Scientific Inferences/Hypotheses on Pyramiding

[pzowt]

Everyone says that calcium is an imperative part of any tortoise's diet, right? And it should prevent pyramiding (alongside sufficient vitamin D3/UVB and fibre), right?
But if we know (or at least just suspect) that these should create smooth-shelled chelonians indefinitely (depending on the species' place of origin), why aren't ALL our tortoises smooth??

Assuming the not-so-smooth tortoise owners know and understand the exact requirements (that experts/professionals/enthusiast provide), why do some tortoises present pyramidal growth?

What my hypothesis is is that we have something wrong in our understanding of tortoise chemistry. I'm thinking along the lines of the calcium absorption.

From my understanding of Tom's past experiments, moisture has a significant impact on the tortoise's overall shell-shape (I'm pretty much accepting this as gospel haha). But any who...

To be exact on my hypothesis, I believe we provide too much calcium! Knowing that calcium is water-soluble, I'm inferring that when we provide too much calcium in our tortoise's diet, the added moisture and baths will provide enough water to flush out any excess calcium (which I am going to assume causes pyramiding).

I may be wrong, however. (I'm no biochem specialist haha). Where my hypothesis falls is when UVB and Vitamin D3 is introduced into the body. A good owner knows to provide enough light/supplements so that calcium build-up in the system won't hurt...

I'm very curious to find an answer! Anyone have any suggestions or theories or anything??

ALSO! (I'm starting to think out loud aha ) In the wild, tortoises may not find sufficient calcium in their environment...but they're almost always smooth-shelled. They'll undoubtedly get good amounts of UVB/D3, but get varying levels of calcium... Hmm.

Any added information???
Please don't be afraid to hypothesize or provide personal experiences!

 

[ascott]

Ok, you asked...

I believe that calcium is only a part of the cycle of the tortoise (which also includes his shell)...I think we as humans try to out think everything...just what we do...I believe that if we would stand back and observe a tortoise in the wild--we would see a tort that is ever versatile...ever searching for the next bite (exercising and sun exposure), seeking out shade (resting in the fresh air, shell having opportunity to dry and be healthy so no funky stuff growing), retreating to a darker cooler place (rest and mild humidity and shelter from night predators)...

Now, I do not believe that we will ever ever ever be able to completely understand the food benefits from when they are out for the entire day (and I don't mean out in the sun, but rather out time from when they wake to set out for their day and when they retreat for the night) taking a bite or two from about a hundred different plants....how much calcium do they get? well, I know that arid species are usually surrounded by dry/dryer conditions which means dry soil plants have a high calcium content in comparison to wet/constantly wetter environments which do not have high calcium contents...so they absolutely have to be designed in different ways based on where they live, the food available and the quantity of food required to allow their body to perform at its peak....

Humidity does play a role, no doubt---however, I do not believe it is a full proof absolute remedy to a healthy bone structure under the scutes...I do believe that it renders the scutes a bit more pliable during growth of the bone...but bone is something that has to develop strong and solid --and in this case the scutes being hydrated enough is key in following the bone structure growth....this is where I believe sun, food, amount of food offered on a daily basis and exercise is so important...I will not ever be able to tell which one is the main catalyst for a smooth healthy shell, and I don't believe there is any single one...so I strive to offer the best I can of each...then let the tort be a tort....

 

[pzowt]

Excellent post, Ascott!
I hadn't taken into thought the specific environments in the different places of origin! Neither did I think about a wild tortoise's presumed day of activity.
hmmm
Let's specify this a little bit by focusing on an african species (since I just obtained a new little leopard! woo!). Leopards seem to pyramid the most (from what I've seen)... and sometimes even in the wild. Their dry environment, according to what you said (which does make sense to me), should have calcium-fortified (haha) plants growing plentifully. This calcium ( and D3) presumably adds to the proper growth of a leopard's bone structure...
(I'm thinking out loud again)
and with your theory of humidity, sufficient moisture seems to provide the flexibility of shell-shape (scutes) during growth.... hmmm
This makes a lot of sense to me now!

---

Now, to summarize a little bit (in equation form!! wooo!!!)

Smooth Shells
= (Calcium + UVB/D3) + Water
= (Growing bones) + Humidity

But what about fibre? Why does fibre come up so often in tortoise care sheets? Or exercise??

