts > Anecdotal evidence, but there are underlying (and verifiable) facts in support of Tom's stance on the deleterious results seen from multi-species housing.

I'm going to use wild ungulates in North America as an example. I'm from Maine, and before the colonial times (perhaps during, my history is terrible) we had woodland caribou, moose, and wolves. There were few if any white-tailed deer in our forests, perhaps tiny populations in the southern portion of the state. Once we starting logging and extirpated wolves, white-tailed deer shifted their range into all of ME, carrying with it a very common parasite: Brain worm. Brain worm lives between the brain membrane and skull cavity as well as most of the CNS in white-tailed deer, remaining relatively harmless to the host (sign of a good parasite). Eventually, eggs are cast into deer feces, where snails consume them and act as a secondary host. Deer eat the snails, perpetuating the cycle. Now, once white-tailed deer ranges started over lapping with woodland caribou, their populations crashed. Moose also weren't fairing as well, but seemed to manage okay (and still do in much of the state). The fact is, brain worm did not evolve with Moose or woodland caribou and rather than maintaing a stasis with them, they bore into the brain and CNS tissues, killing the host. Woodland caribou are now extirpated (locally extinct throughout Maine) and moose with brain worm are put down every year.

I don't want to come across the wrong way here, or sound too aggressive, but if you want facts, this is an axiom in all biology: parasites and diseases from different species can be devastatingly lethal when introduced to a novel host. This is a fact
Housing multiple species together is not a good idea.

If you would show me direct connection between a specific instance of captive bred tortoises of different species contacting each other that resulted in a specific pathogen wiping large populations of them out, I would love to read it. I tried the peer-reviewed sources, but I am sure you and I both are surprised that that well came up dry. To personify them, iridoviruses do not mind too much whether the transmission is within a species or across two (or three, or four, or genera, or family, or order, or class...). ChHV, to personify again, does not care if transmission is between two marginata, two graeca, or one of each.

Otherwise, the context is as different as comparing my situation to H5N1 and humans. I guess we should hermetically seal ourselves away from all avians, too, just in case. After all, they are not of our species.

---

I don't have science or articles to back me up, but I still believe in not mixing species. My evidence is all anecdotal. I've been operating a turtle/tortoise rescue here in Central California for many years and have taken in sick tortoises people didn't want to have to spend money on. I've heard quite a few times about how they had a desert tortoise (or a sulcata or fill in the blank) and decided to get another tortoise to keep it company, so they got a different kind of tortoise. Now one or the other tortoise is sick, will you take it? I have to put 2 and 2 together and come up with the fact that one of these tortoises got sick from being with the other one. It was usually a sulcata/desert tortoise mix.

I see nothing wrong with this. I would not mix sulcatas with DTs, either, personally.

 

[Redstrike]

If you would show me direct connection between a specific instance of captive bred tortoises of different species contacting each other that resulted in a specific pathogen wiping large populations of them out, I would love to read it. I tried the peer-reviewed sources, but I am sure you and I both are surprised that that well came up dry. To personify them, iridoviruses do not mind too much whether the transmission is within a species or across two (or three, or four, or genera, or family, or order, or class...). ChHV, to personify again, does not care if transmission is between two marginata, two graeca, or one of each.

Otherwise, the context is as different as comparing my situation to H5N1 and humans. I guess we should hermetically seal ourselves away from all avians, too, just in case. After all, they are not of our species.

Yea, there aren't many studies on captive animals...nothing concrete on captive tortoises, but that doesn't hide the fact that you and I have both outlined above: pathogens are capable of jumping from species and generas and sometimes further up (or down, depending how you look at it) the phylogenetic line.

I wouldn't jump the gun here and seal myself off from other phyla in some over-arching fear of pathogen transmission - that wasn't the point I was trying to address. My point was, two closely related families or genera may pass novel parasites/viruses to one another in a captive setting. Using the ungulates as an example we know of in the wild is, I find, reasonable. There are countless other examples, but I'm going to have to leave you with this...I just can't find the time to keep working on this debate.

