EJ and pyramiding

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Madkins007

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In the thread http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-10585-page-2.html, GBTortoises said, in part:

"Lack of proper humidity is likely a major cause of pyramiding but not the only cause. A combination of other contributing factors may also be: diet (too rich in vitamins), excessive use of vitamin supplements, excessive heat, an area too small for proper activity and exercise based on the size and number of animals in a given area. "

To which EJ replied, in part:

"Hey... don't take this personal... but when I read this my first thoughts were... BS... BS... BS. There is absolutely no evidence to support any of this opinion. I highly suspect that this is not your opinion.

Yes... nutrition does play a good part but to single out what part of nutrition is impossible.

The size of the enclosure is definately not a major factor.

I can't help but think this is a cut and paste from an 'organization' we all know and love."

Now... I have to admit that I often find EJ's answers a bit vague- I sometimes have difficulty figuring out what his usually very brief comments refer to.

In this case, I am unsure what EJ thinks does and does not cause pyramiding- other than size not being a factor, so I started this thread primarily to get EJ's take on this hot topic.

Please understand, EJ, that I have no intention of this being any form of confrontation- I am just wondering what a well-experienced keeper thinks.
 

reptylefreek

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Yes after the last thread that Yvonne stopped I was also VERY interested in how EJ takes care of his torts. Especially the vitamin D3 part. Dont know if you mind sharing your secrets...lol. I am interested in getting a redfoot and wanted to hear how someone would attempt to supplement with D3 if needed.
 

Yvonne G

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Oh boy! A thread especially for Ed!! I'm glad you started this thread because I understand that Ed has the experience, but sometimes his answers leave me with question marks over my head. Maybe we can get some clarification here.

I always thought that humidity, diet, heat, exercise, etc. all work together to grow a smooth tortoise, and are all important factors. Ed, are you saying that exercise (a too small habitat) isn't one of the causes?

Seems like Ed's been on the computer day and night for the past two days and now when he has two threads dedicated to him, he's gone!
 

Kayti

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Regardless of an overly small habitat's effect on pyramiding, are we in agreement that a too small habitat is psychologically cruel?
I decided to create a larger habitat for my Russians because (I was advised and agreed with that) more space created 1) more opportunities for the tortoises to self regulate temperature and humidity,
2) more space for the tortoises to exercise and 3) more space for visual barriers and enrichment.
(I'm sure there are other benefits I'm overlooking at the moment too.)

So given all of these reasons, I don't understand why anyone would advocate for anything smaller than the biggest enclosure you can provide, within reason. How could a small enclosure ever be a good thing?
I am grateful and my tortoises are grateful for the people who advised me (respectfully) that my enclosure was not adequate. Even if that is not what caused them to pyramid, it's not like it'll harm them to have more room!

I guess this is off topic a bit, but I think psychological health should be a consideration when dispensing care advice, even if my initial question was about pyramiding.
However, I do believe that exercise has a relationship to pyramiding as well.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Just as an FYI...Yvonne didn't close that thread, I did. I closed it because it was supposed to be about pyramiding in a small Russian tortoise. A new keeper asked for help and the thread ended up being hijacked and turned into a debate about Ed and his husbandry, and me and my rudeness... While I understand this is also a social site, when a new keeper asks for help we need to give that keeper the advice he asked for not start in on Ed and his husbandry, or any other debate.
So now Ed has his own thread and I am sure he will join in soon. Well done Madkins!
 

reptylefreek

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Maggie I'm talking about the "why do people breed sulcatas" debate. That didn't start about a russian that I knew of... and Yvonne was the last person to post saying that she had the last word. So unless your breaking into your sisters account :p, I thought she closed it
 

Redfoot NERD

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Not knowing much [ if any ] about the tortoises from the UK/Mediterranean 'region'.. I will never comment of those species.

And keeping in mind we do wonder what Ed considers "proper-husbandry" I also have to ask [ about his redfoots ] Mark!

I have seen pics of Ed's redfoots.. "Show us what your Mazuri munchin redfoots look like Ed"?

NERD
 
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stells

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I do have to wonder when people say about "proper husbandry"... is there really such a thing?

Everybody does it differently in my eyes... and no two keepers can keep tortoises the same...

Just because you don't agree with someones husbandry does that mean its not "proper husbandry"...

There are of course extremes when the animals aren't kept well and don't get everything they need... and the owner is lacking in the basics... but when someone is succeeding to keep multiple species... and grow them well... and get eggs... but does it differently to others that does not mean the husbandry isn't "proper"...
 

Madkins007

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Dang- it sort of sounds like we are all waiting for EJ to show up and pounce on him.

EJ- as the OP, I just really would like to know what your thoughts on pyramiding are and maybe some of the why. I don't care about photos or other care issues here, and I do not plan on this being an ambush or anything. Just sheer curiosity and a desire to learn.
 

TylerStewart

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stells said:
I do have to wonder when people say about "proper husbandry"... is there really such a thing?

Everybody does it differently in my eyes... and no two keepers can keep tortoises the same...

Just because you don't agree with someones husbandry does that mean its not "proper husbandry"...

There are of course extremes when the animals aren't kept well and don't get everything they need... and the owner is lacking in the basics... but when someone is succeeding to keep multiple species... and grow them well... and get eggs... but does it differently to others that does not mean the husbandry isn't "proper"...

Good post! There are many definitions of "proper husbandry," and most people have enough class that they don't think their way is the only way.

