Yes. Pyramiding and MBD are completely unrelated.
EJ and pyramiding
- Thread starter Madkins007
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If there's only one, it must be you. It can't be both of us! I am part of the great uneducated horde.
hey man... I'm an aircraft mechanic by trade but I'm proud to say I have an AS in biology... not that it is going to get me a job... not that I need it right now.
Stephanie Logan said:
I have a bachelor's degree in education and a master's degree in history, but that doesn't make me an expert on tortoises.
There is a BIG difference in education and intelligence. Education does not make you intelligent, Ed. I am not as educated as you, but I've always thought of myself as intelligent. From reading your posts, Stephanie, I would have to say you are both....again...just my HO.
-EJ said:
I guess I'm just dense this a.m., but I still don't understand the point you're making. Ok, so MBD doesn't mean pyramiding. But the picture showed the cross section of two desert tortoises, one with pyramiding and one without. What difference does it make if the tortoise was "left in the yard for a while?"
Just to clarify something... MBD is not a specific disease, but a condition that is caused by many things, and many vets are annoyed by the use and misuse of the term rather than more accurate and specific terms for exactly what is happening. (Dr. Mader, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery", chapter 61, p.841, etc.)
MBD can be caused my many things, two major groups of it are nutritional (NMBD) and renal (RMBD), with NMBD being the most common.
The most common form of NMBD is 'Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathryroidism' (NSHP), poorly formed bones due to a lack of vitamin D (vitamin A plays an important role as well). This is the classic 'soft shell', but also affects all the bones and many other organs and systems. In iguanas it is often called 'Rubber Jaw'. There are other forms of MDB that can come into play, but most of the badly shaped shells we see are due, in large part, to NSHP.
Actual pyramiding seems to be driven in part by humidity/hydration, with other factors coming in to play as well. Pyramiding and NSHP often occur together and create the bumpy, flattened shell we sometimes see. Some elements of NSHP may play a role in some aspect of pyramiding, but the two are basically different issues.
(Source: Dr. Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" again.)
MBD can be caused my many things, two major groups of it are nutritional (NMBD) and renal (RMBD), with NMBD being the most common.
The most common form of NMBD is 'Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathryroidism' (NSHP), poorly formed bones due to a lack of vitamin D (vitamin A plays an important role as well). This is the classic 'soft shell', but also affects all the bones and many other organs and systems. In iguanas it is often called 'Rubber Jaw'. There are other forms of MDB that can come into play, but most of the badly shaped shells we see are due, in large part, to NSHP.
Actual pyramiding seems to be driven in part by humidity/hydration, with other factors coming in to play as well. Pyramiding and NSHP often occur together and create the bumpy, flattened shell we sometimes see. Some elements of NSHP may play a role in some aspect of pyramiding, but the two are basically different issues.
(Source: Dr. Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" again.)
First... captive... I'm sure the ideal nutrition was not provided.
Second... the OP of those photos tried to imply that the seperation of the sutures was part of the MBD. When the bone dries the sutures naturally seperate.
If it was left to dry before the photos were taken there could be some misleading information in the point.
Second... the OP of those photos tried to imply that the seperation of the sutures was part of the MBD. When the bone dries the sutures naturally seperate.
If it was left to dry before the photos were taken there could be some misleading information in the point.
emysemys said:
terryo said:
Thank you.
I think most TFO members would agree, and Pio and Chewy and your turtle that runs from your hand, that you are quite the expert on not merely "suitable" but "ideal" vivariums for chelonians!
-EJ said:
How do you know what happens to the bone after it dries? Cracked open several tort shells have we? Minutes after death then?
I don't know WHAT point you are trying to make, by bashing photos that so obviously, and correctly depict the symptoms of the disease this thread is about.
Also, what in the world are you talking about, when you say sutures? I had to google it because it made no sense. This is what I found when I typed in "bone suture picture" http://msjensen.cehd.umn.edu/webanatomy/skeletons_skulls/skull_lateral_3.jpeg. The lines between the plates of the cranium are sutures.
Those photos of the pyramided tort shells DO NOT show sutures. They show porous and honeycombesque stacked bone.
Step back...you're getting upset over something that isn't worthy of your being upset.
The sutures are considered the part connecting the area of bone between what would be the scutes. So you would have to be looking down on the carapace with no scutes on the bone to see the sutures.
The sutures are considered the part connecting the area of bone between what would be the scutes. So you would have to be looking down on the carapace with no scutes on the bone to see the sutures.
That's exactly my point. The sutures of the shell don't even come into play in those photos. Therefore, no valid point is made with EJ's last post.
I agree with the general opinion that certain members here want to trot out their "knowledge" to shame the rest of the group. But I am tired of only reading "half" posts. This little dink and flicker tactic of flashing one tiny fact and not giving any background or explanation...its irritating.
I'm irritated. I will say it. Upset, not so much.
I agree with the general opinion that certain members here want to trot out their "knowledge" to shame the rest of the group. But I am tired of only reading "half" posts. This little dink and flicker tactic of flashing one tiny fact and not giving any background or explanation...its irritating.
I'm irritated. I will say it. Upset, not so much.
