why basking spot 115 degrees?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,390
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.

Tom, that's probably what happened to your post on Isa's thread too. The computer just automatically puts the oldest time/date post as the first one, and there's no way for us to put a more current post (one of the mods) as the first one.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Your point 1. Isnt an 85-90 degree basking spot an 85-90 degree basking spot? What does the environment around have to do with that particular spot. If its 85 degrees at my house and the mountain top above my house is 10 degrees its still 85 at my house. You state yourself that it was 67 degrees at your house but your tortoise carapace was 104.1. What I am saying is cant tortoises thermoregulate using basking lamps as well? If its 67 degrees in your house and you provide them with a 90-95 degree basking spot wont their shells reflect similar findings to your outdoor reference? [End Quote]

This is physics Paul. Yes an 85-90 degree basking spot is an 85-90 degree basking spot. And indoors it can ONLY get a tort up to 85-90 degrees. And THAT'S the problem. They want/need to be 100+. Outdoors with an AMBIENT 85-90 they can get MUCH warmer than ambient by sitting in the sun. (Note Scooter at 104.1 on a 67 degree day.) Indoors, if we set the basking temp to 90, they can't get any warmer than 90. Is this making sense? If you put a brick in the sun on an 80 degree day anywhere in the world it will heat up to well over 100+. At my place on a windless day, I'd speculate I could get that brick into the o 150's. Conversely, if you put that same brick under an indoor incandescent light where the basking temp is set to 85, it will heat up to........ wait for it........ 85!!!



emysemys said:
I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.

Tom, that's probably what happened to your post on Isa's thread too. The computer just automatically puts the oldest time/date post as the first one, and there's no way for us to put a more current post (one of the mods) as the first one.

No problem Yvvone. I figured it must be something like that. Thanks for the explanation. It does sort of cast a different light on things as far as this thread and the OP.

 

Jacqui

Wanna be raiser of Lemon Drop tortoises
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
39,941
Location (City and/or State)
A Land Far Away...
Tom said:
I've always been respectful, courteous, and careful, even when passionately pleading my case. That's my perception and intention, anyway. I accept that your perception is different.
I will add to this comment, there have been times in the past where I would NOT say that is true about you. Just about everybody crosses that line at sometime.


emysemys said:
I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.

Tom, that's probably what happened to your post on Isa's thread too. The computer just automatically puts the oldest time/date post as the first one, and there's no way for us to put a more current post (one of the mods) as the first one.

Yvonne, I think if we were to make a new thread and in the first post say why we are doing the thread AND THEN merge the posts into that thread it would work. Just a thought.:tort:
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
onarock said:
Your point 2. "A tortoises behavior ought to be an indication of whether or not your temps are correct. If they are always directly under the light or always on the hot side and seldom move to the cool side of the enclosure, it should indicate that things are too cool." This is not true especially for hatchlings. I have seen first hand account both indoors and out where hatchlings have begun to fail within minutes of being exposed to intense heat, basically freezing them right where they sit.

"At a basking temp of 85-90 they will most often just sit right under the light, all the time, as they never reach their desired temp. THIS is what will really dry them out." Are you stating that tortoises cant thermoregulate indoors? A forum member did a study using blocks of wood and a 75 watt spot lamp with ambient temps in the 60's and recorded surface temps well over 100 and a core temp of 90+ and thats wood. I know torts arent wood.

"...basically freezing them right where they sit?" Isn't that called basking? They find a warm spot and sit there and enjoy it. I do the same thing sometimes. What makes you think they are "failing"? I've raised dozens of hatchlings myself and participated in the raising of hundreds, through friends, family, co-workers, customers and now TFO members for the last year or more. I have never heard of a single tortoise "failing" due to a basking light being 110 degrees or due to being outside in the sun. From the day they hatch, if they get too warm, they move to a cooler area or shade.

