EJ and pyramiding

[-EJ]

I don't know about anyone else but in my case it is a 50/50 interest.

I enjoy the social interaction and for those that actually take the debate seriously I learn new references and techniques... which I hope benefit the animals.

You can't beat the old references but with Exotic medicine becoming more profitable there is now newer actual research that is being published in reptile husbandry. These publishings are not always in reptile oriented publications and sometimes comes out in these 'worthless' discussions that continually get rehashed.

The worth of the discussion totally depends on the participants and the accuracy or relavence of the input.

The best stuff I get is when a person gets angry enough to do the proper research to prove themselves right and me wrong. I get some really good stuff in that case.

So these debates are more for us then the tortoises

 

[Redfoot NERD]

My post was more directed at Terry than Ed...

Why Kelly?

Because you bought up in this thread the "proper husbandry" comment... What is your definition of "proper husbandry"...

Kelly I was asking Ed what he considered "proper husbandry" since he seems to always find something he doesn't like about something EVERYBODY says.

Wouldn't the polite thing to have done would have asked me for clarification first?

Besides if I had to define "proper husbandry"... it would be what I've always said and shown. "If you want them to look like this.. here's how you do it" - with pics showing results over the years. That's simple enough isn't it?

NERD

 

[-EJ]

Here's something for you do think about... there are many people who raise animals as nice looking who's husbandry is nowhere near what you or I do.

What I find wrong is... 'this is THE way... all else is wrong'. THE way is usually the person who is postings way.

That's always struck me as arrogant an short sighted. I know I come across that way but I hope that people read that my observations are just that... my observations and nothing more. I do think I'm right... but I also know I could be wrong. I don't suggest a method or advice to a person if I have the slightest doubt I could be wrong... I've said this many times.

That's one point of the debate. I like to think I can look at a post objectively and try to look a both sides.

Terry... to demonstrate my point... you never did say how you are keeping your tortoises now? Would you call that proper? I've never been to your place. I have seen a few pictures. Patterns based on similar keepers makes me confident to ask the question knowing the answer.
Don't read this as me implying you keep your tortoises improperly. Considering the nice animals and the breeding success I'd say you are keeping them pretty properly... but if you were to describe those conditions... I'll bet you'd get some nasty replys on certain forums.

Kelly I was asking Ed what he considered "proper husbandry" since he seems to always find something he doesn't like about something EVERYBODY says.

Besides if I had to define "proper husbandry"... it would be what I've always said and shown. "If you want them to look like this.. here's how you do it" - with pics showing results over the years. That's simple enough isn't it?

NERD

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Here's something for you do think about... there are many people who raise animals as nice looking who's husbandry is nowhere near what you or I do.

What I find wrong is... 'this is THE way... all else is wrong'. THE way is usually the person who is postings way.

That's always struck me as arrogant an short sighted. I know I come across that way but I hope that people read that my observations are just that... my observations and nothing more. I do think I'm right... but I also know I could be wrong. I don't suggest a method or advice to a person if I have the slightest doubt I could be wrong... I've said this many times.

That's one point of the debate. I like to think I can look at a post objectively and try to look a both sides.

Terry... to demonstrate my point... you never did say how you are keeping your tortoises now? Would you call that proper? I've never been to your place. I have seen a few pictures. Patterns based on similar keepers makes me confident to ask the question knowing the answer.
Don't read this as me implying you keep your tortoises improperly. Considering the nice animals and the breeding success I'd say you are keeping them pretty properly... but if you were to describe those conditions... I'll bet you'd get some nasty replys on certain forums.

Kelly I was asking Ed what he considered "proper husbandry" since he seems to always find something he doesn't like about something EVERYBODY says.

Besides if I had to define "proper husbandry"... it would be what I've always said and shown. "If you want them to look like this.. here's how you do it" - with pics showing results over the years. That's simple enough isn't it?

NERD

Aren't you kinda putting 'words' into my postings Ed? You are reading into it aren't you?
What I find wrong is... 'this is THE way... all else is wrong'.

Where in the past 5 YEARS [ since I wrote the Caresheet on my website ] have I ever said anywhere.. "My way is the ONLY way that works and every other way is wrong"? I'm yet to get an answer on that same question.. since I've been here on TF.org.

I haven't really changed anything. I researched for over 5 years and ended up with "bumpy breeders"! A lot was changed! I did keep the advice of a few.. and have been watching them for a few years also.

Virtually everyone of my '05 to present "keepers" look good.. according to virtually everyone - what can I say?

Terry K

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm hoping we all can keep cool heads when replying in this thread. It is a very educational thread and I'd hate to close it.

To be truthful, Terry, you do come across in some of your postings that your way is the only way. I don't believe you've actually said those words, but the impression is there.

I don't keep Redfoot tortoises, but I DO refer most new RF keepers to your two web sites. Your pictures speak for themselves.

 

[-EJ]

Terry... I'm not pushing anything here.

You made a comment of me finding fault in many posts... the only fault that I have a strong opinion about is that 'my way is the only/right way. Nowhere did I say another person said that. I'll take it to the person and mention that there are other methods... then the argument starts.

