Sulcata not growing?

Gary20

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Hello all! I have had my Sulcata for about 4 years and he has not grown. I did thorough research before purchasing my tortoise and I am educated on tortoise care and husbandry.
Housing:
I have an under the bed storage bin that I keep him in. I use paper towels as substrate as per tortoise veterinarian recommendation. I change them weekly. The bin also has a food dish, water dish, half log hide and a small terra cotta pot. I through he wasn't getting enough sunlight so I put my dog's old wrought-iron playpen outside on the lawn and sunk it about 6 inches. I added all the décor from the bin to the playpen.
Diet:
I was feeding him one flower a day 5 times a week until about a month ago. Once I moved him into the playpen, I started feeding him the flower, leaves, a handful of spinach or spring mix. Once in a while I feed him a romaine lettuce leaf/branch in addition to to the food stated above. He also grazes on the grass in the playpen.
Questions:
  1. Is my tortoise getting enough food? Balanced diet?
  2. Why isn't my tortoise growing?
 

Gillian M

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Posting pics would be an idea.

And a warm welcome to the forum :tort:
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Gary:

First of all, unless a vet has tortoises himself, he really doesn't know the right way to keep and feed them. Your baby tortoise should have had a moist substrate, that simulates the earth cave he would have been living in in the wild. Warm and moist. These are the things that help a tortoise grow. He also needs the right food, and plenty of it, exercise and UVB either from the sun or from an expensive UVB light.

I don't think you've been feeding him enough. I give my babies a great big pile of food. If, at the end of the day, it's all gone, cleaned up, no scraps, then I know I didn't give them enough. I increase the amount until they've left some at the end of the day. I want my babies to come out any time throughout the day and find food.

Can we see a picture of your baby's habitat and lights?
 

Tom

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Hello and welcome Gary. You and your tortoise will be so glad you found us.

I understand that you spent time researching and trying to learn, but unfortunately you found and studied the wrong info from the wrong sources. You are not alone. This happens to lots of people. Most of the info "out there" is not from people who have actually been keeping and raising these tortoises for a long time. For almost two decades the care info for this species has been based on INCORRECT speculation and assumptions about their lives in the wild. In actuality, sulcatas are extremely endangered in the wild and they have been studied very little. They are NOT a desert species, and do not benefit from hot dry conditions. They hatch during the African monsoon season. It is hot, very humid, and there are puddles and marshes every where. In fact they spend most of their lives underground away from temperature extremes. The following info is based on more than two decades of working with sulcatas and hatching, starting and raising hundreds of them, as well as a lifetime of chelonian study, tortoise conference attendance, conversation with people form sulcata territory in Africa and conversation with many many other tortoise keepers and breeders on the subject.

Answers to your questions:
1. No. I'm afraid not. Sulcatas are grass eaters. Flowers should only be a small percentage of the diet and not a daily food item. Spring mix is okay but, lacks fiber and calcium. Spinach is okay once in a while, but its high in oxalates which bind with calcium in the blood stream and make it unavailable to the tortoise's body. Your baby needs to eat daily. A lot. In the past people mistakenly believed that "fast" growth was bad and protein caused pyramiding. Wrong on both counts, and I will happily demonstrate this to you. Here are suggestions for what you should be feeding your tortoise:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
When you feed and house them correctly, you can let them eat as much as they want every day. This is what they would do in the wild.

2. I don't intend this to be harsh or mean, but I need to answer your question truthfully and frankly so that you can fix the problem. Your tortoise is not growing because you have been housing, feeding and caring for it incorrectly. I'm sorry. I know no one wants to hear that, but it needs to be said, so you can learn how to do it correctly. Here is how to do it right:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/

These might also shed some light and hopefully be a little entertaining and interesting too.

Not your issue, but related to the topic: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/


Hope this helps and please come back with all your questions. Don't just take my word for these things. Make me convince you and demonstrate the truth of what I've learned.
 

Gary20

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Thanks for responding! I will definetly check out those links. By the way, I live in Miami, FL and humidity is usually between 60%-80% (usually closer to 75%) and temperature in the high 70s - low 90s. Since there is a lot of humidity, warm teperatures, and lots of sunshine, I keep the tortoise outside. I'm not sure if I made this clear but now that I'm keeping the tortoise outside in the playpen on the grass, he pretty much on his own. I still provide food, water, and shelter; he like to burrow into the dirt at night to go to sleep. I'm still not sure what I'm doing right (sunlight exposure) and what I'm doing wrong(unbalanced diet, dry substrate [in bin]). What is the most urgent thing I'm doing wrong right now?
 

cmacusa3

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Can you post a pic of the little guy? I would like to see his size for a 4 year old.
 