Ending point: housing separate species together is probably not a good idea. Hosts coevolved with pathogens and parasites, introducing them to novel hosts could result in no effect (pathogen/parasite doesn't recognize the host) or can be lethal (pathogen/parasite recognizes host, host cannot cope with novel invader).

 

[Tony the tank]

---

Considering the age of the photo does anyone else think johnny (if that is his real name) is dead?

If the outlet didn't get him, he's probably died of old age by now.
[/quote]


From what I understand.John as he prefered to be called...Died of natural causes after living a well to do life off the patent he filed on the GFI outlet

 

[Yvonne G]

LOL!!!!!

---

I was searching the 'net to see if I could find where it said that "they" thought the mycoplasma agassizii had been introduced to desert tortoises through release of exotic tortoises into the desert and I came up with this interview. Its a pretty good read, and it says the mycoplasma probably did NOT come from the release of exotic tortoises. It really has nothing to do with the debate here, but I thought it was good reading to share.

http://www.tortoise.org/archives/brown1.html

 

[Baoh]

If you would show me direct connection between a specific instance of captive bred tortoises of different species contacting each other that resulted in a specific pathogen wiping large populations of them out, I would love to read it. I tried the peer-reviewed sources, but I am sure you and I both are surprised that that well came up dry. To personify them, iridoviruses do not mind too much whether the transmission is within a species or across two (or three, or four, or genera, or family, or order, or class...). ChHV, to personify again, does not care if transmission is between two marginata, two graeca, or one of each.

Otherwise, the context is as different as comparing my situation to H5N1 and humans. I guess we should hermetically seal ourselves away from all avians, too, just in case. After all, they are not of our species.

Yea, there aren't many studies on captive animals...nothing concrete on captive tortoises, but that doesn't hide the fact that you and I have both outlined above: pathogens are capable of jumping from species and generas and sometimes further up (or down, depending how you look at it) the phylogenetic line.

I wouldn't jump the gun here and seal myself off from other phyla in some over-arching fear of pathogen transmission - that wasn't the point I was trying to address. My point was, two closely related families or genera may pass novel parasites/viruses to one another in a captive setting. Using the ungulates as an example we know of in the wild is, I find, reasonable. There are countless other examples, but I'm going to have to leave you with this...I just can't find the time to keep working on this debate.

Ending point: housing separate species together is probably not a good idea. Hosts coevolved with pathogens and parasites, introducing them to novel hosts could result in no effect (pathogen/parasite doesn't recognize the host) or can be lethal (pathogen/parasite recognizes host, host cannot cope with novel invader).

I have run across an interesting study regarding colonization versus infection of DTs by Mycoplasma agassizii, actually. I was interested to see the natural immunity aspects and there are issues of false positives due to ELISA potentially registering a positive result in animals that have either acquired or natural immunity. To the latter point, the CB animals did not have the organism present, and so cannot transmit what they do not possess. If I have CB X that is not carrying a pathogen and it meets CB Y that is not carrying a pathogen, there is nothing for them to infect each other with. This is one dimension of why I am not especially alarmed by the concept as long as certain degrees of care are taken. Even within a species, for example, I would not necessarily even introduce multiple WC animals of the same species to each other due to compounding parasite loads in close quarters. To me, the matter of species mixing is not an all-or-nothing situation. I neither promote nor discourage it and see how it can be done with greater and lesser degrees of risk just as I see ways of keeping monospecific groups that could pose greater and lesser degrees of risk.

---

LOL!!!!!

---

I was searching the 'net to see if I could find where it said that "they" thought the mycoplasma agassizii had been introduced to desert tortoises through release of exotic tortoises into the desert and I came up with this interview. Its a pretty good read, and it says the mycoplasma probably did NOT come from the release of exotic tortoises. It really has nothing to do with the debate here, but I thought it was good reading to share.

http://www.tortoise.org/archives/brown1.html

---

Indeed. The agassizii species likely is an endemic colonial in certain contexts and then can progress to become pathogenic if the situation is fit for it. It also appears that some individuals may overcome active infection.

