Coconut Oil

[glitch4200]

*9 Month Update*

Sorry this update is late. Super busy lately.

I am into my 9th month of coconut oil applications for my male Russian tortoise Nibbles & about 7 months of applications to my female Russian tort.

Nibbles: 9 months oiled 2x to 4x a week.

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My female Russian after 7 months of applications.




Nibbles had an eye issue this last month that was fully resolved. So I didn't coconut him for a good week or so this last month . Otherwise no difference in activity, no abnormal sores, no infections, no cooked tortoise platters.

I am noticing big growth of the alpha keratin in Napebbles, my female Russian. She is still smooth and she'll is still nice and hard on both of them.

 

[glitch4200]

Pics didn't upload of nibble in update.

 

[Alaskamike]

It would be hard for anyone to argue with the success of those shells. I've not seen many Russians that look that good, although frequently they are purchased as adults in the pet stores, and raised initially in very dry environments.

Smooth shells, or lumpy ones are an outward physical sign of the mechanics of the shell growth, and can identify underlying problems with potential MBD , improper nutrition, lack of exercise, or water. All are important markers for overall health. We all know it is not just cosmetic.

My attention in this thread has been more in the biology and chemistry of EVCO and tortoise shells and this information you have readily and I must say. very clearly provided, as well as detailed explanations of the challenges of overhead lighting and heat sources. Some very skilled keepers mitigate for this by using smaller lamps, and properly spreading them out. They use timers, thermostat controlled switches, etc. These skilled keepers are also very careful about the distance lamps are from shells and ambient temps are checked often to assure a proper varied environment. But as you pointed out earlier in this thread, these are all to often the exception - not the "rule".

It continues to be a struggle to get proper husbandry information to the general tort keeping public. Those who come to a site like the Tortoise Forum are so often surprised at the wealth of 'best care' information and leading edge advice. As well as the contradictions from what they have always believed, learned 10 years ago, or were told when they bought the tortoise.

The challenges to EVCO one by one seem to be answered - to my satisfaction anyway
- Its not natural (neither is much of the food we feed our torts, keeping them confined, or antibiotic cream when they need it)
- Its breaks down to a harmful substance (It does not, has a high heat tolerance )
- It blocks too much UV (Not if you use on shell, as the beneficial light is absorbed through he skin mainly to aid in calcium metabolism)
- It only makes the shell "pretty" (yes, it does that, but that is a side effect, not the purpose)
- If the tort has the right humidity, and water availability , the EVCO serves no purpose - This last one I want to address

I believe the EVCO can serve another purpose that may show benefit to our torts, even in environments like mine; South Florida - outdoor raising, natural sunlight, high humidity (40-99%) natural foods, and lots of available water. And that has to do with the anti-bacterial, and anti-fungal (mold and mildew) properties of EVCO.

We may find that the application can help avoid issues like shell rot and fungal growth on caprice and plastron, For that reason I have been applying it about once a week, sometimes a bit longer in between. I have not been 'religious ' about it, but do think it is worth the effort to use it on this basis.

We would all like to see all tortoises raised in controlled humidity environments with the best care; controlled heat and UV lights - but reality tells us not everyone can, or will do this. even in these high quality environments, mold and fungus can be an issue. For those who are raising your tortoises on open table tops indoors, in aquariums, under heat and full spectrum lamps, I recommend using the EVCO as a routine part of care.

-

 

[glitch4200]

*10 month update*

First set of pics is of Nibbles after about 10 months of coconut oil applications to the shell and some times skin of my tortoise up too 4x a week.





Now Napebbles has been receiving coconut oil applications since the first day I got her which was December 3rd, 2013. So for 7.5 months now, she has recieved up too 4x coconut oil applications a week.






Both have still maintained their routines, they are soaked almost every single day for as long as they would like to be.. Their habitats are sprayed down at least 1x a day heavily. I keep their temps at 26c or 85 f ambient and 36c or 96f basking zones. Their hides act as their dark cool moist hiding grounds to escape the ambient heat and light.

