why basking spot 115 degrees?

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exoticsdr

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onarock said:
Man, Doc, sorry that you took my sarcasitc remark 20 somehting post ago as a literal statement. I thought you sussed it out pretty well according to your post. Don't think others fared as well as you. Well, acutally I think you only took it half literal. I provided Dean and others that cant answer what is the benefit of 110+ plus basking an opportunity to hang themselvs. What I didnt account for is that some would actually take my temp statement seriously. A loaded question that backfired right in my face. Lessons learned
More later.

Rock, again..I stand by my previous statement..I enjoy your postings and though I'm sure we disagree on many things both tortoise and non-tort related,,,,,you always make me think outside my normal box and I appreciate that.



squamata said:
exoticsdr said:
I'm curious...who believes that ambient air temperatures have anything to do with this?

tom does

I'm pretty confident that Tom can and will speak for himself and doesn't need or want you to.
 

Saloli

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Tom said:
Saloli, this is what I used to say back in the old days, but here's the problem: These torts have natural ranges made up of hundreds or thousands of square miles and containing literally millions of micro habitats. Which microhabitat should we mimic? Should we attempt to mimic the harsh seasonal variations too? We know that torts can SURVIVE harsh weather, but that doesn't mean its good for them. What we are left with is trying to figure out what works and what doesn't in the real world, here at home, in our enclosures. That is what this thread is all about. What works the best.

That microenviroments used are known for a large number of the more common tortoise species mainly because studies have been done in order to help protect them. Those are what I meant when I said mimic. For example leaf litter on the forest floor in a closed canopy terra firme forest in Brazil is relatively easy to do for a yellow foot. or the mediterranian scrub for a herman's with it's dense areas of plant cover and it's open areas. though the Sahal for the Salcutas is a bit harder to replicate because of the size of the animals involved but it can be done. Redfoots are from tropical humid grassland and subtropical semi arid grassland or in a few cases open canopy forest (Bana scrub and Campina) depending on the origin of the individuals or their ancsestors. My point being that of all the microenvironments/ microhabitats in an area the tortoises and turtles only use a few of those availabe. If they weren't selective of the microenvironment they would be evenly distributed over the landscape. There are odd exceptions like Galapagos and Aldabra which are fairly even in most areas of the islands they inhabbit from what i understand.
 

onarock

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Good question Doc...was kinda hoping you might be able to shed some light on this. There has been references to using temp guns to measure the temp of a tortoise shell and this is the be all end all of measuring a tortoises temp. I might ad that just because you are able to read the temp of a tortoise shell doesnt mean its a reflection of a tortoises core temp. My females lay in the afternoon and next time they lay I'm going to measure the temp of the eggs as they are dropping. Dont know what that will prove, but it might give a better understang of core temp.

exoticsdr said:
So, now the real question is, what optimum temp does the tortoise need to achieve to effectively digest it's food and keep it's immune system effective also? Normal body temps for mammals fall in the range of 99-103 and birds upward of 104-105. What is so unbelievable that a tortoise needs to reach at least as high as a bird to properly digest it's food and provide adequate immune response to fight off disease?



How can I put this nicely....:D:D:D:D:D:D I'm not surprised:D:D:D:D

kbaker said:
I am late on this thread, but I skimmed through it.

From what I saw, Tom is the closest to having a clue.



Just hope we are all equal in the eyes of the law...:D;):):p;):D:):D:D

emysemys said:
If this thread is to continue, then:

Their are good rules to follow when having a debate.


1. People can be very annoying when having discussions when they don't follow good rules
2. It's wrong to name calls.
3. Your goal should be to always be thorough and completely accurate. In business and politics you should not exaggerate or over simplify.
4. We should always treat each other with respect. Even those people we think are doing the country harm.
5. You should not say someone is "bad" just because they disagree with you.
6. You have to realize when it is more important to maintain the relationship, than get to truth.
7. You should try to stay on one topic at a time.
8. If you believe a different subject mater is related, and you want to change the subject to something else, you need to explain why.
9. People should only be blamed for things they have control over.
10. People should talk in specifics, not generalities. (somewhere else).
11. You should not lie, or misrepresent the facts.
12. Accusing your opponent of everything the opponent accuses you of so that neutral people who don't understand the game will assume that truth must lie somewhere in between, when in fact w there is nothing to back up your accusation, is not good (OSC).
13. Accuse the opponent of being unscientific, ignorant, or stupid ("grasp of Statistics is non-existent"), not because you actually understand science or statistics or anything else yourself, but because you just know that your team always has the facts on their side, regardless of whether you can actually prove it; so anti-establishment "evidence" must all be an ignorant misunderstanding, is not good (OSC).
14. You should not speak of your opponent with smug condescension.
15. You should not name call or attack people personally.
16. Sarcasm has no place in a debate!