The paper I attached is an interesting read.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

For most of my life that I can remember my sister has operated a turtle and tortoise rescue. She finally got me involved after I had an on the job injury. She taught me a lot. One of the things she taught me was to never mix species. But of course, I am who I am and after a while I ran out of room so I mixed CDT and the aforementioned Sulcata. Things were fine for a long time but then my DT's started to get sick, some were very sick and we thought they were going to die. I took them to the Vet and he ran the tests that they run and he told me that the DT's had a pathogen that he named and I can't remember and wouldn't know how to spell. He guesstimated from the way the tests looked that the DT's got a disease from the Sulcata. I don't remember all the details anymore so don't ask me. But that was the one and only example I have from mixing species, because I haven't ever mixed species since then. That experience taught me to listen to those who came before me. Listen to those who are more experienced and sometimes I actually do...

 

[Baoh]

I am sorry your animals suffered from a negative experience as they did.

I imagine quite a few of us have cared for a significant variety of species. In terms of tortoises, I have kept Western Hermann's, Macedonian/Greek (as in literally from there) Hermann's, Marginated, Russian, Ibera Greek, Golden Greek, "Black" Greek, Egyptian, Redfoot, Yellowfoot, Gpp, Gpb, Sulcata, Burmese Brown, Burmese Black, Aldabra, and had some Gopherus on my land when I lived in Florida. Only the Egyptians and the Gophers were prevented from having direct contact with other tortoise species, with the others allowed contact on an individually assessed basis of size, history, health, and temperament. Those are just the tortoises. I have had the good fortune of breeding, since before a teenager through today, hundreds from among most of the the Testudo groups I kept over the ears until I decided to sell off almost all of them and focus on other things. Only this year have I decided to try my hand at breeding a couple of other types.

I have heard of and seen a number of bad results from mixing. I have seen with my own eyes many more neutral results in private collections, zoos, and in the wild. I have actually seen more negative situations (diseases, bullying, breeding stresses, violence, and death) arise when some types have been kept with their own kind (to be clear, I am not saying keeping mixed over separate provides a benefit, either). If you did not go with what has worked for you, it would seem odd to me. So, too, would it seem odd to me to not go with what has worked for me over decades and is continuing to work for me as of this morning.

 

[dmmj]

Personally I would not want to take the risk.

 

[Lulu]

So the butter knife in the outlet is mixing species? Why didn't you just say so, Tom? Your OP read differently than that to me.

I have little to add, except that I noticed that the San Diego Zoo mixes species, especially torts with other herps. As an example, I noticed that the marginated tortoises are housed with legless lizards. I happen to like legless lizards, but it was a little weird to see them all laying in a big herp pile with the torts in the sun.

 

[lynnedit]

So the butter knife in the outlet is mixing species? Why didn't you just say so, Tom? Your OP read differently than that to me.

I have little to add, except that I noticed that the San Diego Zoo mixes species, especially torts with other herps. As an example, I noticed that the marginated tortoises are housed with legless lizards. I happen to like legless lizards, but it was a little weird to see them all laying in a big herp pile with the torts in the sun.

What a relief to have the core of this thread explained , although it has been quite interesting!
Being a novice, I would probably not mix species because I, too, would not take the chance. Also because many have different environmental needs.
I don't have anything else to contribute either, except I don't see the evolutionary advantage of being legless, unless they have fins too, hmmm...

 

[Tom]

Why use so many words to simply say you have no verifiable objective data?

If there are too many uncontrollable variables, then how are you controlling for them when jumping to conclusions and assigning a root cause that you assert that professionals could not in a rigorously designed study? You cannot have it both ways. Either this cannot be controlled well enough to study and, therefore, conclude, or it can.