My fiance is about to have our baby any day now, so I moved to a new room in my house as my old room is now the baby room. So I had to move their habitats. They are along a wall now.

 

[glitch4200]

Now back to where I was.. I think I have figured out pyramiding on a biological and biochemical level. And why coconut oil is such a benefit to a Tortoise subjected unfiltered infrared light.

Before I begin I would like to publicly announce.. That my friend and I have successfully filtered infrared light in a practical way for all tortoise keepers to use to filter your artificial lamps.. We have successfully figured out a cost effective way to filter infrared light so no tortoise is ever subjected to dehydrating 'unfiltered' infrared when housed under Any type of infrared emitting bulb. We are currently in prototyping stage, we have are provisional patent paperwork filled out and ready to be sent in to label our invention, 'patent pending'. From the date of our filing we have 12 months to finalize our prototype before we get a legitimate patent number for our filter and new lighting scheme.
This filter will be connected to a piece of hardware that will make Internet access control possible through a smartphone application and computer application to effectively control, lights, any type of timers, heat, humidity, airflow, HD video recording, HD audio recording, and many other awesome features... 4x USB ports, 3d graphics card, high end processor, WiFi compatibility, full customized interface.

My friend is focusing on snakes and lizards and I am focusing on tortoises.. The unit will be able to control 4 lamps each and all their temps and airflow independently of each other..

He just had a snake who was under the filter we blueprinted and the snake shed in once piece for the first time ever! This is attributed directly the hydrstion of alpha and beta keratin. Which now I shall explain....

 

[glitch4200]

Biology.. The biology of a tortoises shell.. Is broken down into a couple components.. The top right hand corner of the first picture shows tortoise and croc scute (same biology) . The second pic is a close up of that scute just broken down. Which I will go into detail on..



The second picture is broken down into 2 basic proteins which are made up of amino acids. We shall focus on the bigger structure, Alpha and beta keratin (proteins). Alpha Kerstin is the yellow layer in the pic. The blood vessels and supply of nutrients to the alpha keratin (yellow) is the red layer.. This red and yellow layer control many functions of the tortoise... From thermal regulation to cellular metabolic activity and function.

Alpha Keratin is a precursor to beta Keratin. You can NOT have beta Keratin without alpha Keratin.. It is not possible. So for a strong shell and for proper tortoise function, you need an excellent matrix of alpha keratin to support the diffentiating into beta Keratin.. Everything about Kerstin is water sensitive.

As I have previously stated in this thread. Alpha Keratin needs water to become pliable to allow for growth of bone. Dehydration of alpha Keratin (loss of hydrogen bonds) leads to decreased amount of alpha keratin.

This matrix of alpha keratin is bonded by hydrogen, this type of keratin is bound in a helical formation that is held together by hydrogen. Like sooo..


You can see hydrogen is bonded through the structure and hydrogen is readily broken by denturing proteins ... This in lies the problem. Denturing proteins creates stress on the system. Heat and acid denurters.. As well as breaking of bonds.. Like disulfide bonds..


When a water sensitive protein (alpha keratin), is readily assaulted by 'unfiltered' infrared light up to 12 hours a day week after week. Something magical happens. It destroys and over heats your tortoise becuase of the poor crap distribution pattern of artificial lamps. Like soo.. (taken by me).


(taken by me)


(taken by Andy Highfield)
*from here*
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html

This shows localized hot spots as a result of uneven poorly distribution of artificial lamps from 2 sources. Me and Andy. Those red spots are the spots that the alpha keratin is losing and breaking it's
Hydrogen bonds... The intense unfiltered infrared is literally attacking and destroying the biology of the tortoises sensitive alpha keratin matrix. Which is responsible for quite a bit...

So what does a Tortoise do in such circumstances? Well the only thing it can do.. Proliferate.. The counter active mechanism to stopping the breaking of hydrogen bonds in the aloha keratin is by making more beta keratin to protect and cover the sensitive alpha keratin. The most sensitive spots are the hinge regions along all the scute lines. My thermal imaging showed the first to heat up was the hinge regions of all the scutes on the very top of the shell.

