Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Gatekeeping for new owners is great, to be honest. You feel like your head is going to pop off after checking out just the "Heating and Lightning" section. When I started, I didn't want many options, I just wanted not to screw the things up

And I should note that Chris in his care sheets warns about impaction risk. He says that he has never seen anything like this with his tortoises but as it's being told to happen with others, it's up to a keeper to take the risk.

 

[Tom]

Tom, "enormous outdoor enclosures" and plenty of hydration sounds fine. Pretty much like natural habitat but with plenty of water and no predators. What type of sandy soil was it? At least approximate location would be great - there are geological maps with soils composition. I doubt someone brought a truck of playsand just for the tortoises, so it should be a dangerous kind of "plain yard dirt".

This happens in back yards here in southern CA.

 

[wellington]

Again your stating your feelings based on what you've seen as FACTS. Surely you understand that. Im just talking about my experiences & what ive read as part of a discussion. I personally think theres a bigger issue than just sand and thats just your chosen boogeyman.

Thats my conclusion from reading all those studies & studying how they are in the wild. If you have some other material i can read ill read that to.

You took my last paragraph out of context to fit your narrative. He stated his base mix & said he likes to add sand. He didnt say you have to. If it makes you twitchy leave it out. Not a hard concept to grasp.

I prefer the idea of giving people all the info to make their own decisions. Not gatekeeping & talking down to them.

I'm.just responding to your last paragraph. If you ever answered as many threads as Tom, Yvonne, myself, you would realize how important it is in keeping advice as simple as possible. Now, I do like giving options. Like when I started recommending the greenhouses for closed chamber. Not everyone can spend over 300 for a one time enclosure that will last only a couple years if lucky.
But I don't think it's responsible to recommend anything that could be dangerous.
Sometimes even the simplest easy answer is not understood. Now to add sand and try to explain how to use it, but don't do this, but do that, no not that sand, but this kind of sand, yada yada yada,
then going into the possible dangers of it, yikes, I and the rest of us don't have time for all that.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I'm.just responding to your last paragraph. If you ever answered as many threads as Tom, Yvonne, myself, you would realize how important it is in keeping advice as simple as possible. Now, I do like giving options. Like when I started recommending the greenhouses for closed chamber. Not everyone can spend over 300 for a one time enclosure that will last only a couple years if lucky.
But I don't think it's responsible to recommend anything that could be dangerous.
Sometimes even the simplest easy answer is not understood. Now to add sand and try to explain how to use it, but don't do this, but do that, no not that sand, but this kind of sand, yada yada yada,
then going into the possible dangers of it, yikes, I and the rest of us don't have time for all that.

Summed up my views pretty well here! Options are fine, we’re providing options that eliminate any unnecessary risks, we’re doing no harm in not recommending sand, that’s literally all that matters here🙂we’re keeping a broader range of captive kept tortoises safer❤️

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Even if we worked under the assumption everything you say is correct @S2G unfortunately it still makes zero sense to add sand as recommended safe addition across the board, it could simply do more harm than good, something none of us here want, hopefully you can understand that❤️

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Gatekeeping for new owners is great, to be honest. You feel like your head is going to pop off after checking out just the "Heating and Lightning" section. When I started, I didn't want many options, I just wanted not to screw the things up

And I should note that Chris in his care sheets warns about impaction risk. He says that he has never seen anything like this with his tortoises but as it's being told to happen with others, it's up to a keeper to take the risk.

I absolutely second this notion!

 

[Anastasia 22]

You feel like your head is going to pop off after checking out just the "Heating and Lightning" section.
I got my first tortoise when I was 3yo. Noone really considered her/him as a pet. The poor thing was given to me as a live toy. She/he never had a proper lighting/ heating, no proper diet, no soaking. Our tortoise was never sick, her shell was always beautiful. She/he was with us for 18 years and then we rehomed our tort. As far as I know she/he is still alive and still roams the floors... She is about 50-55yo now.

 

[Tom]

Again your stating your feelings based on what you've seen as FACTS.

