Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

All the debate aside, the logical part of my brain tells me mixing sand into a substrate you need to keep partly damp to maintain humidity(this is more referring to indoor set ups) would make sand want to stick absolutely everywhere, including the nooks and crannies where their skin is softer, I doubt that feels particularly pleasant for them. A grain of sand in the eye must feel more irritating than a little bit of soil..

Out in the wild they’ll encounter it, but have the choice to move on and not be exposed to it 24/7 with no means to avoid it.

Thats just my hunch, the impaction side of it is just an added factor to me regardless of why that happens to some captive kept tortoises and not others. It’s enough for me to not want to purposely add to substrate, and to discourage others from doing so too.

I guess that’s where my input ends, it’s not much, but something🥲

I respect people’s interest in the more in depth details though🙂

 

[S2G]

All the debate aside, the logical part of my brain tells me mixing sand into a substrate you need to keep partly damp to maintain humidity(this is more referring to indoor set ups) would make sand want to stick absolutely everywhere, including the nooks and crannies where their skin is softer, I doubt that feels particularly pleasant for them. A grain of sand in the eye must feel more irritating than a little bit of soil..

Out in the wild they’ll encounter it, but have the choice to move on and not be exposed to it 24/7 with no means to avoid it.

Thats just my hunch, the impaction side of it is just an added factor to me regardless of why that happens to some captive kept tortoises and not others. It’s enough for me to not want to purposely add to substrate, and to discourage others from doing so too.

I guess that’s where my input ends, it’s not much, but something🥲

I respect people’s interest in the more in depth details though🙂

Theyre literally designed for it. It does not bother them one bit.

My issue isnt sand. Sand is being be used as an escape goat for poor husbandry that will cause issues regardless. Fix the husbandry & its a non issue all together. If it was an issue thered be evidence across the board.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Theyre literally designed for it. It does not bother them one bit.

My issue isnt sand. Sand is being be used as an escape goat for poor husbandry that will cause issues regardless. Fix the husbandry & its a non issue all together. If it was an issue thered be evidence across the board.

I appreciate that opinion, you could very well be correct. But again in the wild, they still don’t have to be exposed to it 24/7 with no means to avoid it.

I somewhat agree with the second part of your statement, but again, when using a platform to advise on animal care, you have to cater for the enormous spectrum that is the tortoise keeping community, if you’re going to advise to the broadest range possible, for the sake of as many tortoises well beings as possible, we need to eliminate things that are potential risks in those with less than perfect husbandry😣
There’s never going to be a place in time where every single tortoise owner truly understands every aspect of care in preventing the risks that comes with the sand, it’s never going to be wise to advocate for it in captive care.

We can strive to educate the best possible care from housing, to diet to supplements, the lot, but this world is brutal when it comes to the pet trade, it’s up to well educated and experienced folks, to advise the least risky ways possible to keep a tortoise, for the broadest range of owners when using a platform the entire world has access to. Again, that is just my opinion🙂

 

[Tom]

Theyre literally designed for it. It does not bother them one bit.

No they are not, and unless you think impaction, death, eye infection, and skin irritation is not a "bother" you are wrong.

My issue isnt sand. Sand is being be used as an escape goat for poor husbandry that will cause issues regardless. Fix the husbandry & its a non issue all together. If it was an issue thered be evidence across the board.

This issue is 100% sand. Without sand, there is no sand impaction. You don't know what other mitigating factors are at work here. No one does. Your guessing and assumptions is not helping tortoises.

I'll just keep repeating this over and over as long as you want. I guarantee you will quit before I do.

 

[Tom]

Im a little confused over this reply?☹️

You are confused because you are good natured and don't have bad intentions. His post is called trolling. Don't feed the trolls.

The two guys who have already dumped a bunch of sand into their enclosures NEED it to be okay, because otherwise, they'd have to admit they made a mistake and did something that could be detrimental to their animals. They are so invested in the concept that they can't understand basic logic and they wish to deny reality.