As far as the experiments with wood and the 75 watt light, how does that help your point? If I move a 75 watt lamp close enough I can get a basking spot of 180 degrees or more. I have no doubt I could start a fire with a 75 watt basking light, if I moved it close enough. What does that have to do with anything? I use everything from 35 watt -160 watt bulbs all year long indoors and every single basking spot must be repeatedly checked for the right temps. I set them all to a little over 100 at tortoise level. When the room heats up a few degrees in summer, they spend less time under them and usually move slightly to the side instead of directly under them. Sounds to me like the 75 watt bulb was doing what it is supposed to. If surface temps were getting too hot, the fixture would need to be adjusted higher or switch to a smaller wattage bulb or perhaps a flood instead of a spot. The wattage and bulb type are not important, the actual basking temp is. Of course, what Kevin said about small spots and larger tortoises certainly applies. Again with the caveat: I'm not talking about redfoots, most Testudo sp., or other "forest" tortoises.

Jacqui said:
Tom said:
I've always been respectful, courteous, and careful, even when passionately pleading my case. That's my perception and intention, anyway. I accept that your perception is different.
I will add to this comment, there have been times in the past where I would NOT say that is true about you. Just about everybody crosses that line at sometime.





Yes, Ma'am. Point taken.
 

Jacqui

Wanna be raiser of Lemon Drop tortoises
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
39,941
Location (City and/or State)
A Land Far Away...
My personal fear when we make such blanketed comments as "the basking spot should be 115" is the beginner who comes here and reads that and doesn't know:

1. What tortoise types are you talking about?

2. Has the normal wayyyyy to small enclosure currently for his tortoise (and normally it's a hatching who can't take the heat as well as an adult might be able to).

3. How and where do you take that temp? What do you use to take it?

I have worked in too many reptile forums and read to often the "stupid" things people will read and do, following advise on care.

From reading almost every single post in this thread, I guess I should be having the basking light for my Homes hingebacks at 115. Folks your killing my tortoise here. :(

Somebody earlier said, they think you should start low (I think it was said 80) and work your way up, watching your tortoise as you do so. I think that was one of the wisest things said in this thread. By doing that it takes into account what tortoise species you have, what size it is, what it's own individualized needs are, what size it's enclosure is, whats in that enclosure, and what the environment is around that enclosure.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
onarock said:
Your point 3. I am not anymore hung up on exact numbers then you or Dean are on stating your opinion and theory as fact and promoting such.

You say you're not hung up on specific numbers, I say I'm not hung up on specific numbers. Okay, then lets drop it. We're agreed. A few degrees or percentage points one way or the other don't matter that much. I still think that my four previously listed species need a 100-110 degree basking spot indoors so they can raise their body temp to 100+ if they so desire. I'm not sure 85-90 is warm enough for those species to thrive. Again I cite my example of all of mine CHOOSING to be around 100 when they are out in the sun and have the choice to be whatever temp they want. Most days lately they could move to the shade and keep their temp in the 70's. But they don't. They choose to stay in the sun and warm up to 100 or so. Now this is not by chance. If I put a rock or brick in there and it just sits in the sun continuously, it will heat up to 130-140. Yet the torts, by moving in and out of shade and sun consistently maintain their temps at around 100.

onarock said:
Your point 4. You have stated that your relative ambient temp is in the low 80's. You also stated that my torts bask in the morning and afternoon sun, which is true. They dont bask in the mid day sun. Let me get this straight. You keep an ambient temp similir to mine. You keep relative humidity similir to mine sometimes. In a way you state that my torts prefer to bask when the sun is not at its peak (an observation noted by many a tortoise keeper and by people who observe them in the wild not just pertaining to my group) then why is it that you and apparently Dean provide mid day sun all the time? A condition they try to avoid.

What you seem to be failing to understand is that the torts don't sit around content at ambient. They bask in the morning to get ABOVE ambient and stay there. By mid day they are at their desired temp and continuing to bask would put them OVER their desired temp so they move to the shade. On a cooler day they'll get back in the sun sooner to maintain that "near 100" degree temperature that they feel the need to be at. As the sun gets lower and the temps start to drop in the afternoon they get back in the sun in an effort to maintain the higher than ambient body temp.