:D:D;):):rolleyes:;):D Makes things interesting...dont it?

Tom said:
I had no idea about Yvonne starting this thread and putting your name on it, but the same thing happened to me the other day and I have no idea who did it. It started with my reply to one of Isa's threads about Canada's laws.



Wait for it ...... 85. If only we were raising rocks. We are not and that statement for tortoises is ...wait for it... not true :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D



Tom said:
Your point 1. Isnt an 85-90 degree basking spot an 85-90 degree basking spot? What does the environment around have to do with that particular spot. If its 85 degrees at my house and the mountain top above my house is 10 degrees its still 85 at my house. You state yourself that it was 67 degrees at your house but your tortoise carapace was 104.1. What I am saying is cant tortoises thermoregulate using basking lamps as well? If its 67 degrees in your house and you provide them with a 90-95 degree basking spot wont their shells reflect similar findings to your outdoor reference? [End Quote]

This is physics Paul. Yes an 85-90 degree basking spot is an 85-90 degree basking spot. And indoors it can ONLY get a tort up to 85-90 degrees. And THAT'S the problem. They want/need to be 100+. Outdoors with an AMBIENT 85-90 they can get MUCH warmer than ambient by sitting in the sun. (Note Scooter at 104.1 on a 67 degree day.) Indoors, if we set the basking temp to 90, they can't get any warmer than 90. Is this making sense? If you put a brick in the sun on an 80 degree day anywhere in the world it will heat up to well over 100+. At my place on a windless day, I'd speculate I could get that brick into the o 150's. Conversely, if you put that same brick under an indoor incandescent light where the basking temp is set to 85, it will heat up to........ wait for it........ 85!!!



emysemys said:
I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.

Tom, that's probably what happened to your post on Isa's thread too. The computer just automatically puts the oldest time/date post as the first one, and there's no way for us to put a more current post (one of the mods) as the first one.

No problem Yvvone. I figured it must be something like that. Thanks for the explanation. It does sort of cast a different light on things as far as this thread and the OP.







You know in our phone conversations you state that you have only hatched 4 or so tortoises and that your hatchlings that you have aquired over the last year are the ones that you really only have experience with. Dont know what to make about that..:D:D:D:D:D:D

In my experience, hatchlings can overheat in a matter of minutes not hours. It actually happens really fast. There is a reason why most if not all the breeders I know dont provide basking lights....just my opinion


Tom said:
onarock said:
Your point 2. "A tortoises behavior ought to be an indication of whether or not your temps are correct. If they are always directly under the light or always on the hot side and seldom move to the cool side of the enclosure, it should indicate that things are too cool." This is not true especially for hatchlings. I have seen first hand account both indoors and out where hatchlings have begun to fail within minutes of being exposed to intense heat, basically freezing them right where they sit.

"At a basking temp of 85-90 they will most often just sit right under the light, all the time, as they never reach their desired temp. THIS is what will really dry them out." Are you stating that tortoises cant thermoregulate indoors? A forum member did a study using blocks of wood and a 75 watt spot lamp with ambient temps in the 60's and recorded surface temps well over 100 and a core temp of 90+ and thats wood. I know torts arent wood.

"...basically freezing them right where they sit?" Isn't that called basking? They find a warm spot and sit there and enjoy it. I do the same thing sometimes. What makes you think they are "failing"? I've raised dozens of hatchlings myself and participated in the raising of hundreds, through friends, family, co-workers, customers and now TFO members for the last year or more. I have never heard of a single tortoise "failing" due to a basking light being 110 degrees or due to being outside in the sun. From the day they hatch, if they get too warm, they move to a cooler area or shade.

As far as the experiments with wood and the 75 watt light, how does that help your point? If I move a 75 watt lamp close enough I can get a basking spot of 180 degrees or more. I have no doubt I could start a fire with a 75 watt basking light, if I moved it close enough. What does that have to do with anything? I use everything from 35 watt -160 watt bulbs all year long indoors and every single basking spot must be repeatedly checked for the right temps. I set them all to a little over 100 at tortoise level. When the room heats up a few degrees in summer, they spend less time under them and usually move slightly to the side instead of directly under them. Sounds to me like the 75 watt bulb was doing what it is supposed to. If surface temps were getting too hot, the fixture would need to be adjusted higher or switch to a smaller wattage bulb or perhaps a flood instead of a spot. The wattage and bulb type are not important, the actual basking temp is. Of course, what Kevin said about small spots and larger tortoises certainly applies. Again with the caveat: I'm not talking about redfoots, most Testudo sp., or other "forest" tortoises.

