Pyramiding

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dmmj

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feeding to much and growing to quickly was a common thought years ago but I posted this info in another thread. I recently read a report from a vet study on sulc. that humidity was the major factor in pyramiding. I am not telling anyone how to raise theirs or to change their behaviour just what I read, I found it very informative, and made quite a few good points. Also so far (aug 22) I have seen no study that says pyramiding is genetic, I am not saying that it is not, just saying I have seen no such reports. Anyways have a nice day.
 

Yvonne G

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Stephanie Logan said:
http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/Gchilensiscare.htm
Personally, I plan to try them all, so that what little shell growth Taco has left will be healthy growth.

Hi Stephanie: I'm pretty sure that the Chaco tortoise grows as big as our California desert tortoise. So your Taco has quite a bit more growing to do. So just increase the moisture in her habitat and try to get her outside as much as possible. The new growth should smooth out, but her pyramiding that she already has, won't go away.

Yvonne
 

Redfoot NERD

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I have an idea..
36_20_1.gif


Let's 1st try to keep the exceptions and extremes out of the picture.
ALL THINGS IN MODERATION
Let's consider that we don't feed "Herbivors" fruit and 'animal' protein.. and we don't feed "Omnivors" high silica grass exclusively.. O.K.?

Are we on the same page everybody? In other words.. we're feeding these different species what's "best" for them.

Plant eaters "need" more UVB-D3 [ which is why they bask ] because of the "different/lower" protein level in plants compared to animal protein eaters [ which 'don't' bask ] which basically get their D3 from their diet.

Based on observations from various long-term private breeders [ of 'all' species ] and Zoos.. many you know and have written articles on the subject of pyramiding. Most have come to the conclusion that "ALL" species require and seek out a "humid-hide" during the most crital time of their growth.. the first year. I'm sure this just thrills all of you.

I [ for what it's worth ] have also observed that "over-feeding" the 'right' food will cause a growth-gap between the scutes. Everything else being "in order". The scutes are not raised.. just gaps between.

Again I don't claim to be an expert in anything. I have worked with redfoots the most and longest.

I do agree.. in part.. with all of you - as long as we don't go off on "extreme and exception" trips we can learn from each other!

Terry K
 

Laura

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purine... p-urine.. i that why we call urine pee??!!!
i would think species has a lot to do withwhat causes it in different animals. There are several causes. one being Captivity! we humans cant duplicate and have no idea the real ideal everything for our captives.
Do your homework, listen, and do what works for you and is best for your torts.
 

Madkins007

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Laura said:
purine... p-urine.. i that why we call urine pee??!!!
i would think species has a lot to do withwhat causes it in different animals. There are several causes. one being Captivity! we humans cant duplicate and have no idea the real ideal everything for our captives.
Do your homework, listen, and do what works for you and is best for your torts.

Good points, but also remember that in actual studies with both Sucata and Red-foots, humidity has been demonstrated as being more important than any other single cause (the Sulcata study was trying to show that protein was the main issue, and it wasn't).

When you are doing homework on this topic, you'll get a lot of old, theoretical, and wrong info about pyramiding being because of this and that... but it would be smart to pay attention to the hard evidence that humidity, especially when the tortoise is young, is a major factor.
 

Redfoot NERD

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Wasted my time and fingers typing again! Thanks Mark.. you got it!!!

Would someone explain to me what Laura was saying please?

NERD
 

-EJ

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This is not always true... many of those who take an opposing point of view are either ridiculed... or... banned so you never here about other ideas unless you happen onto a list such as this. While this is a good list those that get more traffic are usually quoted more even though they could be wrong.

Whats even worse is when a vet adopts the dogma without the proper research.


Madkins007 said:
Good points, but also remember that in actual studies with both Sucata and Red-foots, humidity has been demonstrated as being more important than any other single cause (the Sulcata study was trying to show that protein was the main issue, and it wasn't).

When you are doing homework on this topic, you'll get a lot of old, theoretical, and wrong info about pyramiding being because of this and that... but it would be smart to pay attention to the hard evidence that humidity, especially when the tortoise is young, is a major factor.
 

Redfoot NERD

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Ed we can compare your redfoots raised in S. Cal. with mine raised in TN.. about as different in humidity as there is.. and see which is pyramided more or less?

No reason to consider the difference in what they have been fed. We know what yours have been fed.

You want to go first Ed.. or do you want me to?

Remember this is a friendly debate.. and your opportunity to "show and tell". No lip service.. thank you. We're just seeking facts.

I certainly agree Ed...... Vets [ Dr's ] are the only ones that can bury their mistakes!

Terry K
 

-EJ

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Well... there's a problem... I've been in NW Georgia for the last three years.

I've got a pair indoors... very dry... zero humidity... they are pyramided.

Those outdoors... fed exclusively mazuri... I think they are nice.

Bottom line... diet is a less factor than environmental factor.


