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PETA

Discussion in 'Debatable Topics' started by Ben02, Jun 30, 2019.

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  1. Reptilony

    Reptilony Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know this particular individual and what he said in the past but if he does intentionally tries to upset you I agree that is wrong. Im satisfied we could settle this as rational men.
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  2. Kapidolo Farms

    Kapidolo Farms Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    A whole other track, not touched on here, is legally demanded use of laboratory animals to test drug candidates. Who demands it, The Food and Drug Administration. All drugs must be tested on two rodent models, and one non-rodent model before the drug development company can propose it for use with humans. That usually entails mice and rats, then dogs or monkeys.

    The use on the drug on non-human models is to evaluate many aspects of the drug efficacy and the animals' response to the drug. Then if the drug might be used in women, it needs to be used on some animal with developing fetuses. Usually rabbits.

    Why would the FDA do this? Drugs had been allowed into the market based on speculated outcomes with humans, only to injure or kill many people before being recalled or eliminated. So, these compounds are tested on model organisms.

    I first learned PETA, ALF etc. were considered terrorist organization in 2003 from former FBI agents hired as consultants to some of the bigger BioPharma companies. It was not so much the conflicted message that warrants as label 'terrorist organization', as it was/is the tactics they use. Result of tactics is a measure for classification, but the actual tactics and methods of recruitment and methods of propaganda, as well as what they actually do are what meet the criteria of terrorist organization.

    They persist as they are not considered a threat to our government or people in general. They do damage to vested interest of human health when they 'go after' drug companies, who have more $ to influence politicians/agencies. That is why they have pulled far back from those fronts of activity.

    In turn this mean they target lower hanging fruit, animal hobbyists, and smaller farming entities. They have been shouted out of the FDA required use of animal models. Their driver is self interest for income, like anyone else, and as long as they don't step on the toes of entities with bigger feet, they are left to us, against our interest in animal keeping.

    There is indeed cruelty associated with some animal keeping, and good scientific ethical and transparent ways to deal with it. PETA prefers to emot people based on station-in-life guilt. That is social villainy. It is the same kind of irrational prompting that post death promises are used to recruit people into tother kinds of organizations.

    Station-in-life guilt is the remorse of existing you see in the mirror, and instead of being helpful to people who might experience this feeling, they suck money and help from them. It is on par with inappropriate contact with minors being perpetrated by those who are charged in life to protect minors.

    That is all.
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  3. mark1

    mark1 Well-Known Member

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    I can tell you mark has a habit to sticking to what he knows , he's not that bright and sticking to what he knows makes him appear smarter than he is ….mark is open minded , he's just carful what he lets in …....…. I looked at when the last time you and I posted on the same thread aside from this one , I can only get 10 pages of history , 199 of your last post , the only time in those 10 pages aside from this post was once jun 26 ….. was about fluid injections , whatever experience you have with them I really don't care , they don't do me any good , I shared my experiences with them , which is quite a bit , best I can tell they've all been positive …….. the fact you think i'm searching for you , maybe you can talk to someone about that , I think it may be therapeutic for you...…..


    back to peta

    do you think medical research using apes should be regulated ?

    it is today , how did that happen ?????/

    do you think it's ok to shackle a completely cognizant cow , suspend them from their legs and start butchering them , and let them die in the process ?

    we don't today , how did that happen ……...

    when i was young dog fighting was done openly , was a minor misdemeanor , there were states it was legal , should it be legal ?

    it's not today , how did that come about ?

    if you are thinking peta , which if you believe their claimed membership , represents .00077% of the population , is gonna end the meat industry , force us to be vegetarians , stop folks from having pets , breeding dogs , racing horses , and bring an end to domestic animal which dates back possibly 30 centuries , there is a pretty good chance your as delusional as them………..


    if you think they're a thorn in the side of folks in your business , from my perspective they should be ……… don't give them ammo and you'll be fine , you need to police your industry better ……...

    as I said peta didn't cause the pitbull problem , they were given the ammo , I seen it firsthand ……. if and when breeding dogs gets further regulated , it's not going to be peta doing , it's going to be the irresponsible folks giving them their ammunition , i'm watching it happen ……….

