EJ and pyramiding

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Yvonne G

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Attack your grammar? Please! You said the pictures were wrong and I didn't understand why they were wrong. This is not grammar. So ok, now you've admitted you used the wrong word, but how was I supposed to know that? I didn't show the picture so that we could discuss the porosity of the cross section, I only showed it so that the person who asked about it could see the inside ( underside) of the pyramid. That is my counterpoint. I was only showing the reverse side of the pyramids, not wanting to get into the MBD discussion.
 

-EJ

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That's exactly what you are doing.

I said the photos as they were being used in the context of the discussions were erroneous... I gave it a little thought and corrected my statement to say the photos were misleading... which they are in the context of the discussion.

Check out the definition of 'erroneous'... if I wanted to use a word as strong as 'wrong'... I would have.

I corrected my grammar in the very next post I made.

I do seem to remember a mention of bone density. When I read that I think there is a need to clarify the point that pyramiding is not always associated with MBD.

emysemys said:
Attack your grammar? Please! You said the pictures were wrong and I didn't understand why they were wrong. This is not grammar. So ok, now you've admitted you used the wrong word, but how was I supposed to know that? I didn't show the picture so that we could discuss the porosity of the cross section, I only showed it so that the person who asked about it could see the inside ( underside) of the pyramid. That is my counterpoint. I was only showing the reverse side of the pyramids, not wanting to get into the MBD discussion.
 

Shelly

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-EJ said:
I think there is a need to clarify the point that pyramiding is not always associated with MBD.

Do you feel that pyramiding, without MBD, is strictly a cosmetic issue, or are there still health consequences for the animal?
 

-EJ

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There's no doubt in my mind that pyramiding without MBD is strictly cosmetic... and in time... given the proper circumstances... can even be warn flat without harm to the animal.

In the case of a Sulcata that is pyramided... if the tortoise was allowed to burrow... the bumps should eventually wear down.

Shelly said:
-EJ said:
I think there is a need to clarify the point that pyramiding is not always associated with MBD.

Do you feel that pyramiding, without MBD, is strictly a cosmetic issue, or are there still health consequences for the animal?
 

Kadaan

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So if a tortoise has proper vitamin D to prevent MBD but is lacking humidity or has too much dietary protein, it may still become pyramided without hollow/soft shells?

If not, what are the circumstances that would cause pyramiding unrelated to MBD?
 

-EJ

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The tortoise has to have either the proper vitamin D (D3) or the means (UVB) to metabolise the components to provide the D3.

Loose the idea of the 'too much protein'. I've yet to find a single person who can pinpoint... 'too much protein'... That's actually another topic.

You can have pyramiding and not have any physiological deficiencies. Some species such as the Stars, Leopards and the Tent tortoises have actually been accepted as a species which 'normally' pyramid... which is also incorrect. They are species which do demonstrate pyramiding in the natural population but there has to be a reason for it because all of these species can be raised without pyramiding.

The current accepted reason for the cause of pyramiding is a strong suggestion towards a lack of humidity. My personal thinking is heat and hydration. The heat is primary... that is the primary control of the tortoises metabolism.

The idea of 'too much protein' stems from the days tortoises were fed dog food. Dog food in those days were mostly animal by products... fat, grissle, entrals... and a little muscle... in addition to gravy and maybe some grain... very little grain.

Todays dogfoods... outside of the canned dogfoods are grain based. I'll be willing to be if those dogfoods were available back when this Protein myth would not be around today.



Kadaan said:
So if a tortoise has proper vitamin D to prevent MBD but is lacking humidity or has too much dietary protein, it may still become pyramided without hollow/soft shells?

If not, what are the circumstances that would cause pyramiding unrelated to MBD?
 

Yvonne G

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I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that if a tortoise isn't warm enough, the food he eats causes the growth to be pyramided? That makes sense to me.
 

-EJ

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Yes and no.

I've seen tortoises kept cool and fed horrible diets that come out perfect... small but perfect in form.

