Pyramiding

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nrfitchett4

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So what do y'all think is the main cause?
too much protein
not enough UVB
not enough water

I think after reading what I can find, that Humidity is number 1.
UVB would be next I think.
Just because I've seen pics of turtles basking under UVB that still pyramid.
 

TKCARDANDCOIN

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For me it is protien,uvb and then humidity.i have had my sulcata for almost 5 years and raised her from a hatchling.I kept her under uvb or sun,little protien and no humidity other than a weekly soak and have had great results.She has very little pyramiding if any at all. All of this goes along with a varied diet of greens and hay and a fresh bowl of water.
 

tortoisenerd

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I would agree that from looking at the recent research (there was a study of moist paper towels vs. dry paper towels and the results speak for themselves), humidity seems to be a primary concern. I know that the other factors have been proven as well, so we should strive to reduce all factors that can cause pyramiding in torts.
 

terryo

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I know many keepers that have no UVB for their Redfoots and they are very smooth. They seem to think it is due to high humidity. I only have 1 tortoise and so far he is smooth, having a very humid hide and vey little UVB filtered through a screen.
 

TKCARDANDCOIN

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I guess this is debateable.I have had my sulcata(flipper) for almost 5 years.She was the size of a half dollar when i got her and today she is 23 pounds and 15 inches with very little pyramiding.I have raised her under 5.0 uvb in the winter and outside in natural sunlight during summer.Fresh greens and hay with calcium supp. twice a week and reptolife vitamin once a week along with weekly soaks.Fresh water every day with a dry substrate and i have had no problems.I have also raised two russian torts the same way with no problems.These are my results and humidity in my enclosures does not seem to be a factor for my torts.thanks,tom.
 

-EJ

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It's kind of pointless to say that it is too much protein when you fail to mention exactly what is too much protein.

I along with many keepers have raised wonderful looking tortoises without UVB. The UVB bulbs that are currently on the market have only been readily available for the last 10 or so years. Before that only the most serious collector knew where to find them let alone use them for tortoises.

I have yet to find any evidence... let alone proof... that protein causes pyramiding or is a major contributing factor. It has to be a factor only because it is a nutritional component... but there is no way it is a primary factor.



TKCARDANDCOIN said:
For me it is protien,uvb and then humidity.i have had my sulcata for almost 5 years and raised her from a hatchling.I kept her under uvb or sun,little protien and no humidity other than a weekly soak and have had great results.She has very little pyramiding if any at all. All of this goes along with a varied diet of greens and hay and a fresh bowl of water.
 

Millerlite

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is there anyway it can be part genetics? Maybe some pyramid easier then others...
 

-EJ

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I've always believed that any physiological trait is going to have a genetic influence. I don't think it is as important as heat and hydration.

Millerlite said:
is there anyway it can be part genetics? Maybe some pyramid easier then others...
 

Millerlite

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so you do think some can pyramid easier then others due to genetics, but it can also be controlled by hydration and Heat. I think the same thing. I always read about people and smooth shells with so many different ways of caring, It seems like some can go through the worst care and not pyramid at all, while some can go through great care and still pyramid.
 

TKCARDANDCOIN

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So what are you saying EJ, that you starve your tortoise from uvb to make a point.Thats like you never being exposed to natural sunlight!you would go crazy not to mention develop rickets.That is absurd that you raise torts without any benificial uvb.What kind of tortoise did you let suffer with no uvb.I'm sorry but that goes against everything I know.
 

Millerlite

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There are a few people that dont have UVB bulbs. They keep them indoors without them, just regular lights ( not just dark) and use supplement like d3 which reptiles produce using the UVB. The people i know that dont use UVB put there tortoises outside durning warm months, they just never use UVB bulbs, and it works for them.
 

-EJ

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You can't fault me for your ignorance...

TKCARDANDCOIN said:
So what are you saying EJ, that you starve your tortoise from uvb to make a point.Thats like you never being exposed to natural sunlight!you would go crazy not to mention develop rickets.That is absurd that you raise torts without any benificial uvb.What kind of tortoise did you let suffer with no uvb.I'm sorry but that goes against everything I know.
 

Meg90

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Ok, really?

First of all, why is everyone so pissy (for lack of a better word) here lately? I am getting tired of it. Every thread turns into a bickering match.

Are we adults? Or kids on myspace? I think that the level of maturity needs to go back up a few notches.

Secondly, using the "ten years ago" excuse is not feasible.

Ten years ago, they said that tortoises got all the water they needed from their food, and that the only reason HEALTHY tortoises urinated was because they had EXCESS water in them.

Now we know that they do it, because they control their own humidity to a point, through keeping their burrows and sleeping spots moist with urine.

