why basking spot 115 degrees?

[Az tortoise compound]

My final thoughts on the initial question:

(previously posted and ignored due to bickering)

The benefit of a tortoise having the choice of spending time where it's 110* is he can use it if it chooses to. In my mind, as long as a gradient is provided our animals will travel where they want. I put my faith in the animals instinct (mother nature) knowing more than we do.



Can anyone tell me the downside of having the option?????
Might my little tortoise become frozen with indecision and cook? NO.

 

[Kristina]

For your basking spots, are you using air temps or surface temps? Are you using a thermometer or a temp gun? This all makes a different on what you are saying.

Air temps, digital thermometer (Accurite from Walmart)

 

[kbaker]

For your basking spots, are you using air temps or surface temps? Are you using a thermometer or a temp gun? This all makes a different on what you are saying.

Air temps, digital thermometer (Accurite from Walmart)

That means your basking areas are actually warmer then you think.

 

[John]

For your basking spots, are you using air temps or surface temps? Are you using a thermometer or a temp gun? This all makes a different on what you are saying.

Air temps, digital thermometer (Accurite from Walmart)

That means your basking areas are actually warmer then you think.

This is physics Paul. Yes an 85-90 degree basking spot is an 85-90 degree basking spot. And indoors it can ONLY get a tort up to 85-90 degrees. And THAT'S the problem. They want/need to be 100+. Outdoors with an AMBIENT 85-90 they can get MUCH warmer than ambient by sitting in the sun. (Note Scooter at 104.1 on a 67 degree day.) Indoors, if we set the basking temp to 90, they can't get any warmer than 90. Is this making sense? If you put a brick in the sun on an 80 degree day anywhere in the world it will heat up to well over 100+. At my place on a windless day, I'd speculate I could get that brick into the o 150's. Conversely, if you put that same brick under an indoor incandescent light where the basking temp is set to 85, it will heat up to........ wait for it........ 85!!!



Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-why-basking-spot-115-degrees?page=6#ixzz1GiVsE1JX

not according too this

 

[Saloli]

i say would it not make the most sence to mimic as closely as possible the average humidity, and temperatures of the native habitats, taking into account of course daily and seasonal variations. such as wet/dry seasons that Sulcutas, and Indian Stars expieriance?

 

[kbaker]

For your basking spots, are you using air temps or surface temps? Are you using a thermometer or a temp gun? This all makes a different on what you are saying.

Air temps, digital thermometer (Accurite from Walmart)

That means your basking areas are actually warmer then you think.

This is physics Paul. Yes an 85-90 degree basking spot is an 85-90 degree basking spot. And indoors it can ONLY get a tort up to 85-90 degrees. And THAT'S the problem. They want/need to be 100+. Outdoors with an AMBIENT 85-90 they can get MUCH warmer than ambient by sitting in the sun. (Note Scooter at 104.1 on a 67 degree day.) Indoors, if we set the basking temp to 90, they can't get any warmer than 90. Is this making sense? If you put a brick in the sun on an 80 degree day anywhere in the world it will heat up to well over 100+. At my place on a windless day, I'd speculate I could get that brick into the o 150's. Conversely, if you put that same brick under an indoor incandescent light where the basking temp is set to 85, it will heat up to........ wait for it........ 85!!!



Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-why-basking-spot-115-degrees?page=6#ixzz1GiVsE1JX

not according too this

Now you are talking tools. There is a difference between using a spot bulb, flood bulb, a normal round bulb, bulb with a dome fixture...

 

[exoticsdr]

I'm curious...who believes that ambient air temperatures have anything to do with this?

 

[Saloli]

but what if you don't use a thermostat to control your primary heat souce? for example my DBT's basking area gets to about 100 -110F when the ambiant is about 65 (room temp. the cage temp is about the same) note these are just averages taken with an alcohol thermometer after having the thermometer sitting on a piece of driftwood (their basking platform) after about 10 minutes. If I had a point and shoot type thermometer (like the ones used for HVAC) i could get more accurate readings, i probably will get one but for now the alcohol therm. is working fine. o speeking of which have any of you ever seen burns on a turtle or tortoise's shell either plasteron or carapace? it isn't pretty.

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm curious...who believes that ambient air temperatures have anything to do with this?

Not I said the goose!

My little Russians come out as soon as the sun starts shining on the fence at their level in the pen. The ambient air temperature is only about 40 degrees. I don't have a point-and-shoot thermometer, so I'm unable to measure how hot their carapaces get, but its pretty cute to see them all lined up along the bottom of the fence with a back leg and a front leg up on the fence. I'm willing to bet they're higher than 40 degrees.