 

[ascott]

also, in my own speculation times, I wonder, the arid species would encounter times of extreme times (years of drought in some cases) so to me that would open the door of the possibility of a tort running too dry during the first few years of its life...and if there were drought years the plant growth of course would be affected and therefore the torts would not eat the calcium rich foods normally available (as the plants go dormant for years in arid environments simply to sustain a morsel of root system to lay in wait for rain)...yet the sun is bright and shining which is a part of what a tort needs but if the nutrition is not good and the tort is not eating properly then I would think that the growth would be affected to the bone under the scutes, right? Here is why---if there are periods of not enough calcium intake (not proper food available) then the body will use what it has --which in turn can begin to cause pyramiding due to the body feeding essentially off of itself...now, understand--this is simply what I have thought of and have absolutely no scientific mumbo jumbo to support my way of thinking....only thing I have is connect the dot science...1 plus 1, usually equals 2----

 

[pzowt]

Yes! 1 plus 1 usually equals 2 in connect the dot science haha
That is my scientific method as well

So what you're saying is that pure (un)luck in wild environments would be the cause of any (if at all) shell deformities? That sounds good to me! (Along with the fact that native humans can/do/have released human-induced pyramiding haha)

All seems understandable

Now what's your take on exercise and fibre??

 

[ascott]

Exercise=essential to the mental well being, essential to the development of muscle, essential to the digestive system, essential to eating.

Fibre= essential to digestive system, essential part of alot of tortoise species diet and supplies the bulk to satisfy feeding needs and hunger desires.

 

[dmmj]

Calcium does not provide a huge role in preventing pyramiding besides growing healthy bones and shells. The main reason why a lot of us stress humidity is because is sort of provides a lubricant for the shell, allowing it to grow easier? smoother? I have seen a picture of a leopard in a game type preserve that was pyramided, but not knowing it's history I can't say if it was a wild one or one that maybe was turned in.

 

[Tom]

Everyone says that calcium is an imperative part of any tortoise's diet, right? And it should prevent pyramiding (alongside sufficient vitamin D3/UVB and fibre), right?

The answer to number one is a big "maybe". Depends on species, age, sex, diet, etc...

The answer to number two is a definitive "no". Whether a tortoise gets a calcium supplement every day, or never at all, will have no effect on whether or not it pyramids.

The role of humidity, as well as temps, diet, exercise, calcium and sunshine, will likely be something that we research and learn about for many more years. I'm constantly learning and observing more. Dean and I are running a comparison of two different methods on sulcatas from the same group and age right now. Neal is raising smooth leopards in relatively dry conditions, and has told me that he thinks hydration, and not so much humidity, is a big key. Humidity may simply be a way to stave off dehydration through respiration in an artificial dry environment. Also factor in the habits/adaptations of different species. Sulcatas burrow and stay underground. Leopards hide, but not necessarily underground in damp burrows... Much to consider. Throw in all the varieties of Testudo , and the redfoots, and we can throw the sweeping generalities out the window...

To answer your specific question: No. I don't think we offer too much calcium, and no, I don't think it has anything to do with pyramiding. Many of the worst cases of pyramiding are caused by relatively ignorant keepers, who never even offered a calcium supplement, while offering a very calcium poor diet at the same time. In these cases, it is clear that an excess of calcium supplementation was NOT the cause, or even a contributing factor for horrible pyramiding.

 

[Arizona Sulcata]

The answer to number one is a big "maybe". Depends on species, age, sex, diet, etc...

The answer to number two is a definitive "no". Whether a tortoise gets a calcium supplement every day, or never at all, will have no effect on whether or not it pyramids.

The role of humidity, as well as temps, diet, exercise, calcium and sunshine, will likely be something that we research and learn about for many more years. I'm constantly learning and observing more. Dean and I are running a comparison of two different methods on sulcatas from the same group and age right now. Neal is raising smooth leopards in relatively dry conditions, and has told me that he thinks hydration, and not so much humidity, is a big key. Humidity may simply be a way to stave off dehydration through respiration in an artificial dry environment. Also factor in the habits/adaptations of different species. Sulcatas burrow and stay underground. Leopards hide, but not necessarily underground in damp burrows... Much to consider. Throw in all the varieties of Testudo , and the redfoots, and we can throw the sweeping generalities out the window...