    I can name a couple dozen things that have changed in my life for the better for the animals , who was responsible , folks with animal interest at heart , certainly quite a few were backed by peta ……..

    i'd like to hear the horror stories about peta aside from folks making a bunch of money off it , and them putting down 74% of their rescues …….. 64% are put down by shelters nationwide , you have to assume some of their rescues are in pretty rough shape ?

    lots of stuff they've done , needed done , if someone can do it better , they should …….. you'd think with as much money as there is to made someone would take it on …… they should be easy to put out of business , seems nobody likes them , and they are a "terrorist" org ……..
  4. Keeks

    Keeks New Member

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    WOAHHHH! Tom, thank you for that! Keep preaching! Your words are on point & educational.
  5. Russiantortylady

    Russiantortylady Member Tortoise Club

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    How did this subject even get on here??? All we do is support one another and ask questions and give educated answers............Nobody on here is disrespecting their animals or not caring for them, for crying out loud people on here are rescuing them if they need to be. I think they miss named PETA, it should be PAIN - IN - THE - ***!!
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  6. Ben02

    Ben02 Well-Known Member

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    PETA releases videos on their YouTube account which involve an “inside man” working at petco/pet smart. They record and document what happens behind the scenes i.e living conditions and how the animals are treated.

    These videos actually inspired me to create this thread and see all your opinions, very wide spectrum of opinions aswell which I’m really pleased of so thank you all for that.

    Now back to these videos.... something feels odd, there are animals on show that are covered in blood, limbs missing etc... (these are shown to the public in display enclosures) But when have you ever walked in to a pet shop and seen a bearded dragon with a bleeding, severed limb and covered in blood and muck? Definitely not me, but that just might be my experience. Once again I say..... Discuss!!!

    I would add a link to one video in particular but it’s quite gruesome and depressing and i won’t add it in case a youngster stumbles across it. I urge you to search it on YouTube though.
  7. Blackdog1714

    Blackdog1714 Well-Known Member

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    AMERICA- good or bad I love free speech
  8. GardenDmpls

    GardenDmpls New Member

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    Ben, they fake a lot of the videos or misrepresent what is in them. They show a picture of cows walking over a barn drainage channel a few inches deep and state that these cows are being forced to live in deep manure pits. Knowing that cows lie down a lot (cud chewing time) and seeing these cows are clean down to their cow ankles (forget the term for that) it is obvious this is not true, but if you are not familiar with the ways of cows, you might believe it.
  9. William Lee Kohler

    William Lee Kohler Active Member

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    Just like al gore and the liar in chief at the sierra club:mad:!
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  10. Tom

    Tom The Dog Trainer 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club

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    Pet stores are typically staffed by young people who are often paid minimum wage, or close to it. Mistakes are bound to happen. some people are thoughtless or careless. The management does its best, in all cases that I know of, and I know of many cases, to hire good people, train them well, and oversee their daily chores. A mistake like an animal being injured or discarded is horrible, and most pet store employees work tirelessly to avoid such things, no different than you or I try to avoid such things. Animal rights groups either cause these mistakes on purpose, or simply document these rare occurrences and try to make it seem like it happens every day all over the globe and the whole pet industry should be shut down. Case in point: To demonstrate how poorly circus elephants were treated, animal rightist "investigators" would turn off their cameras, throw an M-80 toward the elephants as they were being moved about, then start up the cameras and video the elephant trainers struggling to keep their panicked animals under control after the explosion. The circus' parent company filed suit against them and won an $80 million dollar judgement against the animal rightists a few years ago. It took many years and millions in legal fees to win this judgement, and most people that PETA or HSUS go after don't have this kind of time or money. They now choose their targets more carefully.

    I know of undercover PETA operatives in my own industry. These people were hired and trained as caretakers for the animals. They couldn't find anything wrong to document, so they created "problems" to document. In one case, the lady was supposed to clean the owl enclosure daily. She was paid, trained, and instructed to do so. Over a four day stretch of her being on duty, she skipped cleaning the owl's enclosure and took pics and video of all the poop collected under the owls night perch as "proof" of poor conditions and lack of care. The management trusted her to do her job and she was promptly fired as soon as her dereliction of duty was discovered. The enclosure was definitely dirty. It was dirty because the PETA operative who was being paid clean it every day wasn't cleaning it!

    In another case, a pig was dumped off at another animal ranch. This pig was not theirs, and they'd never used it in film. The pig had some open sores on on it and so this company called in their vet, at their own expense, to see what was wrong with the pig and pay to treat it. It wasn't even their pig! They just wanted to do the right thing, at a cost of hundreds of dollars, and make sure this pig was looked after and kept well until they could find it a suitable home. The undercover PETA operative took pics and video of this pig and tried to make it look and seem like the animal was abused and neglected after the greedy animal exploiters used it to make money. It was a total lie. A complete fabrication. But if you looked at the pictures, listened to the sad music, and believed what you were being told in their shocking video, you'd probably cry. PETA turned a good deed, a very expensive good deed, into a case of "animal abuse" and attempted to slander the good people who were paying hundreds of dollars out of their own pockets to help an animal in need that was dumped on them.

    When I say these are bad people and liars, I am not exaggerating.
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  11. Tom

    Tom The Dog Trainer 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club

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    The two quoted paragraphs directly conflict each other. The first paragraph conflicts with itself, and contradicts the rest of your posts.