Tom

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I don't like to house them outside full time until they are around 10". Being outside full time, even in conditions that seem good, makes them grow very slowly when they are little. Something about the stability or lack of extremes indoors allows them to thrive more. I like them to have limited outside time every day, based on their size, but not all day every day and night.

What are the overnight lows there?
 

Tom

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10"? Fascinating. I had no idea. What age does that typically correspond to? Do you do the same with leopards?
For my sulcatas that is about 14-18 months. SA leopards took around 2 years to reach that size. They all slow way down when I move them outside though.
 

Razan

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Thanks for responding! I will definetly check out those links. By the way, I live in Miami, FL and humidity is usually between 60%-80% (usually closer to 75%) and temperature in the high 70s - low 90s. Since there is a lot of humidity, warm teperatures, and lots of sunshine, I keep the tortoise outside. I'm not sure if I made this clear but now that I'm keeping the tortoise outside in the playpen on the grass, he pretty much on his own. I still provide food, water, and shelter; he like to burrow into the dirt at night to go to sleep. I'm still not sure what I'm doing right (sunlight exposure) and what I'm doing wrong(unbalanced diet, dry substrate [in bin]). What is the most urgent thing I'm doing wrong right now?

Welcome to the forum. You found the right place to learn how to make your tortoise happy and healthy. I will let the more knowledgeable give advise. This forum has been such a help for many of us and now for you too. Welcome tortoise heaven.
 

Gary20

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The low for tonight is 76, which is pretty average. This morning when I checked on him, I touched the little mini burrow he slept in and it's was warm to the touch so he is staying warm at night. I'm not necessarily worried if he grows slowly but I want to make sure he's growing.
 

Gary20

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image.jpg
This is him in 2012


image.jpg
This is him in September 2014


image.jpg
This is the playpen I keep him in.
 
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Yvonne G

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If this were my tortoise (this is totally MY opinion, and what I would do), I would start all over from the beginning, and treat the tortoise as if he were a brand new baby. I'd set him up indoors in either a closed chamber like what Tom suggests, or in a baby habitat the way I normally do it with moist substrate and covered with foil, lights and all. I'd have a UVB light over the habitat and I'd feed him chopped up leaves, weeds and grasses. I'd soak him daily for about 15 minutes. On nice days I'd take his indoor habitat outside and place it in partial sun/shade. But I'd treat him like a brand, new baby and start all over with him.
 

Gary20

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Thanks for your input. I would prefer to keep the him outside but I am willing to make this chamber. Is there any way I can keep him outside? If I decide to keep him outside, will he grow?
 

Gary20

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image.jpg
Thinking of something like this. Thoughts?
 
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Tom

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Your outdoor enclosure are s great for a couple hours a day during warm weather, but I would not leave a small one like that outside full time. Too difficult to maintain the correct temperatures and conditions. They tend to not grow well when kept outside too much when they are small. I don't move mine outside full time until they are around 8-10". I maintain an indoor enclosure with the right temperatures and conditions and then I have a large outdoor enclosure for fair weather. I put hatchlings outside for an hour a day, a few times a week, weather permitting. As they gain size I leave the out longer and longer.

I would not leave this little guy outside more than a couple hours. I do not recommend housing him outside full time at this size.
 
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Tom

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I just looked up your weather. Your night temps will be dropping into the low 70 some nights in your 10 day forecast. That is too cold for a small one outside in the rain and humidity.

All these factors are part of why he is so small.
 

Razan

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Thank you for posting pictures and for your detailed plan for an outdoor area. Seeing the specifics makes communication much more clear. Hope you can follow the advice others are providing. Isn't this the greatest place for tortoise answers ! ? ! When your tortoise is bigger I bet you will have great outdoor place for him.
 

Gary20

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Thanks everyone! Where can I find plans for one of these chambers? How expensive are they to build?
 

Tom

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Thanks everyone! Where can I find plans for one of these chambers? How expensive are they to build?

I can't do a link from this device right now, but do a forum search for "Closed Chambers".
 
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