There is a ballance... and the balance is based on a dynamic... and an entire book can be written on that dynamic.

This conversation is fun but not very realistic. You can't provide a specific answer but the heat and hydration are the very basic starting points for which the other stuff is worthless if you do not have the basic heat and hydration.

emysemys said:
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that if a tortoise isn't warm enough, the food he eats causes the growth to be pyramided? That makes sense to me.
 

Madkins007

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Thanks, EJ, for sharing your thoughts! I appreciate it when proven breeders in our group take the time to post.
 

Stephanie Logan

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-EJ said:
The current accepted reason for the cause of pyramiding is a strong suggestion towards a lack of humidity. My personal thinking is heat and hydration. The heat is primary... that is the primary control of the tortoises metabolism.


So what temperatures do you create for your Chacos and with what equipment? What percentage of humidity in the enclosure and in the hide?

Are there any other Chaco-specific conditions you provide to ensure smooth shell growth?
 

-EJ

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I keep my Chacos like I do the rest. The bizzar point there is they eat like beasts... and do not grow. There is a little growth but I've had them close to 8 years. Humidity... very low.

I really don't give any of it much thought as far as my animals are concerned. Might read wierd but my actions are based on my feelings and experience. That's a tough thing to convey. The strongest factors are heat and hydration... not only external hydration. Chacos drink like camels... more than any tortoise I've ever seen.

Stephanie Logan said:
-EJ said:
The current accepted reason for the cause of pyramiding is a strong suggestion towards a lack of humidity. My personal thinking is heat and hydration. The heat is primary... that is the primary control of the tortoises metabolism.


So what temperatures do you create for your Chacos and with what equipment? What percentage of humidity in the enclosure and in the hide?

Are there any other Chaco-specific conditions you provide to ensure smooth shell growth?
 

nearpass

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I feel somewhat like I'm butting in here :cool: but has anyone read Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises by Wolfgang Wegehaupt? He has done some pretty extensive observation of Mediterranean tortoises in the wild, and feels that hydration is extremely important, more so than humidity (which primarily helps mitigate dehydration). He documents bumpy tortoises in the wild and indicates they are primarily from areas with almost no available drinking water. In bold, on page 253, he says, "Monitor the water intake of your animals and do not hesitate to intervene if you notice juveniles that drink too little or even not at all." I'm really just briefly mentioning this here, as I highly recommend the book to anyone keeping a tortoise, especially the Mediterranean ones, not to mention it has some great photos to illustrate some of his points.
 

-EJ

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It's a great book... but he's a German. I said that for shock value. You have to understand that the Germans are brilliant for providing info on many in the pet trade. The Hermanns book is fantastic... but it is still biased. Note the title.

The observation on the pyramiding in the wild... spot on... but I believe there are other factors... hydration being the primary one.

I'm just expressing some thought.

The one study that everyone currently uses as to pyramiding... a German study. It is compelling but it could have been done better.

nearpass said:
I feel somewhat like I'm butting in here :cool: but has anyone read Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises by Wolfgang Wegehaupt? He has done some pretty extensive observation of Mediterranean tortoises in the wild, and feels that hydration is extremely important, more so than humidity (which primarily helps mitigate dehydration). He documents bumpy tortoises in the wild and indicates they are primarily from areas with almost no available drinking water. In bold, on page 253, he says, "Monitor the water intake of your animals and do not hesitate to intervene if you notice juveniles that drink too little or even not at all." I'm really just briefly mentioning this here, as I highly recommend the book to anyone keeping a tortoise, especially the Mediterranean ones, not to mention it has some great photos to illustrate some of his points.
 

nearpass

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Well, I guess I'm kind of partial to Germans! He touches on a lot of issues that concern folks here, in a clear and easy to comprehend manner, and his shell cross-sections do distinguish between lumpy, but normal, and lumpy with MBD. Certainly more food for thought in that book ;)

-EJ said:
It's a great book... but he's a German. I said that for shock value. You have to understand that the Germans are brilliant for providing info on many in the pet trade. The Hermanns book is fantastic... but it is still biased. Note the title.