The repeated stretch and release of Kerstin deforms the helical structure putting lots of stress on the underling bones of the tortoise... It also creates random coils of collapesed Kerstin matrix when stressed to this degree. Protein folding is crucial to the diffentiating layer (between the yellow layer and top compact green layer *pic2*) this folding allows disulfide bonds to form to connect the helical strands of alpha keratin to the duel folded helical strands of beta keratin. Disulfide bond is not readily broken easily by loss of hydrogen bonds as it's not the main connector. and hydrogen is a stabilizing helper to this. BuT is the backbone molecule to alpha keratin.. And loss to those molecules sends the tortoise into biochemical scramble mode.

Breaking hydrogen bonds in aloha keratin results in massive proliferation of beta keratin in tortoises along the hinge regions along the scute lines.. As this is the most readily hydrogen accessible point on the tortoise and the lamps demand water. The lack of hydration and bonds stresses the beta keratin to form in fast fashion to quickly protect the very important alpha keratin in those sensitive regions . This extra beta keratin is very unnatural. And weak bone will readily deform under the extreme pressure of the bending beta keratin. Beta keratin when dried and non pliable exerts a 'bowl like' stress along the bone right under the scute. This is why you see pyramiding like it is. The bowl shape of the scutes as it dries, curls downward like a bowl. You can see it in picture of pyramiding tortoises. As more beta keratin is made the bowl is more pronounced. The bone reacts to this by building but the bone can't grow fast enough.. So this leads to less density as fast bone growth can not keep up. So now you have weak bone that is under extreme distress. Add poor diet. Poor exsercice. Poor UVb and hydration.. And you can clearly see why the tortoise pyramids...

Now how does coconut oil fit into all this and why should we absolutely use it for tortoises kept strict indoor raised, like mine?..

 

[glitch4200]

Coconut oil is very special. It has numerous properties that shield, protect and rebuild alpha and beta keratin helixes. I'll explain...

Alpha Kerstin is called alpha becuase it grows in a acidic environment. Beta keratin is called beta becuase it is bonded in an basic environment.

The decomposition of coconut oil is special. Here is a picture showing the decomposition of coconut oil from a scientific journal.



When their is high moisture. High heat 37c. As stated in the study.

Coconut oil quickly decomposes into lactic acid amon other organic acids (smaller qualities). You can see them all listed on the snapshot. This correlates to my habitat, I offer basking temps of 37c. And I high relatively high humidity. So I can use this graph in the way I need. Over a 4 day period lactic acid is created in Ppm (parts per million) . Lactic acid is a denurter to proteins specifically beta keratin. As it's known as a kerotlyic. It eats beta keratin. Gently eats it. So now we begin applying this oil and it begins to change the surface pH of the keratin. As the environment becomes more acidic beta keratin differention (between top green layer and yellow layer) slows down to a halt. And aloha keratin production is severely increased.. I saw this first hand in my tortoise Napebbles as she grew explosively.. Here..


You can see massive alpha keratin production. While beta keratin production has slowed dramatically it seems to me through observation. This increase in aloha keratin is the best thing we can do. As the pH drops in the shell proteins the alpha Kerstin explodes into production.. I have a study of a guy who mapped every single keratin gene and it's corresponding pH level for optimum microbial action potential. And the tortoise genes of Kerstin so happen to be listed in his study. so it happend to be right what coconut oil was pH wise... Pretty awesome if you ask me..

I have pointed out in previous posts that coconut oil is a very decent refractive # of 1.478, which allows light to bend through the matrix becoming absorbed or reflected. This matrix is extremely thermally stable. Coconut oil has multiple spectral absorption points that literally absorb infrared light in the wavelengths that break hydrogen bonds in aloha keratin along multiple points. Specifically past the 1000 nanometer mark deep into the infrared side of the spectrum.

A normal basking bulb emits 90 percent of its heat in the infrared spectrum. And as we know the infrared spectrum is water hungry to the highest degree becuase it is not filtered. It is unfiltered. Here are the graphs. Please pay extra close attention to the blue areas at the 1000 nanometer mark and beyond..


