Does Diet Effect Shell Pyrmiding

[EppsDynasty]

I am in no way an expert or have decades of experience but when confronting Pyramiding and it's causes in Torts don't forget Turtles. When you 'Think' there is a cause for the pyramiding apply that to turtles ..... does it cause pyramiding? Turtles are feed way to much protein, also high levels of sugars and all the same terrible things that tortoises are fed ... yet there is no pyramiding. A tortoises shell is Keratin over bone, so is a turtles, so why one but not the other?

 

[Markw84]

I am in no way an expert or have decades of experience but when confronting Pyramiding and it's causes in Torts don't forget Turtles. When you 'Think' there is a cause for the pyramiding apply that to turtles ..... does it cause pyramiding? Turtles are feed way to much protein, also high levels of sugars and all the same terrible things that tortoises are fed ... yet there is no pyramiding. A tortoises shell is Keratin over bone, so is a turtles, so why one but not the other?

Turtles are very different than tortoises. Mainly in that most of them shed their scutes. New keratin grows protected by the old scute layer on top that will later then shed off. Keratin of the scute also grows differently in turtles in that a thin layer of keratin will grow and add to the scute over the entire area of the scute. A tortoise only has new keratin growing at an active growth seam. Finally, turtles are far more aquatic. Most live in water, constantly hydrating the shell. Even the box turtles and terrestrial turtles are far more inclined towards always seeking damp cover.

 

[EppsDynasty]

Most live in water, constantly hydrating the shell

SO...... This is why pyramiding is basically never seen in turtles? We do have a few turtles with pyramiding but they all were kept under a heat bulb.

 

[Markw84]

SO...... This is why pyramiding is basically never seen in turtles? We do have a few turtles with pyramiding but they all were kept under a heat bulb.

Most pyramided turtles are due to scute retention - totally different. They are not kept in good conditions and diet/basking is not right so they don't shed their old layer of the scute and the layers start to build up.

 

[EppsDynasty]

Most pyramided turtles are due to scute retention - totally different.

So I'm learning here, no way I'm not going to take advantage of such a knowledgeable person........
I get it turtle shell completely different but still comprised of Keratin. We have quite a few pyramided turtles and everyone came from a tank with a heat bulb. Does dehydration of the Keratin play a role in this? You mention Basking.....does that include essentially burning the shell/Keratin? I have read countless studies/papers on the effects of Keratin being dehydrated in dozens of animals like big Horn Sheep, Horse hoofs,etc. All of them highlight the effects on Keratin being dehydrated and how it destroys the Keratin's ability to retain moisture, it's just not called Pyramiding in a horse hoof. I was just educated on the difference of a tort shell and a turtles - Thank You, this is how I learn - but doesn't the turtles Keratin act just like every other animal that's Keratin becomes dehydrated? Right now we are working with a woman in Kentucky that has dozens of Red Eared Sliders in her in ground pool, been there for more than 5 years, and the ONLY food they have been given is dog food....for years. Not one is pyramided, not 1. I have a hard time thinking that protein levels cause pyramiding when I see examples just like this over and over. It's really hard for me to believe diet is a pyramiding issue when we see animals that have eaten nothing but dog food for years, we have seen torts fed dog food for years as well. @Markw84 .... I in no way am trying to argue but I am trying to learn and understand the realities of pyramiding in a reality based thought process, not just making claims. I really do thank you for taking the time to help me understand this.

 

[Tom]

So I'm learning here, no way I'm not going to take advantage of such a knowledgeable person........
I get it turtle shell completely different but still comprised of Keratin. We have quite a few pyramided turtles and everyone came from a tank with a heat bulb. Does dehydration of the Keratin play a role in this? You mention Basking.....does that include essentially burning the shell/Keratin? I have read countless studies/papers on the effects of Keratin being dehydrated in dozens of animals like big Horn Sheep, Horse hoofs,etc. All of them highlight the effects on Keratin being dehydrated and how it destroys the Keratin's ability to retain moisture, it's just not called Pyramiding in a horse hoof. I was just educated on the difference of a tort shell and a turtles - Thank You, this is how I learn - but doesn't the turtles Keratin act just like every other animal that's Keratin becomes dehydrated? Right now we are working with a woman in Kentucky that has dozens of Red Eared Sliders in her in ground pool, been there for more than 5 years, and the ONLY food they have been given is dog food....for years. Not one is pyramided, not 1. I have a hard time thinking that protein levels cause pyramiding when I see examples just like this over and over. It's really hard for me to believe diet is a pyramiding issue when we see animals that have eaten nothing but dog food for years, we have seen torts fed dog food for years as well. @Markw84 .... I in no way am trying to argue but I am trying to learn and understand the realities of pyramiding in a reality based thought process, not just making claims. I really do thank you for taking the time to help me understand this.

Haven't we all agreed throughout this entire thread that diet doesn't cause it, and excessive desiccation does cause it. An inappropriate heat lamp or the right heat lamp use incorrectly can cause scute desiccation and the problems you are seeing in the turtles. Your eyes are not deceiving you. People use spot lamps, MVBs, halogen spots, and most people don't have a clue about how to set the height and temperature properly.

 

[EppsDynasty]

Haven't we all agreed throughout this entire thread that diet doesn't cause it, and excessive desiccation does cause it.

I thought so, just making sure I'm still on the right path. I am no expert and love to get reactions from experts on different topics .... even if it's a dumb question.

 

[Tom]

I thought so, just making sure I'm still on the right path. I am no expert and love to get reactions from experts on different topics .... even if it's a dumb question.

Mark is the turtle expert. My experience with turtles is much more limited.

 

[ryan57]

Len: Walker, Donald and Thomas are gorgeous animals by the way and the standard of care I'm trying to provide!! Mine are 58 lbs @ 3yrs 5mo (Slight pyramiding) and the other is 15lbs 3oz at 2 years and 1 week. Both male... found out the small one is last week. The younger one has no pyramiding whatsoever and is completely smooth.

The reason that I'm chiming in has only to do with what Mark mentioned about their humidity when small and humidity in the egg and also what Tom has mentioned in the past about breeders raising hatchlings 'jerky style'.


This is a photo of the 2 year old male Figgy. Completely smooth. My daughter sent me him from backwater reptiles without my knowledge when Stump was missing. Flew here overnight and was in hyper mode when he arrived. So much so, he almost got named "Demon". Eats like no animal I've ever seen. Had 2 fused scutes and stayed at 50 grams for almost 3 months.

Now Stump:


I fear he was raised 'jerky style'. Thankfully this forum and Tom got him on the right path with regard to humidity. 80-82 degrees minimum, water vapor to 80% humidity. Worked itself somewhat but I see lingering effects of how he was raised in the first weeks. I still remember his first poop. It looked like dried tobacco or something and hard as a rock.



This last one was taken this evening on his 1.5 mile walk. Here you can clearly see his "big boy" growth lines. Both tortoises get between 45 minutes to 1.5hrs of soaking DAILY.

Back to the discussion, I'd like to point out to this group that neither tortoise has received elevated humidity beyond 1.2 years (beyond sleeping in a closed chamber) when kept indoors for at least 14 hours at night, Stump more like 20hrs sometimes, diet is identical but the level of pyramiding is much different. I'm thinking that hydration in those initial weeks are ultra, ultra crucial to development. But as others have stated, these are tough, powerful, resilient animals that somehow find a way wherever they find themselves...

I got Stump from American Reptile Distributors in NJ.