Redfoot NERD said:
Ed we can compare your redfoots raised in S. Cal. with mine raised in TN.. about as different in humidity as there is.. and see which is pyramided more or less?

No reason to consider the difference in what they have been fed. We know what yours have been fed.

You want to go first Ed.. or do you want me to?

Remember this is a friendly debate.. and your opportunity to "show and tell". No lip service.. thank you. We're just seeking facts.

I certainly agree Ed...... Vets [ Dr's ] are the only ones that can bury their mistakes!

Terry K
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Ed... do you have the pair inside strictly as an experiment/comparison? I have always felt that pyramiding was an environmental thing with humidity being the biggest part of that.
 

Yvonne G

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Glad to see you back, Ed. I've missed arguing with you! :cool:

Yvonne
 

-EJ

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The pair of RFs I have are strictly on aspen bedding at 80F. It is an experiment. There is no doubt that it is environmental.

maggie3fan said:
Ed... do you have the pair inside strictly as an experiment/comparison? I have always felt that pyramiding was an environmental thing with humidity being the biggest part of that.
 

gummybearpoop

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I live in Arizona and I have kept leopards, russians, redfoots, sri lankan stars, and radiateds. I work with aldabras and galapagos at a local zoo.

My redfoots started to pyramid a little when I had the humidity low. I used a humid hide, but it seemed like it was still too dry in Arizona. It took a lot of effort and time to get the right humidity at the place I was living at the time. In Arizona, it is very dry which is why I sold my redfoots to someone who lives in a more humid environment.

I have also kept sri lankan stars, which are generally known for pyramiding regardless of humidity/diet. I used a humid hide but the sri lankan stars would still pyramid but at a lesser degree.

I think climate (temperature and humidity) have a lot to do with pyramiding.

I don't really use UVB lights. I don't think hatchlings really need too much light because in nature, baby tortoises are hard to find because they are always hiding. I take my tortoises outside in the sun with shade to hide from the sun as well.

I am just stating what I do, what I believe, what I have observed, and what works for me in arizona.
 

-EJ

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If you pick up Holger Vetters book on SA tortoises you will see that the RFs come from a relatively dry climate throughout their range. The southern forms actually come from areas not too different than AZ except the temperatures do not get as high. On of the coauthors lives in the Paraguayan Chaco... where RFs occur.
 

Redfoot NERD

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Me too 'gummy' --- there have been almost drought conditions here in '07 and '08.. and my redfoots didn't really like it. Breeding/egg production down! Egg production down almost 40%.. fertility DOWN at least 60%... they quit breeding! The condition of their carapaces' changed also!

Terry K

-EJ said:
Well... there's a problem... I've been in NW Georgia for the last three years.

I've got a pair indoors... very dry... zero humidity... they are pyramided.

Those outdoors... fed exclusively mazuri... I think they are nice.

Bottom line... diet is a less factor than environmental factor.




Redfoot NERD said:
Ed we can compare your redfoots raised in S. Cal. with mine raised in TN.. about as different in humidity as there is.. and see which is pyramided more or less?

No reason to consider the difference in what they have been fed. We know what yours have been fed.

You want to go first Ed.. or do you want me to?

Remember this is a friendly debate.. and your opportunity to "show and tell". No lip service.. thank you. We're just seeking facts.

I certainly agree Ed...... Vets [ Dr's ] are the only ones that can bury their mistakes!

Terry K

The impact of the dry environment was already felt before you left S. Cal. and you know it Ed! The most important growth period is the first 2 years...

Terry
 

-EJ

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An important point to remember that I think has been mentioned is not the general climate as it is perceived because of the location but of the microclimate that the animal chooses.
 

Redfoot NERD

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Sure.. the "Chaco-valley" is the driest.......... hardly "thru-out their range"!

Something doesn't fit here.. who ya gonna believe?

What about 'North' of the Amazon river [ where "most" of our "PET" redfoots come from ]... or around the Bahia region of Brazil [ the most humid area in the CONTINENT where our "PET" cherryheads come from ]

http://www.wunderground.com/global/Region/SA/2xHumidity.html

Terry K

-EJ said:
An important point to remember that I think has been mentioned is not the general climate as it is perceived because of the location but of the microclimate that the animal chooses.

And they either choose or create a humid "hide".. ask Richard Fife about that one.. I did!

Terry K
 

gummybearpoop

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I read the south american tortoises book...great book suggested by you.

It is dry and really hot here, and we get over 100 days of 100 degree heat each year. There are people who breed redfoots here but it takes lots of time, effort, and money.

My redfoot tortoises' eyes eyes were always really watery. Their skin was light grey, which according to the south american tortoises book-means the tortoises are too dry. Unless I built some kind of greenhouse, I didn't want to subject my redfoots to 110 degree heat with 5-10% humidity.