S
stells
Guest
I took on a Hermanns a couple of years back with MBD... it is a completely different ball game to that of a tortoise that is just pyramided... with MBD there can be trouble with other bones in the body not just the shell
Pyramiding is purely cosmetic... it is nice to grow them smooth but you can have a healthy tortoise with some degree of pyramiding even if it isn't quite what you set out to do...
With MBD it effects more than just the shell... i ended up with a very flat tortoise... with an extremely overgrown beak (which i have been told can also be a sign of MBD)... with some give in his shelll... he couldn't walk on his hind legs and his penis kept prolapsing as he had no muscle tone whatsoever in his tail... amounst other problems... he really wasn't well... maybe a thread is needed to outline MBD to stop the confusion of people thinking that pyramided means MBD...
I'm glad to say Frisbee (as i named him) is now doing loads better and runs around like a nutter now... but he will never be an eye pleasing tortoise.... as you can see below
Pyramiding is purely cosmetic... it is nice to grow them smooth but you can have a healthy tortoise with some degree of pyramiding even if it isn't quite what you set out to do...
With MBD it effects more than just the shell... i ended up with a very flat tortoise... with an extremely overgrown beak (which i have been told can also be a sign of MBD)... with some give in his shelll... he couldn't walk on his hind legs and his penis kept prolapsing as he had no muscle tone whatsoever in his tail... amounst other problems... he really wasn't well... maybe a thread is needed to outline MBD to stop the confusion of people thinking that pyramided means MBD...
I'm glad to say Frisbee (as i named him) is now doing loads better and runs around like a nutter now... but he will never be an eye pleasing tortoise.... as you can see below
To answer your question directly... yes. Necropsied my first tortoise in the late 70s. I worked for a wholesale reptile dealer. This gave me ample opportunity to learn a bit about both live and dead tortoises.
They are misleading photos. The ones with the cross section of the porous bone is normally porous. It is even slightly porous in the 'healthy' example.
The point that I'm trying to make is that there is a great deal of misleading information to 'obvious' problems.
If you would have added the word 'tortoise' to your search you would have found a little more and it would make my point clearer.
They are misleading photos. The ones with the cross section of the porous bone is normally porous. It is even slightly porous in the 'healthy' example.
The point that I'm trying to make is that there is a great deal of misleading information to 'obvious' problems.
If you would have added the word 'tortoise' to your search you would have found a little more and it would make my point clearer.
Meg90 said:
You still have yet to provide any evidence of your own to combat those "incorrect" photos. So I am going to go with the visual evidence already presented before I listen to someone say "Oh that's wrong, I know better" but yet, offer no valid infomation.
stells said:
Well, I showed Frisbee's photo to Taco and she thinks he is very handsome...and wants to be his pen-pal, if he agrees.
Please read my statement correctly...
"They are misleading photos. The ones with the cross section of the porous bone is normally porous. It is even slightly porous in the 'healthy' example."
...and the photos I was referring to were those linked to on the SW list.
In either case... nowhere did I say they were wrong.
The photos posted directly to this list are also misleading because you really can't tell where the cross sections were taken. Some sections of the tortoise shell is normally porous even in a healthy tortoise.
"They are misleading photos. The ones with the cross section of the porous bone is normally porous. It is even slightly porous in the 'healthy' example."
...and the photos I was referring to were those linked to on the SW list.
In either case... nowhere did I say they were wrong.
The photos posted directly to this list are also misleading because you really can't tell where the cross sections were taken. Some sections of the tortoise shell is normally porous even in a healthy tortoise.
Meg90 said:
-EJ said:
I hate to continue this argument, but yes, Ed, you did say that the photos were "erroneous." And you posted that statement right after I gave the link to the picture of the cross section of a desert tortoise's carapace. I don't think any Shelled Warrior photos were even referred to here, were they? And I gave the link not for the porosity of the bone, but for the pyramid, so the person who asked the question could see what the inside of the pyramid looked like.
I was wrong in using 'erroneous' That is why I went with 'misleading'.
Porous bone is usually associated with MBD. The misleading point is that not all pyramided tortoises have MBD. Also... a tortoise that does have MBD is not always pyramided. Also... thin and porous shells is not always an indication of MBD.
As mentioned... the photos you posted were taken out of context because you can't tell where the cross sections were taken. The bone structure is different depending on the location in the shell.
If the best you can do is attack my grammar/spelling then I can pretty much assume you don't have a counter point.
I think it was the thread that this was removed from where someone posted the link to the SW discussion on pyramiding where that OP tried to make the same point that a pyramided tortoise has MBD... which is wrong.
Porous bone is usually associated with MBD. The misleading point is that not all pyramided tortoises have MBD. Also... a tortoise that does have MBD is not always pyramided. Also... thin and porous shells is not always an indication of MBD.
As mentioned... the photos you posted were taken out of context because you can't tell where the cross sections were taken. The bone structure is different depending on the location in the shell.
If the best you can do is attack my grammar/spelling then I can pretty much assume you don't have a counter point.
I think it was the thread that this was removed from where someone posted the link to the SW discussion on pyramiding where that OP tried to make the same point that a pyramided tortoise has MBD... which is wrong.
emysemys said:
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