No. I'm not talking about my feelings. I am talking about facts. I have literally laid eyes on multiple dead tortoises, seen necropsy reports, talked to vets, witnessed sand impaction surgeries. These are facts, not feelings. Its not my feeling that sand caused these impactions, it is a fact. You are talking about something you have not seen and have no experience with. That's great. I'm glad you haven't had to deal first hand with a sand impaction case in one of your animals. Its a terrible thing. But it makes no logical sense for you to deny that other people have had problems, or to invent reasons in your own head about why they had a problem and you have not.

Im just talking about my experiences & what ive read as part of a discussion. I personally think theres a bigger issue than just sand and thats just your chosen boogeyman.

No. You are just talking about your lack of experience with sand impaction. Its like talking to someone who has personally gone through chemo and radiation therapy for cancer, and knows several other people who have, and you are standing there telling them they are wrong, and their cancer was caused by such and such, and that you and other people you know haven't had cancer, so its obviously happening because of something they've done.

There are lots of "issues" with tortoise keeping. People adding sand is one of them. Does it really matter which problem is bigger than the other? Let's do what we can to eliminate as many of the problems as we can. Let's educate people about hydration, humidity for small growing tortoises, the right bulbs to use, enclosure sizes, and what substrates are safest to use.

A boogeyman is a fictional character intended to scare children into behaving. Sand impaction is a real problem, not an invention in my mind or a "feeling" that I have had.

Thats my conclusion from reading all those studies & studying how they are in the wild. If you have some other material i can read ill read that to.

Your back yard is not the wild. It cannot ever be. I've already explained examples of how this line of thinking leads to catastrophic mistakes that kill tortoises. You clearly ignored that explanation.

I prefer the idea of giving people all the info to make their own decisions. Not gatekeeping & talking down to them.

You do you. If you are going to give them all the information, then you need to include that sometimes sand impactions happen when tortoise are housed on sand, and nobody, including you, knows why it sometimes happens. If warning people if this danger and recommending they not use the thing that causes the problem is gatekeeping, then call me a gate keeper all you want. I am happy to slam the gate right in the face of old incorrect tortoise keeping practices that are harmful to tortoises.

 

[S2G]

I'm.just responding to your last paragraph. If you ever answered as many threads as Tom, Yvonne, myself, you would realize how important it is in keeping advice as simple as possible. Now, I do like giving options. Like when I started recommending the greenhouses for closed chamber. Not everyone can spend over 300 for a one time enclosure that will last only a couple years if lucky.
But I don't think it's responsible to recommend anything that could be dangerous.
Sometimes even the simplest easy answer is not understood. Now to add sand and try to explain how to use it, but don't do this, but do that, no not that sand, but this kind of sand, yada yada yada,
then going into the possible dangers of it, yikes, I and the rest of us don't have time for all that.

Thats why I link Toms caresheet 99% of time if someone hasnt already & go about my business. I don't see a problem linking Chris's video either though. Hes very thorough & mentions precieved risks regularly.

No ones holding a hatchling Michael Jackson style off a balconey.

You can blame crowdstrike for torching my computer & freeing me up to enough to be a pain in the butt 😆

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

No ones holding a hatchling Michael Jackson style off a balconey.

This sent me🤣🤣idec if we disagree here, I love conversing with you😂😂

 

[S2G]

No. I'm not talking about my feelings. I am talking about facts. I have literally laid eyes on multiple dead tortoises, seen necropsy reports, talked to vets, witnessed sand impaction surgeries. These are facts, not feelings. Its not my feeling that sand caused these impactions, it is a fact. You are talking about something you have not seen and have no experience with. That's great. I'm glad you haven't had to deal first hand with a sand impaction case in one of your animals. Its a terrible thing. But it makes no logical sense for you to deny that other people have had problems, or to invent reasons in your own head about why they had a problem and you have not.


No. You are just talking about your lack of experience with sand impaction. Its like talking to someone who has personally gone through chemo and radiation therapy for cancer, and knows several other people who have, and you are standing there telling them they are wrong, and their cancer was caused by such and such, and that you and other people you know haven't had cancer, so its obviously happening because of something they've done.

There are lots of "issues" with tortoise keeping. People adding sand is one of them. Does it really matter which problem is bigger than the other? Let's do what we can to eliminate as many of the problems as we can. Let's educate people about hydration, humidity for small growing tortoises, the right bulbs to use, enclosure sizes, and what substrates are safest to use.

