Underbite Hermann's Tortoise

[cliocles]

Hello! My tortoise (testudo hermanni boettgeri 4 yrs old) has an underbite. I rescued it from my cousin because he got it for his kids and was keeping it in bad living conditions (inside glass enclosure with a very small layer of soil, no uvb, only feeding lettuce and dandelion leaves). It has a bit of some pyramiding. I have a vet appointment in august but i wanted to educate myself beforehand on what you can do about underbites in tortoises. Is there a way to fix it? What causes it? Is this a severe case of an underbite? Does it cause pain/discomfort? Can it get worse and if yes what can i do to prevent this? I am not 100% sure but i think she struggles with biting off leafs etc. I want to add that i live in Germany in case that is relevant. I am very grateful for any help/advise i can get, thank you.

 

[TammyJ]

Welcome. I am sure you will soon get some advice and help from our experts.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello and welcome to the forum! Bless you for taking this guy on❤️
I unfortunately can’t answer too much for the underbite side of things as I’ve not dealt with it myself, let me tag @Tom and @wellington to see if that have any insight. For what it’s worth, it doesn’t look too bad in the photos to me.

In the meantime, I’m going to include some information below on an example of an appropriate indoor set up, it includes the correct levels and equipment etc, hopefully it helps for if there’s anything you need to adjust😊

This is one way to come up with an appropriate indoor set up, including the appropriate indoor uv, if they are primarily housed outdoors, you may not need it, but if housed inside for a good portion of the year, I’d add it.

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. If your house stays in the 60’s don’t worry about this!

Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes. The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon. I’ve attached examples of the two brands to go for and some examples of how to mount them.

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss. The problem with top soil is unless you’ve composted it yourself, you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it, it could be something toxic. Sand can irritate the eyes and be an impaction risk, moss is an impaction risk too.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting a little too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

I’d personally recommend you make your own base to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have, roaming room is vital for tortoise health, it aids in digestion and builds muscle strength. The closer you can get to an 8x4 size the better, but again if yours is primarily housed in a large outdoor space, you’ll get away with something smaller for whilst they’re inside. They still do need roaming room though. 8x4 is considered a minimum.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists😂

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting, use a temperature gun to determine how high the basking bulb needs to be, the uv I suggested needs to be mounted 18-20 inches from the substrate.

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct🙂

Also you may find this link below useful for some food ideas😁

The Tortoise Table - Home

The Tortoise Table plant database and resource site for Tortoise owners

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

 

[cliocles]

Welcome. I am sure you will soon get some advice and help from our experts.

Thank u for the reassurance

 

[cliocles]

Hello and welcome to the forum! Bless you for taking this guy on❤️
I unfortunately can’t answer too much for the underbite side of things as I’ve not dealt with it myself, let me tag @Tom and @wellington to see if that have any insight. For what it’s worth, it doesn’t look too bad in the photos to me.

In the meantime, I’m going to include some information below on an example of an appropriate indoor set up, it includes the correct levels and equipment etc, hopefully it helps for if there’s anything you need to adjust😊

This is one way to come up with an appropriate indoor set up, including the appropriate indoor uv, if they are primarily housed outdoors, you may not need it, but if housed inside for a good portion of the year, I’d add it.

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. If your house stays in the 60’s don’t worry about this!

Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes. The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon. I’ve attached examples of the two brands to go for and some examples of how to mount them.

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss. The problem with top soil is unless you’ve composted it yourself, you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it, it could be something toxic. Sand can irritate the eyes and be an impaction risk, moss is an impaction risk too.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting a little too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

I’d personally recommend you make your own base to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have, roaming room is vital for tortoise health, it aids in digestion and builds muscle strength. The closer you can get to an 8x4 size the better, but again if yours is primarily housed in a large outdoor space, you’ll get away with something smaller for whilst they’re inside. They still do need roaming room though. 8x4 is considered a minimum.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists😂

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting, use a temperature gun to determine how high the basking bulb needs to be, the uv I suggested needs to be mounted 18-20 inches from the substrate.

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct🙂

Also you may find this link below useful for some food ideas😁

The Tortoise Table - Home

The Tortoise Table plant database and resource site for Tortoise owners

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

Hello! First of all thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate all the in depth advice. ❤️🥰
I currently have my turtles pen set up in my balcony temporarily (not ideal but it’s still big and she’s getting natural sunlight) and next year i am moving into a house with a garden and will build something bigger and better for her. I just had to get her out of that situation asap. I also added a bunch of tortoise safe plants. I made a mistake earlier this yr by feeding pellets and i’m scared it made her grow too fast (she has keratin stress marks all over her shell).
My biggest problem is that it has been raining like crazy in Germany this yr so the soil has been permanently wet. When i squeeze it no excess water comes out tho because i put a drainage layer of clay pebbles and drilled holes into the bottom. I’m still worried tho because it doesn’t have any time to dry even if the sun shines everyday because it also rains everyday. After a rainy day i find mold sometimes as well. Do you happen to have any experience with overly humid soil? I added an umbrella over half of it but the whole thing still manages to get wet when it rains.

 

[wellington]

A picture of the enclosure will help us to help you with the rain
Also what are you calling keratin stress marks? Never heard of that before. A picture of it will help us to understand what you a referring to.

 

[cliocles]

A picture of the enclosure will help us to help you with the rain
Also what are you calling keratin stress marks? Never heard of that before. A picture of it will help us to understand what you a referring to.

Yes of course! Here are the pictures of the enclosure (she loves the wheel a lot). Underneath it are 4 bricks holding it up so that the water can drain properly. It was the best thing i came up with. 😕 I know it’s a bit of a mess i’m still a student and i tried to do it on a budget.