    You stick to what you know? How do you know my industry? How many day have you spent on a film set or training animals for film? How many production meetings have you sat in with directors, producers and department heads? You know nothing about my industry, its self-policing tactics and from the posts in this thread, you clearly know lighting about the people attacking us. What you know is the lies reported by the left wing main stream media, and the animal rights organizations themselves. That is the info you've been "careful to let in..."

    You think we should be relentlessly attacked and the victim of lies and false accusations? Really? You think its okay that we should have to spend millions of dollars on defending ourselves from frivolous baseless lawsuits? You think we should be subject to law after law and regulation upon regulation that does nothing to stop real animal abusers but costs us, the good guys, thousands of dollars annually? You think I should have to spend my time in court and protesting to stop yet another useless animal rights law from getting passed, instead of spending my time taking care of and enjoying those animals? If yes, then your perspective is wrong. Dead wrong.

    Don't give them ammo and we'll be fine? That's absurd. We don't give them ammo. They make stuff up. And we most certainly will not be fine, and there is proof of that all around for anyone who wants to see it. You are wrong. You don't understand the what the problem is, or the severity of the problem. You don't understand these things because it is not involved in the life you live daily. You don't understand these things because you are not sticking to what you know. Downplaying what these people are up to and what they are accomplishing because you are ignorant about what is going on helps no one except our enemies.
  12. TammyJ

    TammyJ Well-Known Member

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    We all talk about what we know, or think we know. Remember guys, we are all on the side of what is right, and on each other's side when it comes to good animal care and keeping!
    By the way, can I ask about Greenpeace? Are they OK? It seems to me that they are, but then PETA used to seem OK to me too once.
  13. Kapidolo Farms

    Kapidolo Farms Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    sometimes leadership of good organizations can turn them bad. Often it's not a day and night to see the difference. Many super large NGO's have become not so thrifty and then draw in people who perpetuate that. Then they are just big money machines, still creating result, but much much less effective per dollar spent. I don't follow GreenPeace specifically, but I don't recall them falling into this cycle. But their efforts have left much room for others to get into their original space, or else the Seas Shepard organization would not be around.

    It is very difficult to sort some of the relationships out between these organizations and their effectiveness. There is still yet another NGO that tracks and ranks NGO for how they spend money and their effectiveness. FWIW PETA is never rated high at all.
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  14. Billna the 2

    Billna the 2 Well-Known Member

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    All this reading is making my head hurt....I agree
  15. mark1

    mark1 Well-Known Member

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    are you stalking me tom ????? i'm getting a little paranoid , lol ………...

    your kidding right ???? animals in the entertainment industry are in safe hands ?????? rescues are full of chimps and orangutans from the entertainment industry …….. show me the pics of you folks with all the 16-20yr old 130lb actor chimps ????? or the three 30yr old 160 lb male chimps walking hand in hand through the parking lot with his trainer ….....the only place you'll find them is rescues , medical labs , or locked in cages ........the usda and awa violations , fines and lifetime suspension against animal "trainers" in the entertainment industry are to numerous to get into , peta doesn't need to have anything to do with it …… I seen the Canadian guy with the baby tiger , whipping the **** out him , saying he liked to hit them in the face or the paws when the paw is on something because it hurts more , the tiger went belly up and the moron said he was challenging him ? I got news for you animal trainer , belly up isn't a challenge in any animal …….. the little tiger was scared s****less , confused , and didn't know what the moron wanted ……… the "trainer" throwing the dog in the pool , that was a skill , lol …….. if that dog wasn't afraid of water before , he is now , unless he's a scuba diver dog , when he went under that should have sealed it …… to my surprise the supplemental footage of the dog happily doing the stunt earlier in the day never came out , I wonder why …… any industry making money off animals needs monitored by an outside independent source , if you don't realize that , you just need to pay a little better attention …….. I been doing this stuff a long long long time . I seen long ago that negative consequences are the most powerful and lasting motivators , the easiest to use , and definitely they have the ability to be the most damaging ………. in the hands of morons like the two I just mentioned above , without question damaging …….

    if I missed anything in your post it's because I skimmed it , I rarely read your post ………….
  16. Tom

    Tom The Dog Trainer 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club

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    Your ignorance abounds, as usual.

    The chimps and orangutans that we worked with are in sanctuaries, not rescues. We, of our own accord, built an extra charge into their daily rental fees to pay for those sanctuaries where they are loved and properly cared for. Many producers complained about the extra money. We explained that we have a responsibility to care for these animals for life, and made them pay it if they wanted our animals on set.

