Pyramiding

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KQ6AR

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Some types of tortoises are allowed high protein diets, some are better off with almost no protein in their diet.

The same can be said about humidity. Its different for different breeds.

That said, you really can't make a blanket statement about what might cause pyramiding in one species would be the same for another.

I do believe some species are more prone to pyramid than others.
 

Kristina

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Madkins007 said:
Now- I DO think that we will discover that there are different kinds of pyramiding with different causes- pyramids on a hard, well-shaped shell compared to those on a deformed, sunken shell, for example. The first being humidity/hydration with the other being poor diet, etc.

This is where I feel that "pyramiding" VS deformity/MBD comes in... Pyramiding, IMO, is caused mainly by a lack of humidity. Raised scutes on a sunken shell are deformities caused by a lack of calcuim in the diet brought on by too high oxalate content in the diet, improper Ca: P ratio, and/or too high protein content. The lack of calcium causes MBD, and the "sunken" appearance between the scutes.

Kristina
 

-EJ

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At first glance I thought you were on the right track...

Pyramiding is natural... does not occur often... and... is simple.

I comes down to the scutes... simple as that.

kyryah said:
Madkins007 said:
Now- I DO think that we will discover that there are different kinds of pyramiding with different causes- pyramids on a hard, well-shaped shell compared to those on a deformed, sunken shell, for example. The first being humidity/hydration with the other being poor diet, etc.

This is where I feel that "pyramiding" VS deformity/MBD comes in... Pyramiding, IMO, is caused mainly by a lack of humidity. Raised scutes on a sunken shell are deformities caused by a lack of calcuim in the diet brought on by too high oxalate content in the diet, improper Ca: P ratio, and/or too high protein content. The lack of calcium causes MBD, and the "sunken" appearance between the scutes.

Kristina
 

Kristina

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Just to clarify, you said at first glance... On what points do you disagree?

I personally know how you feel about the protein issue, but would like to hear it again, for others sake :)

Kristina
 

-EJ

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only one point... I don't think protein is a major factor in pyramiding.

kyryah said:
Just to clarify, you said at first glance... On what points do you disagree?

I personally know how you feel about the protein issue, but would like to hear it again, for others sake :)

Kristina
 

Kristina

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I am, to a point, open to that argument, for the simple fact that no-one has directly identified the exact percentage of protein that is harmful VS that which is acceptable.

I try to base my observations on diet on what is available to tortoises in their natural habitat. As I have said before, it is plain and simpe IMPOSSIBLE to exactly replicate conditions in the wild. I do know, however, that most of the food items available to arid tortoises in the wild are greatly deviod of nutrients, the exception being calcium.

I honestly feel that many people over-supplement. The nutrient quality of food items available for say, Sulcata and Leopard tortoises, is logically very low for most of the year. This may spike during certain periods, causing a variable, but can be counted on for the most part in my experience/research.

Nutrient qualities of replacement food items vary not only in respect to the areas/soil quality that they are grown in, but also in respect to the genetic strain that they originate from. It is something IMHO that needs to be taken into account.

Kristina
 

-EJ

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you do key onto one point... what is 'too much' protein.

How is this determined? What is the general number of 'too much' protein? How is this number derived?

Maybe an 'expert' can answer this.

kyryah said:
I am, to a point, open to that argument, for the simple fact that no-one has directly identified the exact percentage of protein that is harmful VS that which is acceptable.

I try to base my observations on diet on what is available to tortoises in their natural habitat. As I have said before, it is plain and simpe IMPOSSIBLE to exactly replicate conditions in the wild. I do know, however, that most of the food items available to arid tortoises in the wild are greatly deviod of nutrients, the exception being calcium.

I honestly feel that many people over-supplement. The nutrient quality of food items available for say, Sulcata and Leopard tortoises, is logically very low for most of the year. This may spike during certain periods, causing a variable, but can be counted on for the most part in my experience/research.

Nutrient qualities of replacement food items vary not only in respect to the areas/soil quality that they are grown in, but also in respect to the genetic strain that they originate from. It is something IMHO that needs to be taken into account.

Kristina
 

Kristina

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Who, however, is the ultimate expert??? I don't know him/her, and I do not think that there is one.

When it comes down to it, I think that tortoise care is based on approximating capitve conditions as close as possible to natural conditions, with, sadly, a bit of trial and error thrown in. There is no more a correct manual for tortiose care than there is for raising human children. They simply do not come with product tags.

I feel that what works, for now, works. I have my methods, and others have theirs. That does not stop me from sharing my experiences, but there may be a more correct method out there. If so, I will find it, in time, because I never allow my advancement to stop.

Kristina
 

nrfitchett4

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-EJ said:
you do key onto one point... what is 'too much' protein.

How is this determined? What is the general number of 'too much' protein? How is this number derived?

Maybe an 'expert' can answer this.

kyryah said:
I am, to a point, open to that argument, for the simple fact that no-one has directly identified the exact percentage of protein that is harmful VS that which is acceptable.