 

[TammyJ]

Here I come again. I have a question and a thought. Are you still there, Dana the Sandman? Here is my question: at what point does sand become stones? And here is my thought: sand collects in the gut, and maybe even lining it, giving it a rough instead of a normal smooth surface. Then the tortoise swallows stones or gravel, and the rough sandy surface of the gut prevents the gravel and stones from moving along and out, so then you have major impaction -all started by... well, SAND.

 

[TammyJ]

Here I come again. I have a question and a thought. Are you still there, Dana the Sandman? Here is my question: at what point does sand become stones? And here is my thought: sand collects in the gut, and maybe even lining it, giving it a rough instead of a normal smooth surface. Then the tortoise swallows stones or gravel, and the rough sandy surface of the gut prevents the gravel and stones from moving along and out, so then you have major impaction -all started by... well, SAND.

Don't hold your breath, Tammy!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

You are confused because you are good natured and don't have bad intentions. His post is called trolling. Don't feed the trolls.

The two guys who have already dumped a bunch of sand into their enclosures NEED it to be okay, because otherwise, they'd have to admit they made a mistake and did something that could be detrimental to their animals. They are so invested in the concept that they can't understand basic logic and they wish to deny reality.

Lol I could kind of see what he was going for.. but definitely confused on how it added to the discussion.. ah well😬

 

[S2G]

No they are not, and unless you think impaction, death, eye infection, and skin irritation is not a "bother" you are wrong.


This issue is 100% sand. Without sand, there is no sand impaction. You don't know what other mitigating factors are at work here. No one does. Your guessing and assumptions is not helping tortoises.

I'll just keep repeating this over and over as long as you want. I guarantee you will quit before I do.

Well Im younger than you so game on father time 😁. Youre persistant I'll give you that. Still wrong though. Theyre designed perfectly for their environment. Sandy soil doesnt phase a russian or similar one dang bit. Thats crazy talk. Theyre perfectly evolved for that environment. Saying any different is assinine.

Lets see those xrays, those eye irrations, etc etc. If its so prevelant then you should have no problem. Phone all those fancy vet friends. I'll send you a seed mix for your grow house or sandy pen soil.

All the impactions so far are gravel.

You totally bypassed the tesudo sand study deal that was listed a page or so ago to along with the gopher tortoise deal. If you were right they wouldnt live there or theyd be extinct.

 

[S2G]

You are confused because you are good natured and don't have bad intentions. His post is called trolling. Don't feed the trolls.

The two guys who have already dumped a bunch of sand into their enclosures NEED it to be okay, because otherwise, they'd have to admit they made a mistake and did something that could be detrimental to their animals. They are so invested in the concept that they can't understand basic logic and they wish to deny reality.

News flash. Im ok with admitting im wrong! Im saying in the amount Chris stated & in that environment its a non issue.

Youre saying its wrong, but you cant back up your statement aside from because i said so.

Furthermore. Who has the better body of work? Gardenstate or you? Who here has bought one of his poor hatchlings so impacted & eyes swolen shut from eye irratation they can hardly function?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I think, and I could be wrong, that Tom hasn’t necessarily said it’s wrong Chris is housing his on it, more that it’s not right/responsible to encourage the community as a whole to do so.. idk that’s what I’ve taken from it, I haven’t seen anyone deny that some tortoises can can be housed on it and appear to suffer no ill effects.

With the wild guys, again they don’t have to necessarily be exposed to it 24/7 year round, maybe thats one of many reasons why we don’t see it effecting them, but admittedly I could be way off🤷‍♀️

I did think however, it had been acknowledged that there’s been multiple cases where sand has been an issue, some that have been shared here, the general response to those has been ‘person was probably doing x, y and z wrong therefore sand became an issue’, which again circles me back round to the why we shouldn’t be recommending purposely mixing sand into substrates, when there’s risk free ways to achieve the benefits I’ve seen listed for using it in the first place..

This could probably keep going round let’s face😂it’s still made for an interesting read though!