The observation on the pyramiding in the wild... spot on... but I believe there are other factors... hydration being the primary one.

I'm just expressing some thought.

The one study that everyone currently uses as to pyramiding... a German study. It is compelling but it could have been done better.

nearpass said:
I feel somewhat like I'm butting in here :cool: but has anyone read Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises by Wolfgang Wegehaupt? He has done some pretty extensive observation of Mediterranean tortoises in the wild, and feels that hydration is extremely important, more so than humidity (which primarily helps mitigate dehydration). He documents bumpy tortoises in the wild and indicates they are primarily from areas with almost no available drinking water. In bold, on page 253, he says, "Monitor the water intake of your animals and do not hesitate to intervene if you notice juveniles that drink too little or even not at all." I'm really just briefly mentioning this here, as I highly recommend the book to anyone keeping a tortoise, especially the Mediterranean ones, not to mention it has some great photos to illustrate some of his points.
 

-EJ

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This is why I have always loved Germans to an extreme... They are anal to no end. I took German for 3 years to read the herp litterature in german... they finally wised up and saw how much they could make in the the 'english' herp industry.

Can you give me the page to the cross section?



nearpass said:
Well, I guess I'm kind of partial to Germans! He touches on a lot of issues that concern folks here, in a clear and easy to comprehend manner, and his shell cross-sections do distinguish between lumpy, but normal, and lumpy with MBD. Certainly more food for thought in that book ;)

-EJ said:
It's a great book... but he's a German. I said that for shock value. You have to understand that the Germans are brilliant for providing info on many in the pet trade. The Hermanns book is fantastic... but it is still biased. Note the title.

The observation on the pyramiding in the wild... spot on... but I believe there are other factors... hydration being the primary one.

I'm just expressing some thought.

The one study that everyone currently uses as to pyramiding... a German study. It is compelling but it could have been done better.

nearpass said:
I feel somewhat like I'm butting in here :cool: but has anyone read Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises by Wolfgang Wegehaupt? He has done some pretty extensive observation of Mediterranean tortoises in the wild, and feels that hydration is extremely important, more so than humidity (which primarily helps mitigate dehydration). He documents bumpy tortoises in the wild and indicates they are primarily from areas with almost no available drinking water. In bold, on page 253, he says, "Monitor the water intake of your animals and do not hesitate to intervene if you notice juveniles that drink too little or even not at all." I'm really just briefly mentioning this here, as I highly recommend the book to anyone keeping a tortoise, especially the Mediterranean ones, not to mention it has some great photos to illustrate some of his points.
 

nearpass

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The cross-section photos, there are three, are on Pages 250 and 252.

-EJ said:
This is why I have always loved Germans to an extreme... They are anal to no end. I took German for 3 years to read the herp litterature in german... they finally wised up and saw how much they could make in the the 'english' herp industry.

Can you give me the page to the cross section?



nearpass said:
Well, I guess I'm kind of partial to Germans! He touches on a lot of issues that concern folks here, in a clear and easy to comprehend manner, and his shell cross-sections do distinguish between lumpy, but normal, and lumpy with MBD. Certainly more food for thought in that book ;)

-EJ said:
It's a great book... but he's a German. I said that for shock value. You have to understand that the Germans are brilliant for providing info on many in the pet trade. The Hermanns book is fantastic... but it is still biased. Note the title.

The observation on the pyramiding in the wild... spot on... but I believe there are other factors... hydration being the primary one.

I'm just expressing some thought.