Love it or hate it, there's no shortage of great looking, perfectly smooth "Mazuri Munchin Redfoots (and other species for that matter)."
 

Candy

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I posted pictures of Dale not to long ago and a few of you commented on how smooth his shell is, but to tell you the truth all I do is feed him what he likes and give him humidity and I'm pretty sure it's not enough humidity, but I try. So I have to just be grateful I guess that he looks like that. I think as long as you try and you love what you're doing and your tortoise is happy and healthly that is all that really matters.
 

terryo

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Candy said:
I posted pictures of Dale not to long ago and a few of you commented on how smooth his shell is, but to tell you the truth all I do is feed him what he likes and give him humidity and I'm pretty sure it's not enough humidity, but I try. So I have to just be grateful I guess that he looks like that. I think as long as you try and you love what you're doing and your tortoise is happy and healthly that is all that really matters.

Whatever you're doing, boy are you doing it right. Dale is beautiful.
 
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stells

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Redfoot NERD said:
stells said:
My post was more directed at Terry than Ed...

Why Kelly?

Because you bought up in this thread the "proper husbandry" comment... What is your definition of "proper husbandry"...
 

-EJ

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I lost my old computer to some malware while visiting my favorite pornsite... I gotta quit doing that...

Posted by reptylefreek - 11-26-2009 07:10 PM
Yes after the last thread that Yvonne stopped I was also VERY interested in how EJ takes care of his torts. Especially the vitamin D3 part. Dont know if you mind sharing your secrets...lol. I am interested in getting a redfoot and wanted to hear how someone would attempt to supplement with D3 if needed.

Ed's Reply
How I keep my tortoises is very well documented and out there. The two books I wrote and the many articles in reptiles is based on the care that I provide for my tortoises. Check out the numerous posts on Mazuri.

Posted by emysemys - 11-26-2009 09:14 PM
I always thought that humidity, diet, heat, exercise, etc. all work together to grow a smooth tortoise, and are all important factors. Ed, are you saying that exercise (a too small habitat) isn't one of the causes?

Ed's Reply
They are all factors but I believe that heat and hydration are the most important ones. I've seen tortoises raised on apparently horrid diets that look fantastic. The other components mentioned might be factors but I don't think they are overly important.

Posted by Kayti - 11-26-2009 09:48 PM
Regardless of an overly small habitat's effect on pyramiding, are we in agreement that a too small habitat is psychologically cruel?

So given all of these reasons, I don't understand why anyone would advocate for anything smaller than the biggest enclosure you can provide, within reason. How could a small enclosure ever be a good thing?

Ed's Reply
This would imply that tortoise is thinking 'woes me...' I don't think that's the case. The tortoise is not having any pain inflicted so long as it's needs are being met. You really can't say what a tortoise is thinking.

I actually covered this in one of my books. In the case of a hatchling... you're not going to place it in a 1acre plot even if you have it available.

How big are your enclosures for the animals you hibernate?

Posted by Redfoot NERD - 11-28-2009 09:48 AM
Not knowing much [ if any ] about the tortoises from the UK/Mediterranean 'region'.. I will never comment of those species.

And keeping in mind we do wonder what Ed considers "proper-husbandry" I also have to ask [ about his redfoots ] Mark!

I have seen pics of Ed's redfoots.. "Show us what your Mazuri munchin redfoots look like Ed"?

Ed's Reply
I think I can say I have a fairly good idea of how folks keep their reptiles in the UK in both the north and the south having visited many collections over the years present and past. Add to this the years of corresponding and friendships that have come and gone.

There is a big difference between proper, acceptable and ideal. You can have proper acceptable and proper ideal. Terry... how are you keeping your tortoises right now? Would you consider that ideal or acceptable. Either are proper.

I think my Mazuri Munchin RFs look quite good.

Posted by Madkins007 - 11-28-2009 05:10 PM
EJ- as the OP, I just really would like to know what your thoughts on pyramiding are and maybe some of the why.

Ed's reply
A few other keepers believe that it is as simple as that very fine boundry margin between the scutes. AH has tried to explain it in a pretty scientific manner and I think he comes close. I haven't been able to find a reference which either supports or disputes the idea.

The gist of my idea is that the keratin kind of 'floats' on the bone structure of the shell. If the keratin is not allowed to expand for one reason or another the bone still needs to grow if the right conditions are provided. The bone is then forced to push up rather than out. Keep in mind that bone grows by adding layers and at the sutures or bone plate boundries(which are nowhere near the scute layers). You'll notice that the pyramids corrispond to the scute boundries and not the bone boundries. Both heat and hydration probably have a strong effect on the scute boundies.

That's my thoughts on the topic.

Hope this get's me caught up.
 

Redfootedboxturtles

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Here is an easy question. Is tortoise care really this overly complicated? I have been on this forum for over a year now and it seems like we are till debating on the same topics.
 

-EJ

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This hobby can be made as simple or as complicated as you like.

These very same topics get redebated on a regular basis and have done so for the last 10 years I've been on the net.

The 'know it alls' say it isn't worth debating considering it was discussed and no conclusion was derived. I like the debating because it gives insight into the methods and ideas of other keepers (hence... new material)

Ahh the debate... there is no correct or one answer on many of these topics... only feeling and speculation. It seems feeling is one of the stronger drives.

Redfootedboxturtles said:
Here is an easy question. Is tortoise care really this overly complicated? I have been on this forum for over a year now and it seems like we are till debating on the same topics.
 
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