 

[exoticsdr]

I knew I could count on you Yvonne.

 

[Saloli]

I'm curious...who believes that ambient air temperatures have anything to do with this?

Not I said the goose!

My little Russians come out as soon as the sun starts shining on the fence at their level in the pen. The ambient air temperature is only about 40 degrees. I don't have a point-and-shoot thermometer, so I'm unable to measure how hot their carapaces get, but its pretty cute to see them all lined up along the bottom of the fence with a back leg and a front leg up on the fence. I'm willing to bet they're higher than 40 degrees.

Thats the point i was trying to make with the differance between ambient and sunning area temp. the Russians like EBT are known to be active a low temperatures. I've seen my Boxers active down to about 40f and one of my friend's Russians she has seen them out at about the same temps. though i'm pretty sure the Boxer's heat up alot quicker because of their darker pigments.

 

[exoticsdr]

and that is the EXACT point to this entire thread in spite of how it's spun to confuse. If you provide an area in which the tort can reach it's optimum temp, and I dont care if its a sulcata or a Homes Hingeback, it will self regulate. Now, if the tort needs 100+ degrees to properly digest or to fight off a disease and you DON'T provide it, the tort has no way of making it's core temp go up and no chance of properly thermoregulating. This boils down to providing the temp gradient that is so often talked about...do all torts require the same temp gradient..absolutely not. But you cannot dispute, if you provide a temp gradient, even if the high temp is higher than their normal habitat and possibly lethal and the low temp is lower than normal and possibly lethal, the tort will self regulate if given an area in their habitat that they are allowed to do so. It has nothing to do with ambient air temps, it has everything to do with radiant heating, unless we make it so.

 

[Jacqui]

... the tort will self regulate if given an area in their habitat that they are allowed to do so.

My point was that we often don't give them enough room to do the self regulation and there lies the danger with saying they need such a high temp, in my opinion.

 

[exoticsdr]

... the tort will self regulate if given an area in their habitat that they are allowed to do so.

My point was that we often don't give them enough room to do the self regulation and there lies the danger with saying they need such a high temp, in my opinion.

No argument here. If the tort is unable to escape heat or cold to self regulate, it is detrimental to the tort....that does not take away from the fact that they need to be able to hit their optimum temps.

Some more food for thought, that never got taken seriously last evening. What is the optimum temp? Body Temps: Mammals 98-103 and birds 103-105 (marsupials like my roos a bit lower than other mammals) and all temps even higher when stressed or sick. Wouldn't it make sense that torts need higher core temps than 80, 85 or even 90 to properly digest? Afterall, how many terrestrial species would be able to survive long in such hypothermic conditions. I know, there are always exceptions to the rule: animals that hibernate, but they eventually return to normal.

 

[onarock]

Man, Doc, sorry that you took my sarcasitc remark 20 somehting post ago as a literal statement. I thought you sussed it out pretty well according to your post. Don't think others fared as well as you. Well, acutally I think you only took it half literal. I provided Dean and others that cant answer what is the benefit of 110+ plus basking an opportunity to hang themselvs. What I didnt account for is that some would actually take my temp statement seriously. A loaded question that backfired right in my face. Lessons learned
More later.

 

[Az tortoise compound]

As Aldabraman says.....Interesting.

 

[Tom]

Saloli, this is what I used to say back in the old days, but here's the problem: These torts have natural ranges made up of hundreds or thousands of square miles and containing literally millions of micro habitats. Which microhabitat should we mimic? Should we attempt to mimic the harsh seasonal variations too? We know that torts can SURVIVE harsh weather, but that doesn't mean its good for them. What we are left with is trying to figure out what works and what doesn't in the real world, here at home, in our enclosures. That is what this thread is all about. What works the best.

 

[DeanS]

Man, Doc, sorry that you took my sarcasitc remark 20 somehting post ago as a literal statement. I thought you sussed it out pretty well according to your post. Don't think others fared as well as you. Well, acutally I think you only took it half literal. I provided Dean and others that cant answer what is the benefit of 110+ plus basking an opportunity to hang themselvs. What I didnt account for is that some would actually take my temp statement seriously. A loaded question that backfired right in my face. Lessons learned
More later.