Jacqui said:
Tom said:
I've always been respectful, courteous, and careful, even when passionately pleading my case. That's my perception and intention, anyway. I accept that your perception is different.
I will add to this comment, there have been times in the past where I would NOT say that is true about you. Just about everybody crosses that line at sometime.





Yes, Ma'am. Point taken.








thanks for sharing kyryah. the readers here need to see an alternateve view.


kyryah said:
I don't use super hot basking areas myself. My enclosures for my babies run from 80* ambient (Cherryhead) to 95* on the hot side, 80* on the cool side (Sulcata babies.)

It has been a couple of years since I had larger Sulcatas, so I will tell you what I have experienced with my Russians.

During the summer, they are outside 24/7. First thing in the morning, they bask for about an hour, from 9-10 am. They rarely come out of their burrows before 9 AM. Then they graze for about an hour. Once temps hit about 80* F, they all go back to the shade, and remain there the majority of the day. In the afternoon, when it starts to cool down, and the sun drops in the sky a bit, they come out and graze for another hour or two. By 6-7 PM, they are starting to tuck themselves in for the night, even though it doesn't get dark until 10.

The ONLY time I see them out in the direct sunlight during the hottest part of the day is if I have the sprinkler on. (This is true for my Redfoots and Hingebacks as well.)

I have taken a bit more "moderate" approach to the humidity issue. My enclosures are humid, but not SUPER humid. They range from 60% to 80%. I have been misting my babies twice a day, and soaking very little, actually. I do however observe each and every one of the babies "self-soaking" in the water dish daily.

My Cherryhead's enclosure is on the higher end of the humidity scale - 80%. His enclosure is a constant 80*. There have been days when I have not misted at all, yet he has a humid hide. This baby is growing as perfect as I could ever hope for. He looks amazing, I am EXTREMELY proud of him.

My little Greek's enclosure is on the lower end of the humidity spectrum. It is about 60%. In the beginning I was raising her on a dry substrate, and misting twice daily. She began to develop pyramiding. I moved her from the open top sweater box into an aquarium, upped the humidity, and gave her a humid hide. She exhibits pyramiding along her vertebral scutes but the rest of her is smooth. I have been misting more and I am hoping she will continue to smooth out. I feel like I failed with her.

My baby Sulcatas have a humid hide that is 99% humidity and 95* inside. The cool side of the enclosure is 80* and ambient humidity is 70%. They spend most of the day in the hide, except when eating or self-soaking in the water dish (which they do, a LOT. They are TOTAL water babies, especially the darker of the two.) There is a heat source over the water dish so it remains warm all the time. I mist them twice daily, morning and night. I have not had them long, but they exhibit new growth and it is coming in smooth.

My Sri Lankan star has a humid hide and her warmest temp is 90*. She also self-soaks and I mist twice daily. Just a few days ago I posted pictures of how smooth she is. I am EXTREMELY proud of her new growth, and also EXTREMELY nervous that I am going to "screw her up."

I just received a little Leopard today. His enclosure and treatment will 100% mimic the Sulcata hatchlings.

I wish I had pictures to back this last up - in 1992 I was given my first tortoise, a Gopher tortoise that was taken out of its habitat and brought back to Michigan. He was 3" long at the time. I raised him in an aquarium that was 90* on the warm side and 80* on the cool. I used plain old yard dirt for substrate and planted grass directly in it. His hide was one of those long terra cotta wine chillers. I would take it out every couple of days and soak it in warm water, and I also misted him once every day or so.

I had him for ten years. He grew to be 10" and 19lbs. One night in 2002, a predator broke into his outdoor enclosure and killed him. I cried, HARD. I was so devastated, and I still am. I miss my Gomer terribly.

When Gomer died, he was just as smooth as any wild counter part I have ever seen. I lost all of my photos of him (and my beloved Lab, Sammy, another story) in a house fire. But I swear on everything I hold holy that what I am saying is the truth.

So, that is MY take on "moderation." I am going to continue working with my hatchlings and continue learning.