The one study that everyone currently uses as to pyramiding... a German study. It is compelling but it could have been done better.

nearpass said:
I feel somewhat like I'm butting in here :cool: but has anyone read Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises by Wolfgang Wegehaupt? He has done some pretty extensive observation of Mediterranean tortoises in the wild, and feels that hydration is extremely important, more so than humidity (which primarily helps mitigate dehydration). He documents bumpy tortoises in the wild and indicates they are primarily from areas with almost no available drinking water. In bold, on page 253, he says, "Monitor the water intake of your animals and do not hesitate to intervene if you notice juveniles that drink too little or even not at all." I'm really just briefly mentioning this here, as I highly recommend the book to anyone keeping a tortoise, especially the Mediterranean ones, not to mention it has some great photos to illustrate some of his points.
 

-EJ

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Thank you very much for pointing that out. I know I've seen them but didn't (read... too lazy) to find them.

Those are brilliant shots... one problem... the spinal bone is not present in each. What's important in that pont is that if you drew a line on the spinal bone... they would be the same on both examples.

The top example is an extreme and a very good one.
 

Stephanie Logan

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-EJ said:
I keep my Chacos like I do the rest. The bizzar point there is they eat like beasts... and do not grow. There is a little growth but I've had them close to 8 years. Humidity... very low.

I really don't give any of it much thought as far as my animals are concerned. Might read wierd but my actions are based on my feelings and experience. That's a tough thing to convey. The strongest factors are heat and hydration... not only external hydration. Chacos drink like camels... more than any tortoise I've ever seen.

I hardly ever see Taco drinking, but I soak her at least 4 times a week to encourage her to drink, and she has fresh water in her enclosure at all times. The water level decreases regularly, so she is either drinking or the CHE is causing the water to evaporate.

Taco eats like a bird, but I think she gets all the essentials: endive, cactus fruit, squash, one pellet Mazuri, a shake of TNT and of calcium (no D3 or phosphorus), small amount of grape or watermelon puree, chopped mushroom.

Colorado has extremely low humidity so I have a muslin bag full of sphagnum peat moss in her hide that I keep moist-to-wet. I don't have a humidity meter yet. Do you recommend one?

Her hide temp is 65-70, her enclosure ranges from 105 under her Trex bulb, 80-85 near the CHE, 70 in the far corners.

What would you change if she were your tortoise?
 

-EJ

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I'm not gonna go there.

I had 25... lost 21. Spent $2000 in diagnostics... no result. When I got to Georgia I traded an Aldabra for 3 Chacos (I really like them). 2 died within a couple of weeks.

I've got this really good herp vet within 2 hours of me... $1000 later... It's still with me.

The point... I'm not going to even give you a suggestion.

You have an amazing vet in your state... don't know how close he is to you... Dr. Klingingburg... that's the guy to contact.

Bottom line... treat for protozoa... regardless of diagnostics.

Description... my guys fight... scramble for food... have the most outgoing personalities. That's what I call a 'normal' chaco.

Stephanie Logan said:
-EJ said:
I keep my Chacos like I do the rest. The bizzar point there is they eat like beasts... and do not grow. There is a little growth but I've had them close to 8 years. Humidity... very low.

I really don't give any of it much thought as far as my animals are concerned. Might read wierd but my actions are based on my feelings and experience. That's a tough thing to convey. The strongest factors are heat and hydration... not only external hydration. Chacos drink like camels... more than any tortoise I've ever seen.

I hardly ever see Taco drinking, but I soak her at least 4 times a week to encourage her to drink, and she has fresh water in her enclosure at all times. The water level decreases regularly, so she is either drinking or the CHE is causing the water to evaporate.

Taco eats like a bird, but I think she gets all the essentials: endive, cactus fruit, squash, one pellet Mazuri, a shake of TNT and of calcium (no D3 or phosphorus), small amount of grape or watermelon puree, chopped mushroom.

Colorado has extremely low humidity so I have a muslin bag full of sphagnum peat moss in her hide that I keep moist-to-wet. I don't have a humidity meter yet. Do you recommend one?

Her hide temp is 65-70, her enclosure ranges from 105 under her Trex bulb, 80-85 near the CHE, 70 in the far corners.

What would you change if she were your tortoise?
 
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