Those are water hungry
wavelengths. Any light in thaf part of the spectrum is going to absorb water like absolutly crazy.. Now please look at your normal basking bulb and where does it peak?!

It peaks in the very worst spot to peak in! Your lamps most powerful output is at the wavelengths that's dehydrate and break the most hydrogen bonds in the proteins that make up your tortoises shell and skin. Compare the 2 graphs. The first graph shows a filtered lamp. The water filter is effectively filtering the infrared. (hint hint) which lowers the water hungry wavelengths from needing water. (hint hint). So now we have a super common heat bulb that peaks in the worst possible place ever. Subjecting our tortoises to extremely unfair environments... The least we can do is offer them some relief from these lamps by applying coconut oil. To distribute the heat more effectively. Protect the tortoise from unfiltered infrared. Repair the very sensitive alpha Kerstin, which in turn strengthens the beta keratin through proper diffentiating.

That's all for me tonight Haha.

 

[Alaskamike]

Outstanding summary ! Thanks.

 

[Heardofturtles]

Before I begin I would like to publicly announce.. That my friend and I have successfully filtered infrared light in a practical way for all tortoise keepers to use to filter your artificial lamps.. We have successfully figured out a cost effective way to filter infrared light so no tortoise is ever subjected to dehydrating 'unfiltered' infrared when housed under Any type of infrared emitting bulb. We are currently in prototyping stage, we have are provisional patent paperwork filled out and ready to be sent in to label our invention, 'patent pending'. From the date of our filing we have 12 months to finalize our prototype before we get a legitimate patent number for our filter and new lighting scheme.
This filter will be connected to a piece of hardware that will make Internet access control possible through a smartphone application and computer application to effectively control, lights, any type of timers, heat, humidity, airflow, HD video recording, HD audio recording, and many other awesome features... 4x USB ports, 3d graphics card, high end processor, WiFi compatibility, full customized interface.

My friend is focusing on snakes and lizards and I am focusing on tortoises.. The unit will be able to control 4 lamps each and all their temps and airflow independently of each other..

....

Finally the answer to the question, 'Why does this thread sound like an infomercial?'

 

[glitch4200]

Finally the answer to the question, 'Why does this thread sound like an infomercial?'

It's called progression.. When I started this thread I had no idea if would come this far or I would learn what I have through my studying. Soo...

 

[Alaskamike]

Wow. Two really rude comments in a row. Here is a guy trying to understand and maybe discover something new and possibly beneficial for the community of tort keepers and both his motives and his general husbandry practices get slammed.

I've got no iron in this fire other than following this thread with interest and a willingness to investigate and learn. But to accuse Glitch of creating an infomercial ? As if that was his intent all along ?

Maybe when you yourself contribute something to the forum you might have something worthwhile to say. Glitch has.

You can challenge the research , information, the science, biology, results .... But an insult to motives by one who has less than 2 months here on the forum is ridiculous, and rude

And that comment about feeding strawberry ? Come on. That was answered long ago when it was first brought up. It was a treat.
That was a low blow and childish.

Object to science and information with science and information Otherwise what is your point ?

Debate the topic like grow ups.

 

[G-stars]

Completely agree with @Alaskamike .
Glitch is just trying to find something new and innovative. You don't have to agree or like it.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Or even read/follow it for that matter

 

[glitch4200]

Of course you lose moisture, you're lighting set up is an Easy Bake oven. What is the rational?

On a separate note, you may wish to discontinue feeding strawberries, both for the health of your tortoise and your own credibility.

Wtf do you not get about ALL artifical lamps are easy bake lamps? That is the whole point of my long rants. To show you how damaging those lamps are to your tortoises. I need those lamps to properly light the area up. Those wattages abs style of bulbs are needed to correctly raise my tortoises.

Oh and the strawberry.. I laugh at you. Obviously you didn't see my pictures with nice healthy smooth tortoises being raised despite "fruit" being fed only 10% of a yearly diet... That would add up to 2x a month, a small piece. Which is not going to harm them in the least bit.