This might be where an education is in order...much akin to what Neal said yesterday...you know, baby steps and all. It might be my mistake to presume that if you have a 120* basking spot...it's going to add to the ambient temps, as well. One foot away from that basking spot, it maybe 100*...two feet away 90*...because we've all been discussing this for so long, I might have started to err towards the side that it should be common knowledge for all. I NEVER said the entire environment should be 120, but I did say their should be no dry hides! I should point out that I have 2 humid hides and 1 dry hide in my enclosure...so I realize this could have cut down the 'hostility' had I pointed that out at the start of this thread...even though I had brought it to light months ago...'months ago' doesn't do today's newbies much good...unless, like Tom, they have such a quest for knowledge that they go back and read EVERY single post in the FORUM...not feasible. More later!

 

[gummybearpoop]

We know that torts can SURVIVE harsh weather, but that doesn't mean its good for them.

Maybe it is good for them. Animals who are subjected to harsh extremes tend to be hardier. What doesn't kill'em only makes them stronger. People in NY get a heat wave of 100 degrees and start dying. While lot of people in Phoenix hike or play soccer in 120 degree heat..then just have a beer when finished. haha

Anyways, back on topic. I am not a big fan of 115 degree spotlights unless I have some uromastyx or desert iguanas.

I have seen active baby desert tortoises. Temps are FAR less than 110.
Maybe some people should come looking for animals in the desert to see what you can find in the summertime around noon. Maybe people may understand why you mostly find animals at night, dusk, and dawn in the summer.

People say their sulcatas come out and are active in 110 degree heat. I am sure they do! Maybe it is your presence and them know that you feed them and pet them. These animals know you are the hands that feed them. When I volunteered at the zoo, the galaps/aldabras would come and eat in 115 degree heat. But before they saw me, they were hiding in the shade or mud wallows.

Ok, gotta go. Hiking. Looking for animals. Note to self: spend more time outside and less time typing on forums. haha

 

[Balboa]

Holy poop look at all the fun I missed.... don't check the board one day and you guys have the shootout at the ok corral on me.... well maybe it was a good thing to sit out on.

I'd like to reiterate a few points that were brought up.

1. How temps are measured- this is frequently left out of the "guides" and advice, and much confusion stems from it.

2. What is the "ideal" core temp. Off the top of my head 86-88 is optimal for tort digestion, considerably lower than warmblooded animals. If this is incorrect I apologize, but I know I've seen that a few times.

3. Torts aren't rocks, and torts aren't air. Tom's stating a light set for 80 degrees inside is not like the sun outside is incorrect IMO. Different material react to thermal energy differently, some materials will heat up, while others will stay cool. A torts shell is a very interesting thing, and I've found alot of evidence that points to thermoregulation occuring internally, in the shell. The shell itself has insulating properties and is a poor conductor of heat while the keratin is highly absorptive. My experiments that Paul alluded to mimic this condition with black painted wood.

As some of you may recall my wood actually caught fire with the basking lights set up to heat the basking tile to 100+ degrees.

What prevents the torts shell from reaching those kind of levels is the flowing blood through the carapace. It APPEARS that torts can regulate the flow of blood through their carapace to thermoregulate. There however has to be a limit to how quickly thermal energy can be drawn to the core.

I THINK the point Paul is poorly trying to get at, is that IF the basking light is intense enough the keratin will heat faster than the heat can be drawn to the core, which will undoubtably cause damage to the carapace. Bone begins to suffer damage at 122 degrees fahrenheit. THIS TELLS ME 120 DEGREE BASKS ARE RIGHT OUT. At the very least this will drive off the moisture content in the keratin, causing it to become overly stiff, a POSSIBLE cause of pyramiding. It may be a wiser move to ensure ambient temps are optimal and utilize slightly "cooler" basking temperatures.

I have envisioned a viscious cycle involving basking lights. An ill tort will want to bask more, their natural response to not feeling well. Unfortunatly, the intensely dry micro-climate created by the basking light, coupled with the intensity of the basking light creates a jerky maker. At the least this dehydrates the tort and possibly worse causes tissue damage that the tort must heal from, further driving their feeling ill, so they want to bask even more. Now we have a pyramided, dehydrated tort that can't process their food correctly (not enough fluids) which will in turn lead to MBD and stones as not enough calcium and other nutrients will be coming in to replace the damaged material in the carapace, nor enough water to flush the waste etc..

How do we get around this? The Doc is right, they need to be able to "run a fever" at times. We need to find the point where they can heat up quickly, but no faster than they can absorb the heat, and humidity at that spot needs to be very high.