 

[cliocles]

A picture of the enclosure will help us to help you with the rain
Also what are you calling keratin stress marks? Never heard of that before. A picture of it will help us to understand what you a referring to.

i noticed these white dots a week ago and asked on reddit and somebody said they are keratin stress marks. i was scared it was the beginning of shell rot because of the humidity.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello! First of all thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate all the in depth advice. ❤️🥰
I currently have my turtles pen set up in my balcony temporarily (not ideal but it’s still big and she’s getting natural sunlight) and next year i am moving into a house with a garden and will build something bigger and better for her. I just had to get her out of that situation asap. I also added a bunch of tortoise safe plants. I made a mistake earlier this yr by feeding pellets and i’m scared it made her grow too fast (she has keratin stress marks all over her shell).
My biggest problem is that it has been raining like crazy in Germany this yr so the soil has been permanently wet. When i squeeze it no excess water comes out tho because i put a drainage layer of clay pebbles and drilled holes into the bottom. I’m still worried tho because it doesn’t have any time to dry even if the sun shines everyday because it also rains everyday. After a rainy day i find mold sometimes as well. Do you happen to have any experience with overly humid soil? I added an umbrella over half of it but the whole thing still manages to get wet when it rains.

No problem at all!❤️
Those plans sound great! I look forward to watching your progress! We can all help advising on the bigger outdoor set up when the time comes😁

Is it a top soil you’re using? The problem with that is unless you’ve safely composted it yourself, there’s no telling exactly what plants went into it, it could be something toxic. It’ll be best switch to some coco coir(which you will hopefully find less muddy than what’s happening now) and putting some orchid bark on top(fir) I’d also remove the clay balls, it tortoise somehow manages to swallow one or crack one so they’re small enough to eat, that will be a hazard. We have a controlled indoor set up so luckily don’t have this issue, my advice would be some sort of marquee covering perhaps, or bringing them inside whilst it’s raining to stop the substrate getting soaked.
How are the ground temperatures in the enclosure outside?🙂I only ask because if it’s too cool coupled with constant wetness you’ll potentially get a sick tortoise, they need to reach a certain temperature to bask and digest properly😊

 

[Tom]

View attachment 373971View attachment 373972Hello! My tortoise (testudo hermanni boettgeri 4 yrs old) has an underbite. I rescued it from my cousin because he got it for his kids and was keeping it in bad living conditions (inside glass enclosure with a very small layer of soil, no uvb, only feeding lettuce and dandelion leaves). It has a bit of some pyramiding. I have a vet appointment in august but i wanted to educate myself beforehand on what you can do about underbites in tortoises. Is there a way to fix it? What causes it? Is this a severe case of an underbite? Does it cause pain/discomfort? Can it get worse and if yes what can i do to prevent this? I am not 100% sure but i think she struggles with biting off leafs etc. I want to add that i live in Germany in case that is relevant. I am very grateful for any help/advise i can get, thank you.

Hello and welcome. Its wonderful of you to rescue this poor little one. Here are some points to ponder:
-Reddit, FB, YT, vet, pet stores, and most other sources are going to give you all sorts of conflicting and bad info. This leads to terrible frustration and an unhealthy tortoise.
-"Keratin stress marks" is not a thing, and tortoise can't grow too fast. Slow growth for tortoises, through forced food deprivation, is part of all of that old wrong way of thinking and caring for them. Feed, hydrate, and house them correctly and there is no such thing as growth that is "too fast". Good growth is a sign of good health.
-In most cases, underbites are the result of metabolic bone disease that allows the jawbone orientation to get out of whack. Mis-shappen jaws are commonly seen in bearded dragon and green iguana MBD cases, but tortoises don't show it as obviously. I'll try to keep it brief... If there is not enough calcium in the diet, or the wrong calcium to phosphorous ratio, or if the calcium cannot be utilized by the tortoise's body due to lack of D3, the body slowly steals calcium from the bones in order to keep living. There must be a certain level of calcium in the blood to survive. Over time, this can weaken the bones such that the muscle tension can cause the now "softer" bones to mal-form. In the aforementioned lizards, the body tries to strengthen the weakened bone areas with fibrous connective tissue, which does not require calcium to build. That is why they get swollen limbs and jaws. Due to tortoise anatomy, if this is happening, it is far less obvious and hard to see with the naked eye. Typically what IS visible to us, is the underbite. How to fix it? You really can't. If caught early and the calcium/D3 situation is corrected, the bones can re-ossify an become "normal" bones again, but often they remain mis-shapen as they re-calcify, and this can be seen in iguanas or bearded dragons with wavy or crooked tails. In a tortoise, we get the underbite. A vet can try to trim the lower beak and get it to fit under the upper beak again, but this is hit or miss.
-An outdoor table type enclosure in your wet climate is obviously not working. Make a large tortoise table indoors with the correct heating and lighting, and an Arcadia 12% HO UV tube. Use the outside table wen it is warm and sunny, and leave it covered to keep the rain out the rest of the time.

Much more correct and current care info here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

And here is the care sheet for your species:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

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Questions are welcome!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Going over what Tom has said above, it will probably be a good idea to go over my first reply and hopefully that can inspire an idea for an indoor set up for you, I agree that being out in the constant rain like that isn’t working right now

 

[wellington]

View attachment 373993
i noticed these white dots a week ago and asked on reddit and somebody said they are keratin stress marks. i was scared it was the beginning of shell rot because of the humidity.

Reddit isn't the best place for info. The little scraggly is nothing to worry about at all. They are not stress marks.