To see my point do this: Go temp your torts carapaces first thing in the morning. Then temp them while they are basking. Then temp them again right at the moment when they start move to the shade as they feel warm enough. Temp them some more before during and after the afternoon bask. I think even in HI, you'll find that they are above ambient, when given the choice. Where I am, with my weather, for my species and my individuals, almost all of them of all ages and sizes strive to maintain a body temp of around 100 on sunny days that will allow it. An 85-90 degree indoor basking site will not let them get warm enough.
 

John

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
1,081
emysemys said:
I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.

Tom, that's probably what happened to your post on Isa's thread too. The computer just automatically puts the oldest time/date post as the first one, and there's no way for us to put a more current post (one of the mods) as the first one.

i completely disagree with this yvonne if you reread the thread deans was the first too take it off topic and attempt too make it a propaganda thread for his way of thinking,that post started it all and was left out.
 

DeanS

SULCATA OASIS
10 Year Member!
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
4,407
Location (City and/or State)
SoCal
squamata said:
emysemys said:
I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.

Tom, that's probably what happened to your post on Isa's thread too. The computer just automatically puts the oldest time/date post as the first one, and there's no way for us to put a more current post (one of the mods) as the first one.

i completely disagree with this yvonne if you reread the thread deans was the first too take it off topic and attempt too make it a propaganda thread for his way of thinking,that post started it all and was left out.

Not true! Paul asked Jess what her basking temps were...she responded...I chimed in!:D
 

John

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
1,081
DeanS said:
squamata said:
emysemys said:
I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.

Tom, that's probably what happened to your post on Isa's thread too. The computer just automatically puts the oldest time/date post as the first one, and there's no way for us to put a more current post (one of the mods) as the first one.

i completely disagree with this yvonne if you reread the thread deans was the first too take it off topic and attempt too make it a propaganda thread for his way of thinking,that post started it all and was left out.

Not true! Paul asked Jess what here basking temps were...she responded...I chimed in!:D

ya see deans your statement post 10 starts your basking temp needs too be...... paul asked a question and most times if he is giving advice it is stated as an opinion even though he has more experience than i think most of you know.there are a lot of things being presented as proven fact,that very likely could be just that but have yet too be proven,the real argument here is not the methods its how they are being fed too people.it stinks of arogance.i personally have spoken too people who have done what you promote long before you,and have abandoned the idea for a more moderate approach which produces the same results
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
squamata said:
i personally have spoken too people who have done what you promote long before you,and have abandoned the idea for a more moderate approach which produces the same results


John, I hear you and a couple of others saying this same thing. You all keep perpetrating what seems/feels like an attack on the method that I have found to work, but then saying, "oh no, we agree with it." I'm just not understanding.

Please, will one of you simply state what the more moderate method is? I clearly stated my method in the care sheet and every where else. I clearly explained why I use and recommend 100-110 degree basking sites in the posts above. Why won't one of you just spell it out for us? What is it that YOU recommend? Make a new care sheet explaining your method. Or post it in debatable and we can all discuss the merits of it. I am on this forum to LEARN. I also like to help and share what I know, but I'm primarily selfish and I want knowledge. I want to learn everything possible. It is my PRIMARY reason for being here. I'm dying to know what the more moderate approach is that produces the same results. Since tone does not come across in the printed word, let me explain that I do not mean this post to be in any way sarcastic or argumentative in any way. I REALLY do want to learn what it is you guys are talking about. I want everyone to learn it. If its better than what I know, I'll start doing it and promoting it too. If you'd simply spell it out, newbies could look at both methods and choose what is best for their situation. I don't want to "win". I don't care who is "right". I just want to see as many healthy torts for as many people as possible. I am on the "side" of whoever can deliver this. Why all the secrecy and vague hints?
 