 

[mark1]

You are confused because you are good natured and don't have bad intentions. His post is called trolling. Don't feed the trolls.

tom, you calling me a troll?? i got r.p.manni that have been here 30yrs??? i have eastern box turtle been here 25yr, my wood turtles were all bought as hatchlings 21yrs ago....... my blandings still had their egg tooths when i got them 8 and10yrs ago....... i've hatched and raised box turtles, wood turtles and manni here to adulthood, everything here lives outside 24/7/365 from -20F to 104F, with 60-70F temp fluctuations within 24 hours..... i don't think what i do works, i know it works.... your experience, i got some i assure you you do not, it's obvious to me........ i've raised gulf coast box turtles, cuora ambo, cuora flavo, platemys, podocnemis, redfoot , elongated, graptemy's, chelydra, rp manni, rpp, apalone........by your definition soil is sand??? if you can't keep your animals on natural soil, your doing something wrong......... this is not even a fraction of the stuff your wrong on....... i'm not a chris fan for my own reasons, but the guy is good at raising turtles and tortoise , that is obvious, i actually agree with him more than you........... is disagreeing with you "trolling"??? i think calling soil sand is trolling......

 

[mark1]

at what point does sand become stones?

sand becomes dirt, it started as stones....... it doesn't sit in the gut, it passes through like everything else......

 

[mark1]

All the debate aside, the logical part of my brain tells me mixing sand into a substrate you need to keep partly damp to maintain humidity(this is more referring to indoor set ups) would make sand want to stick absolutely everywhere, including the nooks and crannies where their skin is softer, I doubt that feels particularly pleasant for them. A grain of sand in the eye must feel more irritating than a little bit of soil..

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

tom, you calling me a troll?? i got r.p.manni that have been here 30yrs??? i have eastern box turtle been here 25yr, my wood turtles were all bought as hatchlings 21yrs ago....... my blandings still had their egg tooths when i got them 8 and10yrs ago....... i've hatched and raised box turtles, wood turtles and manni here to adulthood, everything here lives outside 24/7/365 from -20F to 104F, with 60-70F temp fluctuations within 24 hours..... i don't think what i do works, i know it works.... your experience, i got some i assure you you do not, it's obvious to me........ i've raised gulf coast box turtles, cuora ambo, cuora flavo, platemys, podocnemis, redfoot , elongated, graptemy's, chelydra, rp manni, rpp, apalone........by your definition soil is sand??? if you can't keep your animals on natural soil, your doing something wrong......... this is not even a fraction of the stuff your wrong on....... i'm not a chris fan for my own reasons, but the guy is good at raising turtles and tortoise , that is obvious, i actually agree with him more than you........... is disagreeing with you "trolling"??? i think calling soil sand is trolling......

I think in Toms defence to this bit, you can see how your response he was referring to could appear a bit troll like🥲 I certainly didn’t take it to heart nor would I take anything to heart here, but it threw me because it didn’t add to the discussion imo.

I’ve said to a few folks on here before now with lots of experience like you guys, that just because your methods have worked for you, doesn’t ever mean there aren’t more up to date/better or more efficient ways of doing things, no matter how much experience I may gain, it would never close my mind to potentially learning new beneficial ways of doing things🙂

this is a wild tortoise no? We’re talking about captive care, I’ve already acknowledged they absolutely encounter it in the wild, but they have the ability to move on and not remain on/in it 24/7 year round, I doubt it causes them the discomfort I’ve mentioned in the wild because of numerous factors no one is dead certain on, but in captivity, in a substrate that needs to be kept damp inside for humidity, I see it being nothing but a nuisance for the tortoise, for no added benefits that can’t be achieved in other safer ways, across the spectrum of keepers.

sand becomes dirt, it started as stones....... it doesn't sit in the gut, it passes through like everything else......

I don’t see sand and soil as the same thing personally, to me it’s micro gravel lol, I can’t imagine it breaking down/passing through easier than a safer coir alternative.. I’m not saying it can’t pass altogether, but do you not see the potential for build up when looking at keeping as a whole picture? It’s ok if you don’t, I’m just genuinely curious, we may always agree to disagree here, I don’t think that makes you a troll🙂