Tortoises also may potentially die from catching diseases from the same species. The sky is falling. Let us never let them ever meet their own kind because of an unquantified risk. You can never be too safe, right? We weigh the risks and make our choices. Proselytizing based on opinion circles is not my desire. Perhaps because you want so badly to be seen as some sort of authority on the matter, it is important to you. Internet "cred" does not happen to fall within my value system.

I have captive born Aldabras, Gpps, Sulcatas, Burmese Blacks, Burmese Browns, and Western Hermann's, among others. Which of these is carrying which specific high-mortality pathogens that are threats to which of these other species that are not threats to their own species such that there is especially grave concern that inter-specific contact is much more likely to be lethal than intra-specific contact? Name which of my tortoises are presenting high quantifiable risk to which of my other tortoises by transimitting which organisms since you are confident enough to tell me and others there is a serious risk as if fact when no such fact has been presented in this specific context.

How come we do not worry to this extent regarding most aquatic turtles? Maybe the risk is not the epidemiological nightmare some make it out to be. Natural selection is a pretty nifty mechanism and tortoises have been around for a long time with lots of contact with others as well as a great many other organisms. If you had studied fibropapillomatosis, you would know that it often does not matter regarding species segregation. The green, ridley, loggerhead, and leatherback can all infect each other as well as members of their own species. The physiology is similar enough for hosting. If you wish to this is not the case in tortoises, please cite the specific physiological basis and mechanism.

Then there are all of the non-chelonian species that our tortoises come into contact with that people omit from their minds when talking about mixing species and preventing contact.

If you reply, please have the wherewithal to avoid the commonly employed fallacies of ignoring the middle, strawman, against the man, appeal to authority, and appeal to popularity.

Your level of understanding of debate techniques is of no interest to me and your subtle, cleverly worded slights have not gone unnoticed. I have tried to be mature and civil with you, but you continue try and out-word me. Please put the debate handbook down, and stop trying to sound like you are more intelligent than everyone else.

Simply stated, because I have no scientific studies demonstrating my point, does not mean it is not correct. Frankly, I don't think that such studies exist, but if they did, and if I could find them, I would certainly present them to you. Like wise, I can produce no studies proving the existence of air, but I have no problem asserting to anyone that air exists. Similarly, I have seen many tortoise die due to mixing species. Because studies do not exist, or I cannot find them, does not make this untrue. Why do you think it is okay to dismiss what I have told you that I have personally seem. That is analogous to calling me a liar. Do you think that I have not seen these things and that I am lying? For what purpose? What do I gain from telling people not to do something that I have personally witness killing tortoises, if it is not true? Do I have an underhanded plan to segregate the tortoises of the world for my own amusement? If you want studies and research papers then YOU spend your time hunting for them. I have better things to do and searching around for info to prove you wrong is not high on my list. I don't need scientist to tell me what I already know is true because I have personally experienced it.

Rather than me repeat again that I do not know of any studies, how about we try this another way? For me to be wrong about this, it means that you must be right. In your eyes, my opinion is not valid with out indisputable scientific proof. Where is your scientific proof that tortoises from different continents CANNOT exchange diseases and become sick or die from them. If you continue to dismiss my assertions as uneducated drivel by an internet ego-maniac, then you must be sitting on loads of studies, proving me wrong. Lets see it.

Further, there is no need to go to ridiculous extremes about the "sky is falling". We are all well aware of disease transmission and which tortoises can get what and from where. What you are failing to understand, because it has not happened to you, YET, is that mixing species tremendously increases the risk of individual tortoises catching a disease or pathogen that it is not equipped to handle. I think the ungulate example illustrates this perfectly well. And I do worry about mixing aquatic species, for your information. I don't do it, and I recommend against it. I can't stop you from playing russian roulette with your own animals, but I can continue to help other people avoid the mistake that you are making.

 

[Tom]

HK, the last guy that tried this failed. You will too.