John

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
1,081
Tom said:
squamata said:
i personally have spoken too people who have done what you promote long before you,and have abandoned the idea for a more moderate approach which produces the same results


John, I hear you and a couple of others saying this same thing. You all keep perpetrating what seems/feels like an attack on the method that I have found to work, but then saying, "oh no, we agree with it." I'm just not understanding.

Please, will one of you simply state what the more moderate method is? I clearly stated my method in the care sheet and every where else. I clearly explained why I use and recommend 100-110 degree basking sites in the posts above. Why won't one of you just spell it out for us? What is it that YOU recommend? Make a new care sheet explaining your method. Or post it in debatable and we can all discuss the merits of it. I am on this forum to LEARN. I also like to help and share what I know, but I'm primarily selfish and I want knowledge. I want to learn everything possible. It is my PRIMARY reason for being here. I'm dying to know what the more moderate approach is that produces the same results. Since tone does not come across in the printed word, let me explain that I do not mean this post to be in any way sarcastic or argumentative in any way. I REALLY do want to learn what it is you guys are talking about. I want everyone to learn it. If its better than what I know, I'll start doing it and promoting it too. If you'd simply spell it out, newbies could look at both methods and choose what is best for their situation. I don't want to "win". I don't care who is "right". I just want to see as many healthy torts for as many people as possible. I am on the "side" of whoever can deliver this. Why all the secrecy and vague hints?

well tom we all know i'm a horrible typist so i'll make it easy on everyone,LEOPARD TORTOISES,the natural history,captivecare,and breeding of stigmochelys pardalis by richard fife & jerry fife
you can get an autographed copy for about 17.00. this will save everyone the pain of my horrible typing skills. thanks john
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
squamata said:
well tom we all know i'm a horrible typist so i'll make it easy on everyone,LEOPARD TORTOISES,the natural history,captivecare,and breeding of stigmochelys pardalis by richard fife & jerry fife
you can get an autographed copy for about 17.00. this will save everyone the pain of my horrible typing skills. thanks john

Thanks John. I've got the book and I'm going to re-read it for about the 8th time. Their methods were not quite enough to get it done in my area, but now I understand at least what YOU mean by a more moderate approach.
 

John

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
1,081
Tom said:
squamata said:
well tom we all know i'm a horrible typist so i'll make it easy on everyone,LEOPARD TORTOISES,the natural history,captivecare,and breeding of stigmochelys pardalis by richard fife & jerry fife
you can get an autographed copy for about 17.00. this will save everyone the pain of my horrible typing skills. thanks john

Thanks John. I've got the book and I'm going to re-read it for about the 8th time. Their methods were not quite enough to get it done in my area, but now I understand at least what YOU mean by a more moderate approach.

so out of curiosity tom,you say it didn't get it done in your area but you are not preaching too your area,you are preaching literally too the world.without knowing what each person's situation is,and i can see it for what it is and therefore i question it
 

Az tortoise compound

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
681
Location (City and/or State)
Arizona
squamata said:
Tom said:
squamata said:
well tom we all know i'm a horrible typist so i'll make it easy on everyone,LEOPARD TORTOISES,the natural history,captivecare,and breeding of stigmochelys pardalis by richard fife & jerry fife
you can get an autographed copy for about 17.00. this will save everyone the pain of my horrible typing skills. thanks john

Thanks John. I've got the book and I'm going to re-read it for about the 8th time. Their methods were not quite enough to get it done in my area, but now I understand at least what YOU mean by a more moderate approach.

so out of curiosity tom,you say it didn't get it done in your area but you are not preaching too your area,you are preaching literally too the world.without knowing what each person's situation is,and i can see it for what it is and therefore i question it

John,
Based on that statement, no one should ever give advice on the net. Any good advice has always either started or ended with "This is based on my experience and has worked well for me."