;);););)Just want to note that this is 100% pure speculation. And that is a fact :D:D:D;););)



Yes they are desert animals, but the babies stay hidden in burrows, root balls and leaf litter, where it is HUMID. Babies don't just walk around out in the open in the hot dry air in the wild. They'd get eaten if they did. Once they get to around 6-8" humidity and moisture is much less critical.










On topic and you make a good point. Sorry I didnt give you any smileys Mick... I know you dont need it sugar coated.

Az tortoise compound said:
My final thoughts on the initial question:

(previously posted and ignored due to bickering)

The benefit of a tortoise having the choice of spending time where it's 110* is he can use it if it chooses to. In my mind, as long as a gradient is provided our animals will travel where they want. I put my faith in the animals instinct (mother nature) knowing more than we do.



Can anyone tell me the downside of having the option?????
Might my little tortoise become frozen with indecision and cook? NO.
 

onarock

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I agree Jacqui and moreover I would say that an indoor enclosure is the exact opposite of what a tortoise would expect in the wild. In the typical indoor enclosure a tort is encouraged to seek out the heat or bask. Outdoors torts seek shade or cover. Inside goes against their natural instincs. Couple that with what I believe to be a tortoises visual preference and it becomes even more confusing. Outside torts equate bright light with the sun or heat and inside its not allways like that. Some people provide lighting in their enclosures that produce no heat and some people provide heat that produces no light. They associate darker, shrubby, shaded ares with cold or cooler temps and this is also not true indoors. Some heat the humid hide. All in all I think that we are just confusing the heck out of our shelled freinds.

Jacqui said:
exoticsdr said:
... the tort will self regulate if given an area in their habitat that they are allowed to do so.

My point was that we often don't give them enough room to do the self regulation and there lies the danger with saying they need such a high temp, in my opinion.



good post Norm. We all should go and do some real herpin out in the desert. You and squamata have some great first hand experience as far as the behavior of reptiles is concerned. This type of experince should not be underestimated and concidered valuable.

gummybearpoop said:
Tom said:
We know that torts can SURVIVE harsh weather, but that doesn't mean its good for them.

Maybe it is good for them. Animals who are subjected to harsh extremes tend to be hardier. What doesn't kill'em only makes them stronger. People in NY get a heat wave of 100 degrees and start dying. While lot of people in Phoenix hike or play soccer in 120 degree heat..then just have a beer when finished. haha

Anyways, back on topic. I am not a big fan of 115 degree spotlights unless I have some uromastyx or desert iguanas.

I have seen active baby desert tortoises. Temps are FAR less than 110.
Maybe some people should come looking for animals in the desert to see what you can find in the summertime around noon. Maybe people may understand why you mostly find animals at night, dusk, and dawn in the summer.

People say their sulcatas come out and are active in 110 degree heat. I am sure they do! Maybe it is your presence and them know that you feed them and pet them. These animals know you are the hands that feed them. When I volunteered at the zoo, the galaps/aldabras would come and eat in 115 degree heat. But before they saw me, they were hiding in the shade or mud wallows.

Ok, gotta go. Hiking. Looking for animals. Note to self: spend more time outside and less time typing on forums. haha



NAIL MEET HAMMER. GREAT POST


Balboa said:
Holy poop look at all the fun I missed.... don't check the board one day and you guys have the shootout at the ok corral on me.... well maybe it was a good thing to sit out on.

I'd like to reiterate a few points that were brought up.

1. How temps are measured- this is frequently left out of the "guides" and advice, and much confusion stems from it.

2. What is the "ideal" core temp. Off the top of my head 86-88 is optimal for tort digestion, considerably lower than warmblooded animals. If this is incorrect I apologize, but I know I've seen that a few times.

3. Torts aren't rocks, and torts aren't air. Tom's stating a light set for 80 degrees inside is not like the sun outside is incorrect IMO. Different material react to thermal energy differently, some materials will heat up, while others will stay cool. A torts shell is a very interesting thing, and I've found alot of evidence that points to thermoregulation occuring internally, in the shell. The shell itself has insulating properties and is a poor conductor of heat while the keratin is highly absorptive. My experiments that Paul alluded to mimic this condition with black painted wood.

As some of you may recall my wood actually caught fire with the basking lights set up to heat the basking tile to 100+ degrees.

What prevents the torts shell from reaching those kind of levels is the flowing blood through the carapace. It APPEARS that torts can regulate the flow of blood through their carapace to thermoregulate. There however has to be a limit to how quickly thermal energy can be drawn to the core.