I like to encourage different ideas either through debate or question... that's how I learn.

 

[Madkins007]

Thanks, EJ. You believe that heat and humidity are the keys to preventing pyramiding, and I would assume you mean this for pretty much all species of tortoise?

I am not sure if I made this clear enough, but I just found your wording on the original closed thread a little ambiguous and wanted some clarification.

Thanks again!

 

[-EJ]

Not a problem... but I, again, think I could be wrong... but I believe I'm right. Time will tell. Again, this is not an exclusive or original thought. There are a good number tortoise keepers who believe the same.

Thanks, EJ. You believe that heat and humidity are the keys to preventing pyramiding, and I would assume you mean this for pretty much all species of tortoise?

I am not sure if I made this clear enough, but I just found your wording on the original closed thread a little ambiguous and wanted some clarification.

Thanks again!

 

[bettinge]

If you were to take a cross section of a pyramid, what would its make up be? I asume from EJ's comment above "The bone is then forced to push up rather than out" that its bone!

What is the scute made of? I assume its not bone! I have a book on Hermann tortoises by Holger Vetter and it shows a tortoise that lived thru a forest fire but did not dig down deep enough. The scutes were burned off and the bone below is clearly visable!

Also, when we say heat may have a strong effect, do you mean too little or too much heat?

 

[-EJ]

It is exactly as you say in that the bone is concaved if you look at it from the inside.

The scute in made of keratin which I believe is secreted by the live bone.

In the case of dead bone it does not secrete keratin but protects the live bone. The live bone then secretes a new layer of Keratin and the dead bone eventually falls off in most cases.

All reptiles metabolic processes are temperature dependent for the most part. You can have too little or too much heat.

If you were to take a cross section of a pyramid, what would its make up be? I asume from EJ's comment above "The bone is then forced to push up rather than out" that its bone!

What is the scute made of? I assume its not bone! I have a book on Hermann tortoises by Holger Vetter and it shows a tortoise that lived thru a forest fire but did not dig down deep enough. The scutes were burned off and the bone below is clearly visable!

Also, when we say heat may have a strong effect, do you mean too little or too much heat?

 

[Yvonne G]

Here's a thread that shows just that...a cut off cross section of a healthy and a pyramided desert tortoise shell.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-8618.html?highlight=pyramid

 

[bettinge]

So Yvonne, From the looks of your link, not only is the shell pyramided on the inside as well, the shell itself also looks much more "honeycomb". Is that true, or am I looking at the photo wrong?

Great link by the way!

 

[-EJ]

Totally different debate there...

That's the 'pyramiding/MBD' debate.

This is cause of pyramiding debate.

The link is a misleading one. Again... a 'pyramiding/MBD' thread should be started to cover this one... again.

Here's a thread that shows just that...a cut off cross section of a healthy and a pyramided desert tortoise shell.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-8618.html?highlight=pyramid

 

[Yvonne G]

No, that's correct. The healthy shell is much denser.

 

[Luvthemtorts]

Off topic but wanted to say hello to Ed.
Been a long time and I hope all has been well with you and the torts.
Hows that Redfoot I sent you doing? I swear it looked like a jaguar had attacked that poor critter in the wild lol.
Jackie Lapradd

 

[-EJ]

Dude... I'm so glad you're doing well. (that's a huge assumption on my part)

You seriously need to keep in touch off the chats.

I still have the dark one. The marks distinguish him... when I do the daily count.

Off topic but wanted to say hello to Ed.
Been a long time and I hope all has been well with you and the torts.
Hows that Redfoot I sent you doing? I swear it looked like a jaguar had attacked that poor critter in the wild lol.
Jackie Lapradd

---

These posts are eroneous. These are... first... captive animals... second... left in the yard for...

Here's a thread that shows just that...a cut off cross section of a healthy and a pyramided desert tortoise shell.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-8618.html?highlight=pyramid

 

[Yvonne G]

Totally different debate there...

That's the 'pyramiding/MBD' debate.

I merely wanted them to see the picture.

What do you mean erroneous? What difference does it make if its a wild creature or a back yard creature. I showed the pictures and gave the link so people can see what "pyramiding" looks like on the inside.

 

[-EJ]

It's erroneous in that it is a captive animal and that it was left in the yard for a while.

Totally different debate there...

That's the 'pyramiding/MBD' debate.

I merely wanted them to see the picture.

What do you mean erroneous? What difference does it make if its a wild creature or a back yard creature. I showed the pictures and gave the link so people can see what "pyramiding" looks like on the inside.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Yes. I get it.

Showing a photo of a cross-section of a pyramided scute to illustrate what the tissue/bone looks like on the inside is erroneous because the pyramided tissue of a wild caught tortoise is different than the pyramided tissue of of captive bred tortoise, especially one that has been left out in the yard.

 

[-EJ]

What's your point.

One more time... pyramiding is not an indication of MBD.

Yes. I get it.

Showing a photo of a cross-section of a pyramided scute to illustrate what the tissue/bone looks like on the inside is erroneous because the pyramided tissue of a wild caught tortoise is different than the pyramided tissue of of captive bred tortoise, especially one that has been left out in the yard.