What's wrong with a person giving their version of the best advice?
99% of everything on these internet forums are opinions
 

John

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
1,081
Az tortoise compound said:
squamata said:
Tom said:
squamata said:
well tom we all know i'm a horrible typist so i'll make it easy on everyone,LEOPARD TORTOISES,the natural history,captivecare,and breeding of stigmochelys pardalis by richard fife & jerry fife
you can get an autographed copy for about 17.00. this will save everyone the pain of my horrible typing skills. thanks john

Thanks John. I've got the book and I'm going to re-read it for about the 8th time. Their methods were not quite enough to get it done in my area, but now I understand at least what YOU mean by a more moderate approach.

so out of curiosity tom,you say it didn't get it done in your area but you are not preaching too your area,you are preaching literally too the world.without knowing what each person's situation is,and i can see it for what it is and therefore i question it

John,
Based on that statement, no one should ever give advice on the net. Any good advice has always either started or ended with "This is based on my experience and has worked well for me."

What's wrong with a person giving their version of the best advice?
99% of everything on these internet forums are opinions

i agree comletely mick but this is not the case here these things are not being stated as opinion or experience that works for some they are being stated as THE way.see mick the problem here is it simply is not being presented as advice or opinion it is being presented as law read back through the many threads we have now been through on this and it is plain too see.what tom is doing is not new it has been done before too an extent as i stated.furthermore that statement does not read like that at all.tom said fife's methods weren't enough for his area well maybe they work for mine,i have the book so i know of it.i'm sure there are people who come here that only know what they see here.maybe they don't happen too be tom's neighbor.
 

Kristina

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
5,383
Location (City and/or State)
Cadillac, Michigan
I don't use super hot basking areas myself. My enclosures for my babies run from 80* ambient (Cherryhead) to 95* on the hot side, 80* on the cool side (Sulcata babies.)

It has been a couple of years since I had larger Sulcatas, so I will tell you what I have experienced with my Russians.

During the summer, they are outside 24/7. First thing in the morning, they bask for about an hour, from 9-10 am. They rarely come out of their burrows before 9 AM. Then they graze for about an hour. Once temps hit about 80* F, they all go back to the shade, and remain there the majority of the day. In the afternoon, when it starts to cool down, and the sun drops in the sky a bit, they come out and graze for another hour or two. By 6-7 PM, they are starting to tuck themselves in for the night, even though it doesn't get dark until 10.

The ONLY time I see them out in the direct sunlight during the hottest part of the day is if I have the sprinkler on. (This is true for my Redfoots and Hingebacks as well.)

I have taken a bit more "moderate" approach to the humidity issue. My enclosures are humid, but not SUPER humid. They range from 60% to 80%. I have been misting my babies twice a day, and soaking very little, actually. I do however observe each and every one of the babies "self-soaking" in the water dish daily.

My Cherryhead's enclosure is on the higher end of the humidity scale - 80%. His enclosure is a constant 80*. There have been days when I have not misted at all, yet he has a humid hide. This baby is growing as perfect as I could ever hope for. He looks amazing, I am EXTREMELY proud of him.

My little Greek's enclosure is on the lower end of the humidity spectrum. It is about 60%. In the beginning I was raising her on a dry substrate, and misting twice daily. She began to develop pyramiding. I moved her from the open top sweater box into an aquarium, upped the humidity, and gave her a humid hide. She exhibits pyramiding along her vertebral scutes but the rest of her is smooth. I have been misting more and I am hoping she will continue to smooth out. I feel like I failed with her.

My baby Sulcatas have a humid hide that is 99% humidity and 95* inside. The cool side of the enclosure is 80* and ambient humidity is 70%. They spend most of the day in the hide, except when eating or self-soaking in the water dish (which they do, a LOT. They are TOTAL water babies, especially the darker of the two.) There is a heat source over the water dish so it remains warm all the time. I mist them twice daily, morning and night. I have not had them long, but they exhibit new growth and it is coming in smooth.

My Sri Lankan star has a humid hide and her warmest temp is 90*. She also self-soaks and I mist twice daily. Just a few days ago I posted pictures of how smooth she is. I am EXTREMELY proud of her new growth, and also EXTREMELY nervous that I am going to "screw her up."