A boogeyman is a fictional character intended to scare children into behaving. Sand impaction is a real problem, not an invention in my mind or a "feeling" that I have had.


Your back yard is not the wild. It cannot ever be. I've already explained examples of how this line of thinking leads to catastrophic mistakes that kill tortoises. You clearly ignored that explanation.


You do you. If you are going to give them all the information, then you need to include that sometimes sand impactions happen when tortoise are housed on sand, and nobody, including you, knows why it sometimes happens. If warning people if this danger and recommending they not use the thing that causes the problem is gatekeeping, then call me a gate keeper all you want. I am happy to slam the gate right in the face of old incorrect tortoise keeping practices that are harmful to tortoises.

Again what you've seen. Ive seen different. Going by your own logic my experiences are facts to.

I would argue i have more experience with sand & the implications of it than you do. I'm from FL & south AL I've been in a hot, humid, sandy environment my whole life. Its very similar to gardenstate.

Old practices my butt. Its not a dry sandy desert like tortoisetrust. It has moisture in it. I have to modify things so its not as humid for certain species.

 

[Fluffy]

Let me add another wrinkle to this. I hate to at this point but I think it's important because I believe it's a part of this discussion now. When new people show up here they are given the links to Tom's threads, "For those who have a young sulcata" , "The best way to Raise any Temperate Species of Tortoise" or "Info for New People Please Read this First". Maybe there are others ones but I believe these are probably the most popular. This conversation has turned to include protecting new people from hazards. I am NOT advocating changing the care sheet. I just want to point out some things.

First of all, this forum has been very negative about any other sources of information. Telling people not trust any information from YouTube Etc. I will stick to YouTube since that's what started this debate. The majority of the people out there are not coming here for their care info. Usually by the time they get here they have already learned the wrong stuff.

Let's start with Tom's threads.
"For those who have a young Sulcata" Viewed 379K times
"The best way to raise any Temperate species of Tortoise" Viewed 165K times
"Info for new people please read this first" Viewed 56K times
All of this is impressive. Some of these have been around for ten plus years.

Now for example "Kamp Kenan" ,who has been talked about here for years as having terrible husbandry,
has 818K subscribers with 1.4K videos. He currently has 15 videos with 1 million or more views.
Kenan is only one source of videos out there. A quick search will show you just how popular reptile videos are on YouTube.

The reason I bring this up is simple. If you're going to tell people not to do something you better have a reason why and not just a "because I said so". Most people never make it here. Of the ones that do very few post. Trying to sensor info to make it simpler for new people is great but when questions come up we have to be able to explain things and not just say because Tom said so or they're just going to go somewhere else.

It would be nice to be able to explain to new people why they see so many people doing something and why this way is a "better" way as opposed to the wrong way.

Just my 2 cents. Agin I have really enjoyed this debate and have learned so much already but I thought it was important to point out some things that may help us get the message across better and so you can see what we're up against.

 

[wellington]

Let me add another wrinkle to this. I hate to at this point but I think it's important because I believe it's a part of this discussion now. When new people show up here they are given the links to Tom's threads, "For those who have a young sulcata" , "The best way to Raise any Temperate Species of Tortoise" or "Info for New People Please Read this First". Maybe there are others ones but I believe these are probably the most popular. This conversation has turned to include protecting new people from hazards. I am NOT advocating changing the care sheet. I just want to point out some things.

First of all, this forum has been very negative about any other sources of information. Telling people not trust any information from YouTube Etc. I will stick to YouTube since that's what started this debate. The majority of the people out there are not coming here for their care info. Usually by the time they get here they have already learned the wrong stuff.

Let's start with Tom's threads.
"For those who have a young Sulcata" Viewed 379K times
"The best way to raise any Temperate species of Tortoise" Viewed 165K times
"Info for new people please read this first" Viewed 56K times
All of this is impressive. Some of these have been around for ten plus years.

Now for example "Kamp Kenan" ,who has been talked about here for years as having terrible husbandry,
has 818K subscribers with 1.4K videos. He currently has 15 videos with 1 million or more views.
Kenan is only one source of videos out there. A quick search will show you just how popular reptile videos are on YouTube.

The reason I bring this up is simple. If you're going to tell people not to do something you better have a reason why and not just a "because I said so". Most people never make it here. Of the ones that do very few post. Trying to sensor info to make it simpler for new people is great but when questions come up we have to be able to explain things and not just say because Tom said so or they're just going to go somewhere else.