    I have no idea what the "awa" is, but they having nothing to do with my industry. The reputable companies that I deal with have no issues with their USDA permits or inspectors. During our bi-annual unannounced inspections, they tell us how enjoyable it is to inspect our compounds because the animals are so well cared for and looked after.

    There is only one trainer I know of whose license has been suspended by the USDA. He's a wanted criminal in several states, goes by many aliases, or uses other people's names to do business with, and he's been caught using USDA license numbers from reputable companies without their knowledge or consent. He's been blackballed by all reputable people in this industry for decades, but he's sneaky and keeps inventing new ways to fool people. You can't blame the actions of this criminal on the rest of us. We all turn him in and report him every chance we get. Can't self-police any more than that.

    I have no idea what you are talking about with a tiger in Canada, but that is no one I know and know one I do business with. There are a lot of crooked people in the entertainment industry that will try to hire anyone to save a buck. That is how disreputable people get hired and make the rest of us look bad. That isn't us. That is some wannabe with a pet that has no business on a film set.

    Now for the dog "being thrown in to the water" incident. This one example proves my point about PETA's lies, your ignorance, and the gullibility of some people who act on their emotions without thinking. That dog had been training in that pool for weeks with the fans and water sloshing. That dog loves to jump in the water and loved jumping into that pool. They had trained the dogs to jump in over at the far end. After successfully getting the dog to do it as scripted 7 or 8 times, the director asked to have the dog jump in from that weird angle and swim diagonally across the pool. Trainers gave it a try. Why wouldn't they? Dog didn't want to jump in from there because it had been trained to jump in from the other end all those weeks. Any one who has ever trained a dog to jump in water knows they tend to pattern that way. My own dogs do this in my own pool. They favor one spot as their jumping in point and will run to that spot before jumping in. I spend time working with them to get them to jump in from anywhere. As soon as the trainer let go of the dog after trying unsuccessfully to get it into the water, the dog ran around to the "correct" spot and jumped right in. Again. Ever wonder why no one ever saw the rest of that footage? Because PETA is the one that released it and they don't want you to see the rest because you'll know it was a happy dog doing what it loved to do. Know why the studios didn't release their behind the scenes footage of what really happened? Some execs in some office decided it would be best to let it all blow over and they didn't want to make PETA more mad at them and incite more lies and attacks on their movie. Cowards missed their chance to slap PETA down and expose them for the frauds they are. If a dog was really being abused and PETA had video proof of it, why did they sit on that footage for 15 months and only release when the film was about to premier? Why, if they care so much about stopping abuse would they let the alleged "abuse" go on for 15 months before speaking up and releasing the footage? Because there was no abuse, they don't care about abuse, and they were pulling yet another dishonest political stunt to hurt the animal training industry and get more donations. Further, if you see that video as evidence of dogs abuse, then every one in America who has ever given their dog a bath is a dog abuser. You don't know the whole story, but you allowed yourself to be intentionally misled and you believed what you wanted to believe. Then YOU get on the internet and malign a good man. Shame on you sir. PETA tells you a pack of lies and then you get on the internet and bad mouth a good man that you don't even know. I've known that man for decades. He is a good trainer and a good person. He is one of the most gentle trainers around and so is the woman trainer who was in the pool calling the dog. Both of them are personal friends of mine, and the phony BS that you believed created a lot of problems for them that they did not deserve. Ignorance like what you've demonstrated here, continues to cause problems.

    As far as independent monitoring by an outside source, we have that. The American Humane Association has been doing it for decades. We have another one that has been around for a few years now called MAP, Movie Animals Protected. The AHA and the county animal control both did and in-depth investigation of the above referenced dog incident and both declared that there had been absolutely no wrong-doing or abuse of any kind. American Humane had a rep on the set the day that film footage was taken by a crew member's phone and there was nothing in the report about abuse because there was none to report. I had a Humane rep on set with me today. She didn't have any abuse to report either. Just a happy dog doing what he loves doing.
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  17. dmmj

    dmmj The member formerly known as captain awesome Moderator 10 Year Member!

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    So I remember PETA. Using a clip of the CGI dog jumping into the waterfall as "proof". That animals were working in unsafe conditions
  18. SPILL

    SPILL Member

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    Was this the video with severing injured limbs and using glue traps usually used for mice to catch escapees? If so that was the wholesale breeder that sold to PetSmart so not animals that would ever be seen in the stores. I remember discussion on another board when the video first came out but never learned what came of it.
  19. Yvonne G

    Yvonne G Old Timer TFO Admin 10 Year Member! Platinum Tortoise Club

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    This thread has gotten a bit heated. I'm not the OP, but I don't think he intended for it to be a debate or either side trying to convince the other side of rightness or wrongness. You've all stated what the OP has wanted, and that is, how you feel about PETA. If you'd all like to debate the subject, start your own thread.
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