I for one do enjoy seeing the photo's as they grow and hope you will continue to share them with us!!!
EricIvins said:I personally don't find them interestesting at all, because of the fact that its all opinionated, biased drivel that doesn't help or guide anyone.......
Someone who wants to do the reasearch should go to an academic database and go from there.......Being able to access peer reviewed literature that presents a valid argument or compare/contrast is the way to go..........
Baoh said:I recommend performing personal research with a review of actual scientific research when possible.
Here is one option.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
Neltharion said:Baoh said:I recommend performing personal research with a review of actual scientific research when possible.
Here is one option.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
I had actually read that one too. Nice piece of scientific reading. But like I said in a prior response, I was specifically looking for articles related to hybrids within the context of the pet industry.
This thread had inspired my curiosity. I took the time to read up on hybrids, not just in reptiles but other animals as well. You might find these articles interesting:
Neltharion said:bfmorris said:I've read this thread very carefully instead of looking at the photos and commenting specifically about the animals as I did in my previous post.
I don't understand the point of this thread.
This thread had inspired my curiosity. I took the time to read up on hybrids, not just in reptiles but other animals as well. You might find these articles interesting:
http://www.reptilechannel.com/lizards/breeding-lizards/gold-dust-day-geckos.aspx
http://feistyhome.phpwebhosting.com/hybrids.htm
http://www.sydneycichlid.com/cichlid-hybrids.htm
http://cichlidresearch.com/hybrids.html
http://jason-parent.suite101.com/ligers-and-tigons-hybrid-big-cats-a152649
emysemys said:JD:
I think you hit the nail on the head...you posted in the wrong section. It really isn't a debate, but that's the section it is in.
I hope you continue to share pictures of your Lepracuttas. I'm very interested in watching them grow, as are many of our members. No one is thinking any less of YOU because you have the dreaded hybred tortoises. We have strong feelings about the subject one way or the other, but not against you personally or the fact that you own them.
In a couple months I hope to see more pictures of them, but posted in the Tortoise Photo section. Pretty please???
Baoh said:That one what? I linked to a database, not an article. It is not a piece of scientific reading. It is an electronic library in which scientific articles, studies, and other literature may be found.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2453525/
That does not specifically request information as relating to hybrids in the pet industry and you did not say so in a prior response in this thread. Perhaps in another thread such a thing was mentioned, though. I am only speaking to this one.
The abstract is what popped up for me on search results. I browsed the rest of the database, but the abstract is what I was referring to.
The thread didn't specifically call out hybrids in the pet industry, but one of the key points of the debate centers around the impacts of these hybrids in the pet industry.
bfmorris said:Why would you think I'd find them interesting? My point above, was that the opening post is plagiarism.
You also made these series of statements: "What does one do with them in the long term, given there isn't anything to be gained from breeding them. Breed them to each other? meh. Breed them back to leopard or sulcata? meh. Never allow them to breed anything? meh. Seems they are a fun novelty, and a dead end, all in one."
For someone that had thought out what to do with these animals and drawn the conclusion that they were a novelty and a dead end, I thought you might find the viewpoints of others on the same subject something of interest.
Neltharion said:The abstract is what popped up for me on search results. I browsed the rest of the database, but the abstract is what I was referring to.
The thread didn't specifically call out hybrids in the pet industry, but one of the key points of the debate centers around the impacts of these hybrids in the pet industry.
N2TORTS said:With that said , I still think they are really cool and becoming very interesting as they mature. - - - - You can be sure I won’t post these guys again , and they will remain the " Enigma" or thorn in my back as viewed by others.
Happy~tort~N
~peace~
JD~
Neltharion said:For someone that had thought out what to do with these animals and drawn the conclusion that they were a novelty and a dead end, I thought you might find the viewpoints of others on the same subject something of interest.
Baoh said:Surely, but my link was only to the database itself. The exchange seemed no different to me than if I told you about the Philadelphia Library and you told me "it" was an interesting book. No super-big deal, though, now that I know what you meant.
That may be the case, but you said, "But like I said in a prior response, I was specifically looking for articles related to hybrids within the context of the pet industry." If this, using "but", is meant as a counter to the high quality published data because it is not specific enough to what you were looking for, it is not justified by what you said in a prior response. You may have intended that, of course, but it was not communicated. Again, no worries now that I know what you meant.
Neltharion said:Baoh said:Surely, but my link was only to the database itself. The exchange seemed no different to me than if I told you about the Philadelphia Library and you told me "it" was an interesting book. No super-big deal, though, now that I know what you meant.
That may be the case, but you said, "But like I said in a prior response, I was specifically looking for articles related to hybrids within the context of the pet industry." If this, using "but", is meant as a counter to the high quality published data because it is not specific enough to what you were looking for, it is not justified by what you said in a prior response. You may have intended that, of course, but it was not communicated. Again, no worries now that I know what you meant.
When I saw your link to the NCBI website, I assumed it was the same direct link to the abstract that came up for me on the search engine hit, and didn't realize that it was a link to the entire database.
The prior response that I am referencing is in Post 82 to ericivens, which did come after you had posted that link. In no way am I attempting to counter or discredit research data, I am merely stating that I was looking for information within a specific context which was not stated in my original post.
dmmj said:I want a half man half monkey
dmmj said:I will settle this once and for all, with 2 words. Flying monkeys, need I say more?
Terry Allan Hall said:The questions, as I see it, boils down to these:
(1) What are the odds that a Sulcata X Leopard tortoise is viable (can reproduce)?
(1) I'm assuming that it'd be like a horse/donkey mule, in that males NEVER are viable and females VERY rarely are viable, so it's unlikely to ever be a real problem.
(3) Probably none, what w/ "hybrid vigor", but, again, that's simply a guess.
GeoTerraTestudo said:Terry Allan Hall said:The questions, as I see it, boils down to these:
(1) What are the odds that a Sulcata X Leopard tortoise is viable (can reproduce)?
Note: viability of a hybrid refers to its ability to lead a long, healthy life as an individual. This is separate from fertility, which refers to the hybrid's ability to reproduce.
(1) I'm assuming that it'd be like a horse/donkey mule, in that males NEVER are viable and females VERY rarely are viable, so it's unlikely to ever be a real problem.
This is known as Haldane's Rule, in which the heterogametic sex is more likely to be sterile as a hybrid. In mammals, females have two X chromosomes, and males have one X and one Y. Reptiles, however, have environmental sex determination, with higher temperatures leading to females in chelonians (and higher temps leading to males in crocodilians and squamates). Thus, Haldane's Rule might not apply.
Overall, regardless of chromosome overlap, it's the amount of gene overlap that really matters. Thus, if two tortoises have enough different gene loci, then their offspring would probably be unviable or infertile.
(3) Probably none, what w/ "hybrid vigor", but, again, that's simply a guess.
Again, depends on the genetic distance. A hybrid between two closely related tortoise species, even if infertile, would probably be healthy or even vigorous as an individual. The farther out you go, the more likely it is that the offspring will not be viable.