Why would you deprive your tortoises of UVB? Even people feel better after being in natural sun. The rickets is a good example.

And just because you CAN doesn't mean that you should.

I can raise a toddler on hotdogs and koolaid, but does that mean that I should?
 

Millerlite

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I thought this was about Pyramiding.. Not Uvb... People dont use UVB lights, others do... lets try and keep on Pyramiding.
 

Crazy1

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OK, this was put in the Debatable Topic area, but lets keep the focus on Pyramiding as Millerlite pointed out. Lets debate the pros and cons but not point fingers or focus on any one individual. Lets keep it clean guys ok.
 

-EJ

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I don't see anyone getting 'pissy'? I do see some people get upset when someone disagrees with them.

The language is quite aggressive when a person says another is depriving an animal of UVB. This implies that UVB is necessary... it obviously is not. UVB probably has some benefits... it's definately not a necessity. Some folks believe the lack of UVB is a major factor in the cause of pyramiding... I'm not one of those people. I used to be a strong advocate of the UVB bulbs (hence the 10 year reference which is an observation). Ironicly... I met with resistance on that topic back then... now it is a necessity?... interesting.

It's not only a question of can... it's a matter of being able to do so with better results... Hatchlings that firm up quicker... and with a form that many keepers stride for.

In this hobby change and acceptance comes slowly because of the dogma that holds change back. There's a certain personality among tortoise keepers and that is they don't like to be wrong or think they are doing something not right... so everyone else must be wrong.

I have no problem being wrong. I could very well be wrong in my opinion... but I don't think so.

My advice to the new keeper... do your research... make your own decision. In the case of conflicting information... research the information more indepth and how the conflict is resolved to the point of at least making a decision your comfortable with.


Meg90 said:
Ok, really?

First of all, why is everyone so pissy (for lack of a better word) here lately? I am getting tired of it. Every thread turns into a bickering match.

Are we adults? Or kids on myspace? I think that the level of maturity needs to go back up a few notches.

Secondly, using the "ten years ago" excuse is not feasible.

Ten years ago, they said that tortoises got all the water they needed from their food, and that the only reason HEALTHY tortoises urinated was because they had EXCESS water in them.

Now we know that they do it, because they control their own humidity to a point, through keeping their burrows and sleeping spots moist with urine.

Why would you deprive your tortoises of UVB? Even people feel better after being in natural sun. The rickets is a good example.

And just because you CAN doesn't mean that you should.

I can raise a toddler on hotdogs and koolaid, but does that mean that I should?
 

TKCARDANDCOIN

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Thank you Meg90!!!I agree with You 100 percent! Thanks for your input,tom.
 

Madkins007

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In the best actual studies I have seen, both Sulcata and Red-foot pyramid when humidity is low and are smooth when it is high- regardless of the diet and other factors measured.

Now- I DO think that we will discover that there are different kinds of pyramiding with different causes- pyramids on a hard, well-shaped shell compared to those on a deformed, sunken shell, for example. The first being humidity/hydration with the other being poor diet, etc.

I ALSO think some species are more susceptible than others- Testudos seem to have fairly little trouble with this, and I would bet that most Sulcatas in the wild spend time in much more humid microclimates than we generally offer in captivity.

The critical time seems to be the fist few months to the first year. After that it seem like the job is to just maintain that internal hydration level.

TKCard describes keeping torts in naturalistic habitats with soaks. He does not say and may not know what the background and microhabitat humidities are in his pen. If he documented a low overall humidity, then I would see why he discounts it so readily.

As for me... I think the causes of pyramiding in tortoises are-
#1- Chronic dehydration, followed distantly by,
#2- Major dietary problems with calcium, phosphorous, vitamin D, and such- with protein only playing a very small roll.

I find no real evidence that UVB is a major part of the pyramiding issue. While vitamin D plays a major role in growth, the calcium cycle and skeletal development, too little vitamin D contributes to deformed bones and swayback- but not pyramids.

If anyone has a studies to the contrary, I would love to see them!

Articles citing humidity as a cause, and backed up by experiments:
- Fife, Richard. “Pyramiding in Tortoises” Reptiles Magazine (Archived at http://www.animalnetwork.com/reptiles/detail.aspx?aid=20864&cid=596&search=)
- http://www.petsparade.co.uk/articles/?a=78 (A synopsis of a longer article.)

So, should we get another thread going about UVB? Obviously it is another hot topic!
 

nrfitchett4

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Millerlite said:
is there anyway it can be part genetics? Maybe some pyramid easier then others...

I wouldn't think so because they say you don't see it in the wild.
 
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