 

[jaizei]

Why use so many words to simply say you have no verifiable objective data?

If there are too many uncontrollable variables, then how are you controlling for them when jumping to conclusions and assigning a root cause that you assert that professionals could not in a rigorously designed study? You cannot have it both ways. Either this cannot be controlled well enough to study and, therefore, conclude, or it can.

Tortoises also may potentially die from catching diseases from the same species. The sky is falling. Let us never let them ever meet their own kind because of an unquantified risk. You can never be too safe, right? We weigh the risks and make our choices. Proselytizing based on opinion circles is not my desire. Perhaps because you want so badly to be seen as some sort of authority on the matter, it is important to you. Internet "cred" does not happen to fall within my value system.

I have captive born Aldabras, Gpps, Sulcatas, Burmese Blacks, Burmese Browns, and Western Hermann's, among others. Which of these is carrying which specific high-mortality pathogens that are threats to which of these other species that are not threats to their own species such that there is especially grave concern that inter-specific contact is much more likely to be lethal than intra-specific contact? Name which of my tortoises are presenting high quantifiable risk to which of my other tortoises by transimitting which organisms since you are confident enough to tell me and others there is a serious risk as if fact when no such fact has been presented in this specific context.

How come we do not worry to this extent regarding most aquatic turtles? Maybe the risk is not the epidemiological nightmare some make it out to be. Natural selection is a pretty nifty mechanism and tortoises have been around for a long time with lots of contact with others as well as a great many other organisms. If you had studied fibropapillomatosis, you would know that it often does not matter regarding species segregation. The green, ridley, loggerhead, and leatherback can all infect each other as well as members of their own species. The physiology is similar enough for hosting. If you wish to this is not the case in tortoises, please cite the specific physiological basis and mechanism.

Then there are all of the non-chelonian species that our tortoises come into contact with that people omit from their minds when talking about mixing species and preventing contact.

If you reply, please have the wherewithal to avoid the commonly employed fallacies of ignoring the middle, strawman, against the man, appeal to authority, and appeal to popularity.

Your level of understanding of debate techniques is of no interest to me and your subtle, cleverly worded slights have not gone unnoticed. I have tried to be mature and civil with you, but you continue try and out-word me. Please put the debate handbook down, and stop trying to sound like you are more intelligent than everyone else.

Simply stated, because I have no scientific studies demonstrating my point, does not mean it is not correct. Frankly, I don't think that such studies exist, but if they did, and if I could find them, I would certainly present them to you. Like wise, I can produce no studies proving the existence of air, but I have no problem asserting to anyone that air exists. Similarly, I have seen many tortoise die due to mixing species. Because studies do not exist, or I cannot find them, does not make this untrue. Why do you think it is okay to dismiss what I have told you that I have personally seem. That is analogous to calling me a liar. Do you think that I have not seen these things and that I am lying? For what purpose? What do I gain from telling people not to do something that I have personally witness killing tortoises, if it is not true? Do I have an underhanded plan to segregate the tortoises of the world for my own amusement? If you want studies and research papers then YOU spend your time hunting for them. I have better things to do and searching around for info to prove you wrong is not high on my list. I don't need scientist to tell me what I already know is true because I have personally experienced it.

Rather than me repeat again that I do not know of any studies, how about we try this another way? For me to be wrong about this, it means that you must be right. In your eyes, my opinion is not valid with out indisputable scientific proof. Where is your scientific proof that tortoises from different continents CANNOT exchange diseases and become sick or die from them. If you continue to dismiss my assertions as uneducated drivel by an internet ego-maniac, then you must be sitting on loads of studies, proving me wrong. Lets see it.

Further, there is no need to go to ridiculous extremes about the "sky is falling". We are all well aware of disease transmission and which tortoises can get what and from where. What you are failing to understand, because it has not happened to you, YET, is that mixing species tremendously increases the risk of individual tortoises catching a disease or pathogen that it is not equipped to handle. I think the ungulate example illustrates this perfectly well. And I do worry about mixing aquatic species, for your information. I don't do it, and I recommend against it. I can't stop you from playing russian roulette with your own animals, but I can continue to help other people avoid the mistake that you are making.