I just received a little Leopard today. His enclosure and treatment will 100% mimic the Sulcata hatchlings.

I wish I had pictures to back this last up - in 1992 I was given my first tortoise, a Gopher tortoise that was taken out of its habitat and brought back to Michigan. He was 3" long at the time. I raised him in an aquarium that was 90* on the warm side and 80* on the cool. I used plain old yard dirt for substrate and planted grass directly in it. His hide was one of those long terra cotta wine chillers. I would take it out every couple of days and soak it in warm water, and I also misted him once every day or so.

I had him for ten years. He grew to be 10" and 19lbs. One night in 2002, a predator broke into his outdoor enclosure and killed him. I cried, HARD. I was so devastated, and I still am. I miss my Gomer terribly.

When Gomer died, he was just as smooth as any wild counter part I have ever seen. I lost all of my photos of him (and my beloved Lab, Sammy, another story) in a house fire. But I swear on everything I hold holy that what I am saying is the truth.

So, that is MY take on "moderation." I am going to continue working with my hatchlings and continue learning.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
squamata said:
i agree comletely mick but this is not the case here these things are not being stated as opinion or experience that works for some they are being stated as THE way.see mick the problem here is it simply is not being presented as advice or opinion it is being presented as law read back through the many threads we have now been through on this and it is plain too see.

Absolutely NOT true! Here is a direct quote lifted DIRECTLY out of the care sheet: This is the very first line of the whole care sheet.

"Here are my thoughts on how to house, feed and care for hatchling and small sulcatas:"

Here are the last two paragraphs.

"Pyramiding prevention: This is all new stuff. You won't see it on an internet care sheet. It is my opinion and the product of 20 years of utter failure and tons of research, observation and trial and error. Lot's of other people helped me to reach these findings, so its not just me. Here is how to grow a smooth, healthy sulcata: Keep them humid, hydrated, warm and spray their shells 3-4 times a day. Yes they are desert animals, but the babies stay hidden in burrows, root balls and leaf litter, where it is HUMID. Babies don't just walk around out in the open in the hot dry air in the wild. They'd get eaten if they did. Once they get to around 6-8" humidity and moisture is much less critical. It is important to get them sunshine, exercise and a good diet too, but hydration, humidity, and moisture is the KEY to preventing pyramiding. Soak them in shallow, warm water at least once a day. I soak them first thing in the morning and again after a sunning session in the hot, dry air here. Sometimes, I'll soak them a third time before lights out. Sulcatas are very resistant to shell rot and fungus. I have never seen a single case of shell rot on a sulcata. As long as they are kept warm (75 or warmer) they will not get respiratory infections either. I have tried to keep one too wet and could not induce any sort of problem. You don't have to go crazy, but do keep them well hydrated. Pyramiding has nothing to do with excess protein or too much food. It has everything to do with MOISTURE, HUMIDITY and HYDRATION.


These things are MY opinion and are based on MY experiences with sulcatas and other torts over the last 20 years. My way is not the only way and other people have also raised smooth sulcatas, but it is very rare and can usually be traced back to high levels of humidity and or hydration. Much of this can also be applied to other species, but as of now, sulcatas are the only one that I have kept THIS wet."

How much more clearly could it be stated as just one guy's opinion based on his personal experience?
 

John

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
1,081
come on tom,you gonna tell me and everyone here i will not be able too find a thread on this forum that shows an example of what i am talking about?
 

kbaker

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
445
Location (City and/or State)
Michigan
kyryah said:
I don't use super hot basking areas myself. My enclosures for my babies run from 80* ambient (Cherryhead) to 95* on the hot side, 80* on the cool side (Sulcata babies.)

It has been a couple of years since I had larger Sulcatas, so I will tell you what I have experienced with my Russians.