And do I really care if I am credible to you? Absolutly not. I don't need to prove myself to anyone but myself and my tortoises. As they are the ones who feel the brunt of incorrect husbandry.

I am a huge advocate of this forum. I am constantly on Facebook groups and other forums, bashing people at the insane outdated information that ia spread around like wildfire. And leading them to places like this with a collective knowledge, that is the best available anywhere.

With the thousands of threads here, please do yourself a favor and lurk in the background becuase uou have absolutly nothing to offer this thread. So keep your unintelligent thoughts to yourself. No one cares for it. Nor wants you in this thread if you have nothing to add to this interesting idea. Don't dilute the thread with unintelligence and doubt becuase you don't agree. If it's constructive and you can either uphold or destroy my studies and research please take a stab at it. Try being intelligent. Let's see how it goes. Find a flaw in my research. I want you to try and contribute instead of being fly on the wall in the nose bleed section.

 

[leigti]

I think there is room for disagreement and discussion. I am not good at being politically correct sometimes. I have follow this thread loosely since it started. I have commented previously about my views on keeping a tortoise indoors all the time. I have used the coconut oil on my tortoise about six or seven times over the winter when she was indoors. From what I can tell with my really crappy eyesight is it did seem to decrease the dryness. And I do like the antibacterial and antifungal properties. I am not enough of a scientist to know if all the information on lighting and keratin etc. is correct so I can't really comment. I have commented in the past on my views about having a control group and how to make a real scientific study.
I think the comment about an infomercial was kind of a low blow. I don't think this person had or really has much of an intention to make a product. If it happens it happens but don't insult of them by saying it was the plan all along. I do think that if you don't agree then say so if you want to but you don't have to be overly rude about it. Keep an open mind, research on your own if you want to, or ignore it completel but don't come along just to throw in insults once in a while.nobody is being forced to read this thread or agree with it. I think Alaska Mike pretty much sums it up.

 

[leigti]

Once again, that was not my post.

I know it wasn't. I would suggest that this person try a fixture that spreads out the heat and the light more than the ones that they have. Maybe something like this, 11 inches wide

Very easy upgrade to make, using this fixture may change the results of some of the tests they are doing, I suggest they try it.

 

[leigti]

My comments were meant for everybody in general. So anybody can disagree with me if they want to.

 

[Anyfoot]

It's called progression.. When I started this thread I had no idea if would come this far or I would learn what I have through my studying. Soo...

Hi glitch. I lost track of your experiment way back, Did you ever do the experiment whilst spreading the wattage load with more smaller wattage bulbs instead of 1 intense bulb. Like 10x20watt instead of 2x100watt. Then thermal gun the tort.

 

[Anyfoot]

OK. Back to being serious. Am I missing something or what. Glitch is saying that putting coconut oil on stops the intense hot spot from a bulb, this in turn stops uneven growth of the carapace. i.e pyramiding. Am I right up to now? Some keepers require a basking spot, right. So if a tort for example requires 100f basking spot we provide a hot area with a spot bulb. This gives the effect of the sun but creates a hot spot on the carapace. So we need an even temperature around the tort of 100f. I think this can not be achieved with a bulb for heat and light. The light source needs to be uvb but no heat and the heat source needs to be as far away from the tort as possible to create an ambiant at 100f and no light. And not a hot spot. Alternatively lots of smaller watt heat sources closer but spaced out. My CHE gives an ambient of 90f with no hot spot at one end for my reds, and my uvb provides the light. Time will tell if it works. Although I'm sure there are many other things to take into account for smooth growth. Humidity,diet,exercise,natural sun. Etc. @glitch2000. I take my hat off to you for your commitment, and I hope you prove something good for torts out of this. If just 1 little thing comes out if this it will have been worth it. .

 

[Anyfoot]

@glitch4200. Would it be possible to use your thermal heat gun on a CHE in place of a bulb. Just swap bulb for same watt CHE and see what the difference is. Dont alter the height that the bulb was at. Cheers.