It would be nice to be able to explain to new people why they see so many people doing something and why this way is a "better" way as opposed to the wrong way.

Just my 2 cents. Agin I have really enjoyed this debate and have learned so much already but I thought it was important to point out some things that may help us get the message across better and so you can see what we're up against.

By all means you spend all your time explaining. Tom took the time to write up what he has and we use it. If we didn't agree with it we wouldn't share it. We have many members that lurk and learn but don't join in for whatever reason. We have some members that are just here and don't add anything or some that only share pictures. Very few actually post or answer posts. We lost a few very active members for various sad reasons. I was hesitant to join years ago, because I had never joined a forum before.
I don't share people's info that I don't believe in. Like the two you mentioned. Nothing against the person, but a lot of the things they do I don't agree with.
Our members here are not into getting likes, they are into saving tortoises. Kenan and Chris make the videos to get likes and endorsements and yes to share their love for tortoises but they also have another motive.

 

[S2G]

The reason I bring this up is simple. If you're going to tell people not to do something you better have a reason why and not just a "because I said so". Most people never make it here. Of the ones that do very few post. Trying to sensor info to make it simpler for new people is great but when questions come up we have to be able to explain things and not just say because Tom said so or they're just going to go somewhere else.

And this is my whole point. Chris's videos are so much more palatable that this cranky gate keeper stuff. If you're going to poke holes in someones caresheet you need to be able to explain yourself in a more articulate way with thorough proof.

So now this question. Do you think its more risky to post a thorough palatable video where someone has the choice to add some sand?....or being driven somewhere else forever more due to a cranky sledge hammer approach with very little proof of what theyre claiming.

What makes this bad? Ive seen it! Ok well these people have not seen it. Well my seen it is better than their seen it thats facts! Ok where are the facts? Ive seen it!...

 

[wellington]

And this is my whole point. Chris's videos are so much more palatable that this cranky gate keeper stuff. If you're going to poke holes in someones caresheet you need to be able to explain yourself in a more articulate way with thorough proof.

So now this question. Do you think its more risky to post a thorough palatable video where someone has the choice to add some sand?....or being driven somewhere else forever more due to a cranky sledge hammer approach with very little proof of what theyre claiming.

What makes this bad? Ive seen it! Ok well these people have not seen it. Well my seen it is better than their seen it thats facts! Ok where are the facts? Ive seen it!...

No, the forums way is the better way to help. Most of the members are looking for info for their single pet tortoise. Very few have any knowledge or all they have is the outdated info.
Most will never have or want the opportunity to see all or some of what you and others claim to have seen.
If you think Chris hasn't had any loses or that he tells the reasons for them all, then you are being greatly fooled.
But, by all means, you take the time, as I have already said, and respond to all the appropriate posts and be sure to go into great detail, so they understand and don't make a mistake.
If you are going to refuse to see the better, makes more sense, no harm done way, on a forum that has been here longer then you and have helped way more people then likely any other place, then maybe you all should agree to disagree.
You could always start your own forum. We had members do that already. They didn't agree with the facts in front of their faces. That forum lasted a very short time, lucky if it was even a year.
If you want to promote sand, or even if Chris, who is a member wanted to, he could post here too. He won't make money off them here though. He might get a few likes.
Just be sure you explain the details or be sure to answer all the follow up questions they will have when they get the posts from members that will tell them not to use sand cuz it can cause impactions.
Everyone is free to make their own choices. There are no forum police that will show up at anyone's house to ticket you or berate you for using sand.
If you or anyone else wants to take the risk go for it. Just remember, it's the tortoise that pays for owner mistakes, some of which is not reversible.

 

[Tom]

Again what you've seen. Ive seen different. Going by your own logic my experiences are facts to.

No. I have seen something. You have seen nothing. You have not seen sand impaction cases. You think its a non-issue. I am taking about information that I have gained over years from seeing and dealing with the subject matter first hand. You are taking about a complete lack of information on your part. You have not seen or dealt with this issue and have no experience with it. That's why you don't understand what I've been saying for 18 pages.