I THINK the point Paul is poorly trying to get at, is that IF the basking light is intense enough the keratin will heat faster than the heat can be drawn to the core, which will undoubtably cause damage to the carapace. Bone begins to suffer damage at 122 degrees fahrenheit. THIS TELLS ME 120 DEGREE BASKS ARE RIGHT OUT. At the very least this will drive off the moisture content in the keratin, causing it to become overly stiff, a POSSIBLE cause of pyramiding. It may be a wiser move to ensure ambient temps are optimal and utilize slightly "cooler" basking temperatures.

I have envisioned a viscious cycle involving basking lights. An ill tort will want to bask more, their natural response to not feeling well. Unfortunatly, the intensely dry micro-climate created by the basking light, coupled with the intensity of the basking light creates a jerky maker. At the least this dehydrates the tort and possibly worse causes tissue damage that the tort must heal from, further driving their feeling ill, so they want to bask even more. Now we have a pyramided, dehydrated tort that can't process their food correctly (not enough fluids) which will in turn lead to MBD and stones as not enough calcium and other nutrients will be coming in to replace the damaged material in the carapace, nor enough water to flush the waste etc..

How do we get around this? The Doc is right, they need to be able to "run a fever" at times. We need to find the point where they can heat up quickly, but no faster than they can absorb the heat, and humidity at that spot needs to be very high.



I agree... What do you want to know?...:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

DeanS said:
This might be where an education is in order...
 

Saloli

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tortoises like any vertebrate (i don't remember if arthropods do it) can increase or decease blood flow to the skin (or in this case the scutes which cover the skin) to increase or decrease core temperatures. simply put the blood gets warmed by the infrared and other forms of radiation (visible u.v.) while in the capilaries in the skin. then the blood is circulated back to the heart then to the lungs then back to the heart and back out to the body tissues. They resrict the heat lost by restricting the blood flow to the capilaries in the skin. though if you want to know core temps for tortoises (with the exception of hinge backs or possibly pancakes) a cloacal temp using a rectal thermometer (i learned this from one of my professors) will give you the best reading without using either implantable thermometers or the kind that can be swallowed.
 

onarock

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Right... I think Balboa put it the best when he stated that the keratin would heat faster than the torts ability to remove that heat, thus damaging the keratin. A point that I agree with. I think the point to this thread is that if there is no clear benefit to extremely hot basking temps, why provide them. I have thought for sometime now that extremely hot basking temps causes damage to the shell, and to fight off the effects of such we have to provide un-natural extremely high humidity to counter act it. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I find it interesting that those who promote the "swamp" theory use the behavior of hatchling tortoises in the wild to back their theory and then go on to tell us that No One Has Ever Studied Hatchlings In The Wild. That care sheet that Dean refers to as FACT only has 1 Fact in it and its, No one has ever studied hatchlings in the wild (sulcata and leopard)
wait, wait :D:D:D:D:D;);););):):):):)

Saloli said:
tortoises like any vertebrate (i don't remember if arthropods do it) can increase or decease blood flow to the skin (or in this case the scutes which cover the skin) to increase or decrease core temperatures. simply put the blood gets warmed by the infrared and other forms of radiation (visible u.v.) while in the capilaries in the skin. then the blood is circulated back to the heart then to the lungs then back to the heart and back out to the body tissues. They resrict the heat lost by restricting the blood flow to the capilaries in the skin. though if you want to know core temps for tortoises (with the exception of hinge backs or possibly pancakes) a cloacal temp using a rectal thermometer (i learned this from one of my professors) will give you the best reading without using either implantable thermometers or the kind that can be swallowed.
 

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onarock said:
I find it interesting that those who promote the "swamp" theory use the behavior of hatchling tortoises in the wild to back their theory and then go on to tell us that No One Has Ever Studied Hatchlings In The Wild. That care sheet that Dean refers to as FACT only has 1 Fact in it and its, No one has ever studied hatchlings in the wild (sulcata and leopard)
wait, wait :D:D:D:D:D;);););):):):):)

Man, things must be sloooooooooooooooooooooow on the islands. I NEVER stated anything wild hatchlings do as fact! They are theories...presumptions, if you will! What have you given this community...OH! That's right! NOTHING! You simply pick a side and go with them for a day or two,...until you **** them off! Or until they disregard you for the vestige you are!
 

onarock

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Things must be even slower right in your neighborhood. My point is you stated that care sheet as fact. The fact is, it is not. And, you use your assumption of hatchling behavior to back it. Your backing non fact with speculation. What have I given the board.... How about origonal thought. People have stated right here and on many other threads that that I inspire thought. What have you done, but plagairize others words, set yourself apart from the board and belittle thse who dont have as much experience as you, in your eyes? The only ones I have pissed off are the admirers.