I provided humid hides and various micro climates...but at my old apartment I couldnt keep the relative humidity up. In Phoenix, we get 10% humidity if that. Monsoon season we get some humidity but it doesnt last long.

The south american tortoise book says some redfoots are from dry regions but regions that still have 40-60% humidity. Dry doesn't necessarily mean not humid....sometimes its lack of water. The redfoots in those dry regions tend to be found in abandoned burrows where the humidity is significantly higher

Radiated and spider tortoises are from very dry regions but the humidity is still 50-90% in the region of madagascar they are from.

Many dry region tortoises that burrow seem to be from dry regions where humidity is low (ie, desert tortoise, sulcatas, russians, etc.).

Radiateds, Spiders, Stars, Galapagos, Aldabras etc are from dry regions but the humidity is moderate and have no need to make burrows, but many of these occur on islands or near the coast where it is humid but do experience very dry seasons.

Gotta love tortoise adaptation.

I wish galapagos tortoises could make a huge burrow so they could make me a new place to live! ha

egyptiandan said:
I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne. :D

Nucleic acids (dietary protein) in the diet are degraded by nucleases to nucleotides. These nucleotides undergo further enzymatic hydrolysis to yield free purine and pyrimidine bases. Additional purine and pyrimidine bases are synthesized in the liver from amino acids. If these free bases are not reused by the body, they are further degraded and ultimately excreted. The pyrimidines are catabolized to the end products CO2 and NH3.
The end product of purine degradation is uric acid in tortoises.

From Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Douglas Mader

Danny


Crazy....haha. I want to tell my girlfriend this information so she would think I just got my PHD
 

-EJ

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I believe the people who have been in or who live in the areas that these animals inhabit.

I don't know where the 'chaco-valley' is but the SA Chaco is basically prarie.

If you believe that north of the Amazon is all tropical rain forest... you haven't done the research you should.

Have you payed attention to the photos of the farms in the Bahia region?

You bring about another point. The RF is like the Sulcata in that it is a very adaptable animal... they don't NEED humidity in general. A humid hide is more than enough.

Every tortoise species will choose to seek out a humid hide given the opportunity... been saying this for well over 30 years. When first suggested I ran into the same polarized opposition.

Redfoot NERD said:
Sure.. the "Chaco-valley" is the driest.......... hardly "thru-out their range"!

Something doesn't fit here.. who ya gonna believe?

What about 'North' of the Amazon river [ where "most" of our "PET" redfoots come from ]... or around the Bahia region of Brazil [ the most humid area in the CONTINENT where our "PET" cherryheads come from ]

http://www.wunderground.com/global/Region/SA/2xHumidity.html

Terry K

-EJ said:
An important point to remember that I think has been mentioned is not the general climate as it is perceived because of the location but of the microclimate that the animal chooses.

And they either choose or create a humid "hide".. ask Richard Fife about that one.. I did!

Terry K



I got such a giggle out of this...

Danny... I'm an aircraft mechanic... can you put this into words or an idea that I might actually understand??????


egyptiandan said:
I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne. :D

Nucleic acids (dietary protein) in the diet are degraded by nucleases to nucleotides. These nucleotides undergo further enzymatic hydrolysis to yield free purine and pyrimidine bases. Additional purine and pyrimidine bases are synthesized in the liver from amino acids. If these free bases are not reused by the body, they are further degraded and ultimately excreted. The pyrimidines are catabolized to the end products CO2 and NH3.
The end product of purine degradation is uric acid in tortoises.

From Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Douglas Mader

Danny


Crazy....haha. I want to tell my girlfriend this information so she would think I just got my PHD
[/quote]
 

Madkins007

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Speaking of the Vinkes, Red-foots, and the Chaco area of South America, there are two good articles you can download-
- Turtle and tortoise fauna of the central Chaco of Paraguay, (http://www.chelidae.com/pdf/vinke2001.pdf) and
- An Unusual Survival Strategy of the Red-Footed Tortoise Geochelone carbonaria in the Chaco Boreal of Paraguay (which I cannot seem to find online anymore)

According to Vinke, the Gran Chaco is a big area- 800,000 km2. Its climate is warm but drops to freezing in the winter, although frost is rare and it does not snow. Big temp fluctuations in the day, lots of rain in some months and almost none in others, and like the American prairies, it can deluge in one area while being bone dry just miles away. The area includes near desert, grasslands, palm savannahs, thorn forest, marshes, sub-tropical rain forest.

Here is a quote from the first article:
"The Red-footed Tortoise mainly inhabits dry forests in Paraguay. It also lives in smaller embedded savannas. In all the preferred biotopes appear to be slightly damper and therefore a little greener than those of Geochelone chilensis, the forests are higher and less thorny. These tortoises like to be near temporary riverbeds or at places with a lower level where rainwater accumulates over a long period of time."

Like we've said in many places in many ways- microhabitats rule!
 
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