Its like when I argue with someone about the merits of a closed chamber enclosure vs an open topped tortoise table, and they have never done a closed chamber. Its a one sided argument. They are all full of sound and fury and usually have lots of choice words for me, but they have no idea what they are talking about because they only have half the story and are completely ignorant about the other half. That's you. You've never seen or dealt with sand impaction. For YOU personally, it is a non issue. For people whose tortoise has died from it, I can assure you that it is an issue.

So let me ask you the same sort of question: Why do you advocate for humid conditions and closed chambers for these species that live in arid regions out in the wild? I could post a bunch of pictures here, the same pictures you keep posting on this thread, and make the case that there is no humidity and closed chambers where they come from, so why would you tell people to do it that way in their homes? Where is your evidence? Where are all your scientific peer reviewed journal citations that show the studies that prove this?

So now this question. Do you think its more risky to post a thorough palatable video where someone has the choice to add some sand?....or being driven somewhere else forever more due to a cranky sledge hammer approach with very little proof of what theyre claiming.

There is no lack of proof out in the world. I don't know why you keep saying that.

If the palatable video is telling people to mix sand in with their substrate and use a coil bulb for UV, then it is not palatable at all. You can't just ignore the bad parts. Any video advising people and showing them how to implement elements into their care and enclosure set up that are potential harmful, is not a video to me recommended or linked here. It doesn't matter how good the rest of the info is, or how much any of us like the video poster. Its bad info and it needs to be addressed as such. Same with any other Youtubers, that are showing dangerous or detrimental practices like mixing species or keeping hatchling outside all day.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

No, the forums way is the better way to help. Most of the members are looking for info for their single pet tortoise. Very few have any knowledge or all they have is the outdated info.
Most will never have or want the opportunity to see all or some of what you and others claim to have seen.
If you think Chris hasn't had any loses or that he tells the reasons for them all, then you are being greatly fooled.
But, by all means, you take the time, as I have already said, and respond to all the appropriate posts and be sure to go into great detail, so they understand and don't make a mistake.
If you are going to refuse to see the better, makes more sense, no harm done way, on a forum that has been here longer then you and have helped way more people then likely any other place, then maybe you all should agree to disagree.
You could always start your own forum. We had members do that already. They didn't agree with the facts in front of their faces. That forum lasted a very short time, lucky if it was even a year.
If you want to promote sand, or even if Chris, who is a member wanted to, he could post here too. He won't make money off them here though. He might get a few likes.
Just be sure you explain the details or be sure to answer all the follow up questions they will have when they get the posts from members that will tell them not to use sand cuz it can cause impactions.
Everyone is free to make their own choices. There are no forum police that will show up at anyone's house to ticket you or berate you for using sand.
If you or anyone else wants to take the risk go for it. Just remember, it's the tortoise that pays for owner mistakes, some of which is not reversible.

This is a battle we've all had to endure over the years. I quote and reference Tom's care sheets at least a thousand times over the years. Every once in a while you'll get folks come back and insist: "but I saw XYZ do it such and such a way on YouTube (or wherever), and that's how I'm gonna do it". My answer is always the same. "Your tort, your decision". I don't go nutz trying to convince people, but it's always funny when the come back months or years later with the very issues I warned them about. I'm sure Tom feels the same way at times.

 

[wellington]

This is a battle we've all had to endure over the years. I quote and reference Tom's care sheets at least a thousand times over the years. Every once in a while you'll get folks come back and insist: "but I saw XYZ do it such and such a way on YouTube (or wherever), and that's how I'm gonna do it". My answer is always the same. "Your tort, your decision". I don't go nutz trying to convince people, but it's always funny when the come back months or years later with the very issues I warned them about. I'm sure Tom feels the same way at times.

A lot of us feel the same way. Just think of how many won't come back and say they should have listened.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

A lot of us feel the same way. Just think of how many won't come back and say they should have listened.

That's just the thing... how to not scare them away. That's the reason I don't (overly) argue with them. I want folks to feel comfortable asking questions. I never want to come across as "my way or the highway". Sometimes that's hard to do and I really need to take a deep breath. But seeing torts with severe pyramiding, missing limbs, MBD, dark urine, etc really grinds my gears at time, especially after being warned about what caused it in the first place. At that point it's like putting out a fire after being warned not to strike the match. </end rant>