I try to base my observations on diet on what is available to tortoises in their natural habitat. As I have said before, it is plain and simpe IMPOSSIBLE to exactly replicate conditions in the wild. I do know, however, that most of the food items available to arid tortoises in the wild are greatly deviod of nutrients, the exception being calcium.

I honestly feel that many people over-supplement. The nutrient quality of food items available for say, Sulcata and Leopard tortoises, is logically very low for most of the year. This may spike during certain periods, causing a variable, but can be counted on for the most part in my experience/research.

Nutrient qualities of replacement food items vary not only in respect to the areas/soil quality that they are grown in, but also in respect to the genetic strain that they originate from. It is something IMHO that needs to be taken into account.

Kristina

I guess if your tort is crapping out lots of urates, then maybe too much protein?
 

Madkins007

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Sigh. Wouldn't it be wonderful if SOMEONE could give us a decent formula for daily or weekly 'doses' of calcium, phosphorous, protein, fat, fiber, vitamins A, Bs, C, D2, D3, and E, iron, oxalic acid, etc.?

I found a formula for reptile daily calorie needs (body wt. in kilograms to the 0.75 power, times 32 for the 'base' number. Increase or decrease by 25% based on activity like illness, growth, eggs, etc.), ratios of calcium (Ca: P of 2 to 4:1 ), and ratios of fat-soluble vitamins (A: D:E of 100:10:1)- but not any decently 'firm' numbers for the other stuff.
 

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nrfitchett4 said:
I guess if your tort is crapping out lots of urates, then maybe too much protein?

I don't think protein has anything to do with urates. Urates develop because the tortoise holds his urine.

Yvonne
 

egyptiandan

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I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne. :D

Nucleic acids (dietary protein) in the diet are degraded by nucleases to nucleotides. These nucleotides undergo further enzymatic hydrolysis to yield free purine and pyrimidine bases. Additional purine and pyrimidine bases are synthesized in the liver from amino acids. If these free bases are not reused by the body, they are further degraded and ultimately excreted. The pyrimidines are catabolized to the end products CO2 and NH3.
The end product of purine degradation is uric acid in tortoises.

From Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Douglas Mader

Danny
 
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Maggie Cummings

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egyptiandan said:
I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne. :D

Nucleic acids (dietary protein) in the diet are degraded by nucleases to nucleotides. These nucleotides undergo further enzymatic hydrolysis to yield free purine and pyrimidine bases. Additional purine and pyrimidine bases are synthesized in the liver from amino acids. If these free bases are not reused by the body, they are further degraded and ultimately excreted. The pyrimidines are catabolized to the end products CO2 and NH3.
The end product of purine degradation is uric acid in tortoises.

From Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Douglas Mader

Danny

Holy crap!!! Are you speaking in American???
 

Yvonne G

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egyptiandan said:
I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne. :D

Danny

(looking for a smilie face with its tongue sticking out going "Bra-a-a-ack"!!)

Yvonne
 

-EJ

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What Danny was trying to say that nitrogenous waste is the main byproduct of protein metabolism.



egyptiandan said:
I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne. :D

Nucleic acids (dietary protein) in the diet are degraded by nucleases to nucleotides. These nucleotides undergo further enzymatic hydrolysis to yield free purine and pyrimidine bases. Additional purine and pyrimidine bases are synthesized in the liver from amino acids. If these free bases are not reused by the body, they are further degraded and ultimately excreted. The pyrimidines are catabolized to the end products CO2 and NH3.
The end product of purine degradation is uric acid in tortoises.

From Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Douglas Mader

Danny
 

Redfootedboxturtles

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so how come my sulcatas will only have the white goo (urates) when I toss them a few cantalopes . I always thought it was becasue of the extra water.


*with out causing a bunch of side debate they only get cantalopes if there are to many for the foots to eat and theu have to be eatin in a day or two
 

-EJ

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check out the oxalic acid content of cantalope. Again, I'm sure there are other sources of insoluable salts.

Redfootedboxturtles said:
so how come my sulcatas will only have the white goo (urates) when I toss them a few cantalopes . I always thought it was becasue of the extra water.


*with out causing a bunch of side debate they only get cantalopes if there are to many for the foots to eat and theu have to be eatin in a day or two
 

nrfitchett4

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I haven't seen any urates yet in shelly, but with a diet of greens and spring mix, I wouldn't expect it. So far she has been resistant to the mazuri. I soak 2 pellets everyday, but so far, no dice.
 

Stephanie Logan

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http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/Gchilensiscare.htm
This link is to an article that posits the Chaco species of tortoise is "very prone" to pyramiding. The pictures actually look like my Taco. So that would support the genetic predisposition theory. Seems like the most important result of this thread is all of the advice on ways to mitigate or prevent pyramiding. Personally, I plan to try them all, so that what little shell growth Taco has left will be healthy growth.
 
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