My original question was concerning the 'pathogens' present in cb hatchlings. If they are present, then where do they come from? Are they innate to one species or another?


http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/ci/faraday/lect2.html
You're welcome.

 

[Tom]

Okay, now go find us the studies that prove or disprove that mixing species is a bad idea, since you have a knack for research.

 

[Lulu]

Tom, no one is throwing out fancy debate moves to try to appear smarter than anyone else, they're merely asking for evidence to support your assertions. Without evidence, they're nothing more than opinions. You can make the case that they're opinions based on whatever years of husbandry or experience you have, but then you do open the door to requests to back that up as well.

Baoh is not making a positive assertion. You are. He is under no obligation to prove a negative. You are making an assertion. You should be able to back that up with evidence, or it is an opinion and should be qualified as such.

I have been giving you the benefit of the doubt about your first post and that the message you meant to convey was not as insulting to the intelligence and experience of the great folks in this group as it initially came across, but I'm beginning to wonder based on some of the posts that followed. For the record, I have specifically considered and discarded the advice of some on here (even yours), and specifically considered and adopted the advice of others (even Jacqui's ).

Edit: BTW, the only one I saw say the sky is falling is you... or what else was that knife in outlet analogy supposed to mean?

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

Here I thought this was just a funny joke about a stubborn little boy.. I should of known better lol

More on the point is why would someone ever do something that has been proven to kill and make tortoises sick...maybe not by "official'" scientists but by people...real tortoise people. Why would those people continue to mix species , which is incredible unnatural, when they have been told by multiple and multiple tortoise lovers that it could possible kill the tortoises ?
I would think that people would just separate the tortoises because no one would want even the possibility of their tortoises dying... it may not be simple to just separate them when they keep many different kinds , it is a FACT that mixing species puts your tortoises more at risk of sickness and death, this fact can be disclaimed or just plain ignored so that people don't have to separate their different tortoise species and continue to keep tons of different species
In the end in though I still miss the fact of why with many, many people saying that its bad and can cause sickness and death because it has happened to them in real life the mixing would continue? It is my personal opinion that the tortoises, all animals really that someone keeps, well being should be put first, above all other things and if that can not be done then dont have the animals or get the means to put their health first and foremost otherwise its not fair to the animals. I know full well though that not everyone shares this belief and keeps as many animals as they want and how they want despite the animals needs and health

 

[Redstrike]

Pathogens and parasites jump around (phylogenetically), tortoises aren't an exception. See attached papers.

 

[jaizei]

Okay, now go find us the studies that prove or disprove that mixing species is a bad idea, since you have a knack for research.

I have no interest in proving or disproving anything, my interest is in knowledge and learning. Boah, Redstrike and others, have posted quite a bit of interesting information. You seem to have a knack for glossing over the actual 'meat' of the posts and focusing on the trivial 'slights.'

 

[Yvonne G]

Whatever happened to our idea here on the forum that everyone, and that means EVERYONE, is allowed to have their own opinion. Boah has an opinion, AK (don't know his name ) has an opinion, I have many opinions. We, NONE of us, have to prove our opinions. So if Tom believes that it is bad to mix species, he is allowed to have that opinion and he doesn't have to offer proof. That's what we've always stressed here on the forum. "Please feel free to state your opinion." What's so wrong with saying, "Ok, Tom, I see that you really believe that it is bad to mix species. I accept that that is your opinion. Personally, I don't agree with it and my opinion is that it is perfectly fine to mix species." End of story. Why this big debate?

 

[Jacqui]

My personal thought would be the way this "difference of opinion" was taken out of the thread it started in and then posed the way it was in the opening post of this thread.... but that it just my own thought as to why this debate happened the way it did.