DeanS said:
onarock said:
I find it interesting that those who promote the "swamp" theory use the behavior of hatchling tortoises in the wild to back their theory and then go on to tell us that No One Has Ever Studied Hatchlings In The Wild. That care sheet that Dean refers to as FACT only has 1 Fact in it and its, No one has ever studied hatchlings in the wild (sulcata and leopard)
wait, wait :D:D:D:D:D;);););):):):):)

Man, things must be sloooooooooooooooooooooow on the islands. I NEVER stated anything wild hatchlings do as fact! They are theories...presumptions, if you will! What have you given this community...OH! That's right! NOTHING! You simply pick a side and go with them for a day or two,...until you **** them off! Or until they disregard you for the vestige you are!
 

DeanS

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onarock said:
Things must be even slower right in your neighborhood. My point is you stated that care sheet as fact. The fact is, it is not. And, you use your assumption of hatchling behavior to back it. Your backing non fact with speculation. What have I given the board.... How about origonal thought. People have stated right here and on many other threads that that I inspire thought. What have you done, but plagairize others words, set yourself apart from the board and belittle thse who dont have as much experience as you, in your eyes? The only ones I have pissed off are the admirers.

DeanS said:
onarock said:
I find it interesting that those who promote the "swamp" theory use the behavior of hatchling tortoises in the wild to back their theory and then go on to tell us that No One Has Ever Studied Hatchlings In The Wild. That care sheet that Dean refers to as FACT only has 1 Fact in it and its, No one has ever studied hatchlings in the wild (sulcata and leopard)
wait, wait :D:D:D:D:D;);););):):):):)

Man, things must be sloooooooooooooooooooooow on the islands. I NEVER stated anything wild hatchlings do as fact! They are theories...presumptions, if you will! What have you given this community...OH! That's right! NOTHING! You simply pick a side and go with them for a day or two,...until you **** them off! Or until they disregard you for the vestige you are!

Nothing you say makes any sense! I assume NOTHING! There is a difference between 'assumption' and 'presumption'...and who have I plagiarized? Tom? He and I were doing the same thing before I came to this Forum and longer yet before I met him. I've belittled noone! I don't consider myself better than anyone else! When I jumped on Neal's 'dry hide' post...it was in jest! I don't slam anyone's theories...unless they're senseless (you can take that personally if you wish)!

Mods...I move that onarock changes his screen name to underarock!
 

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DeanS said:
onarock said:
Things must be even slower right in your neighborhood. My point is you stated that care sheet as fact. The fact is, it is not. And, you use your assumption of hatchling behavior to back it. Your backing non fact with speculation. What have I given the board.... How about origonal thought. People have stated right here and on many other threads that that I inspire thought. What have you done, but plagairize others words, set yourself apart from the board and belittle thse who dont have as much experience as you, in your eyes? The only ones I have pissed off are the admirers.

DeanS said:
onarock said:
I find it interesting that those who promote the "swamp" theory use the behavior of hatchling tortoises in the wild to back their theory and then go on to tell us that No One Has Ever Studied Hatchlings In The Wild. That care sheet that Dean refers to as FACT only has 1 Fact in it and its, No one has ever studied hatchlings in the wild (sulcata and leopard)
wait, wait :D:D:D:D:D;);););):):):):)

Man, things must be sloooooooooooooooooooooow on the islands. I NEVER stated anything wild hatchlings do as fact! They are theories...presumptions, if you will! What have you given this community...OH! That's right! NOTHING! You simply pick a side and go with them for a day or two,...until you **** them off! Or until they disregard you for the vestige you are!

Nothing you say makes any sense! I assume NOTHING! There is a difference between 'assumption' and 'presumption'...and who have I plagiarized? Tom? He and I were doing the same thing before I came to this Forum and longer yet before I met him. I've belittled noone! I don't consider myself better than anyone else! When I jumped on Neal's 'dry hide' post...it was in jest! I don't slam anyone's theories...unless they're senseless (you can take that personally if you wish)!

Mods...I move that onarock changes his screen name to underarock!

You know, I really don't know where to start with your comments, but I will just summarize, your crossing the line here. Go back and read the post Yvonne did about how to debate. Name calling is not allowed and your crossing that line.
 
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