During the summer, they are outside 24/7. First thing in the morning, they bask for about an hour, from 9-10 am. They rarely come out of their burrows before 9 AM. Then they graze for about an hour. Once temps hit about 80* F, they all go back to the shade, and remain there the majority of the day. In the afternoon, when it starts to cool down, and the sun drops in the sky a bit, they come out and graze for another hour or two. By 6-7 PM, they are starting to tuck themselves in for the night, even though it doesn't get dark until 10.

The ONLY time I see them out in the direct sunlight during the hottest part of the day is if I have the sprinkler on. (This is true for my Redfoots and Hingebacks as well.)

I have taken a bit more "moderate" approach to the humidity issue. My enclosures are humid, but not SUPER humid. They range from 60% to 80%. I have been misting my babies twice a day, and soaking very little, actually. I do however observe each and every one of the babies "self-soaking" in the water dish daily.

My Cherryhead's enclosure is on the higher end of the humidity scale - 80%. His enclosure is a constant 80*. There have been days when I have not misted at all, yet he has a humid hide. This baby is growing as perfect as I could ever hope for. He looks amazing, I am EXTREMELY proud of him.

My little Greek's enclosure is on the lower end of the humidity spectrum. It is about 60%. In the beginning I was raising her on a dry substrate, and misting twice daily. She began to develop pyramiding. I moved her from the open top sweater box into an aquarium, upped the humidity, and gave her a humid hide. She exhibits pyramiding along her vertebral scutes but the rest of her is smooth. I have been misting more and I am hoping she will continue to smooth out. I feel like I failed with her.

My baby Sulcatas have a humid hide that is 99% humidity and 95* inside. The cool side of the enclosure is 80* and ambient humidity is 70%. They spend most of the day in the hide, except when eating or self-soaking in the water dish (which they do, a LOT. They are TOTAL water babies, especially the darker of the two.) There is a heat source over the water dish so it remains warm all the time. I mist them twice daily, morning and night. I have not had them long, but they exhibit new growth and it is coming in smooth.

My Sri Lankan star has a humid hide and her warmest temp is 90*. She also self-soaks and I mist twice daily. Just a few days ago I posted pictures of how smooth she is. I am EXTREMELY proud of her new growth, and also EXTREMELY nervous that I am going to "screw her up."

I just received a little Leopard today. His enclosure and treatment will 100% mimic the Sulcata hatchlings.

I wish I had pictures to back this last up - in 1992 I was given my first tortoise, a Gopher tortoise that was taken out of its habitat and brought back to Michigan. He was 3" long at the time. I raised him in an aquarium that was 90* on the warm side and 80* on the cool. I used plain old yard dirt for substrate and planted grass directly in it. His hide was one of those long terra cotta wine chillers. I would take it out every couple of days and soak it in warm water, and I also misted him once every day or so.

I had him for ten years. He grew to be 10" and 19lbs. One night in 2002, a predator broke into his outdoor enclosure and killed him. I cried, HARD. I was so devastated, and I still am. I miss my Gomer terribly.

When Gomer died, he was just as smooth as any wild counter part I have ever seen. I lost all of my photos of him (and my beloved Lab, Sammy, another story) in a house fire. But I swear on everything I hold holy that what I am saying is the truth.

So, that is MY take on "moderation." I am going to continue working with my hatchlings and continue learning.

For your basking spots, are you using air temps or surface temps? Are you using a thermometer or a temp gun? This all makes a different on what you are saying.

Don't worry about your Star, I have found they are no different than Sulcates. And this is where species comes into play. A hingeback might need the hot spot less than a Sulcata does, but they will use it when they feel the need to.
______________________
Again whether it's the Sun or a basking area, unless they have just eaten or are sick, I don't expect them to be out in the heat if the weather is warm and it is mid-day. Now if they just woke up from a cool night or just had their breakfast they may be hitting the basking area.

One more point, if the basking spot is hotter, then the tortoise will need less time to bask. No little tortoise wants to be exposed for too long with hawks flying around. Get heated and run for cover!!:p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

New Posts

Top