To answer your specific question: No. I don't think we offer too much calcium, and no, I don't think it has anything to do with pyramiding. Many of the worst cases of pyramiding are caused by relatively ignorant keepers, who never even offered a calcium supplement, while offering a very calcium poor diet at the same time. In these cases, it is clear that an excess of calcium supplementation was NOT the cause, or even a contributing factor for horrible pyramiding.

Agree 100%.

 

[ascott]

I'm inferring that when we provide too much calcium in our tortoise's diet, the added moisture and baths will provide enough water to flush out any excess calcium (which I am going to assume causes pyramiding).

I do not believe the point of this comment was saying that giving too much calcium is the cause of pyramiding, but if folks offer calcium supplements in large volumes then wouldn't large amounts of humidity and hydration wash away or decrease the calcium levels by the tort expelling it quicker than if high levels of humidity and hydration where not offered---hence removing the added calcium some folks offer.....which in turn means a potential of calcium deficiency...at least this is what I understood this to mean...

---

Calcium plays a tremendous role in so many factors, in addition to a healthy shell formation...

http://africantortoise.com/leopard.pdf

 

[Jacqui]

Humidity does play a role, no doubt---however, I do not believe it is a full proof absolute remedy to a healthy bone structure under the scutes...I do believe that it renders the scutes a bit more pliable during growth of the bone...but bone is something that has to develop strong and solid --and in this case the scutes being hydrated enough is key in following the bone structure growth....this is where I believe sun, food, amount of food offered on a daily basis and exercise is so important...I will not ever be able to tell which one is the main catalyst for a smooth healthy shell, and I don't believe there is any single one...so I strive to offer the best I can of each...then let the tort be a tort....

Well said!

 

[CactusVinnie]

As said before, increased moisture makes the scutes more flexible and so the contraction pressure decreases-> that logically leads to- at least theoretically- a more smooth appearance.

We should not yet forget that pyramiding is much more than rigid, scorched tough keratine scutes with obvious margins protruding a little... that's maybe due to extreme dryness, especially at very young tortoises... I have such a baby (not my production, received it that way) with such scutes- esp. vertebrals- but he's not pyramided in the sense we are talking about here... that I would say it was from a too dry environment. If I will have the time, I will post exemplifying pictures.

But pyramiding usually consists in serious INCREADSED THICKNESS of scutes due to keratine proliferation, in the detriment of the bony layer, that can't keep the same growth speed. Lots of food without the proper amount of calcium and sun/UVB naturally lead to a good amount of GROWTH, but no harmonious growth; even the "pyramids" are "growth", and need protein to be built.
That's why severe pyramiding cases came together with a collapsed carapace, because the lack of calcium to confere it resistance.
So, lack of calcium is another important feature. I would say the most important factor.

I keep my baby tortoises on the dry side... practically, no soaking, although I spray with a hose for a few seconds every 4-5 days, mainly to make them get out of the hide, to have dinner in the late afternoon. Some times I spray directly on them, but only 1-2 seconds, very fast. They have growth but very good growth, despite the generally dryish conditions.

Here I would say it's the difference: even if increased moisture makes the scutes more flexible and prevent "scute edging" (new term of mine , to be exemplified with pictures), it cannot prevent pyramiding, in the sense we generally define it. It is obvious that only the protein-feed keratine scutes will not became so deformed solely by lack of elasticity!! It is about an abnormal thickness, no matter how strong are the tensions generate by the drying keratine... these maybe exist, but they couldn't stop, neither explain the deficitar growth of the skeletal part-> collapsed carapace. No way! Saying that dry, rigid, brittle keratine lead to difformity is the same with saying that people in arid areas should have deformed fingers!

So, together with my babies example, I think that there can be very dry, but impecable carapace. Better than a flexible one attenuating tensions when water saturated, it is one already dry, made by strong well built keratine! The "overfeeding" situations, if good quality food (low protein, high fiber and calcium) provided, should translate in a good growth spurt as it happens even in habitat in favourable years- even 5 mm wide growth-lines!! Why not growing only by the vertical-> pyramiding? Because the bony layer was also well sustained and it grew in a harmonious way too, resulting in a good gain in dimensions and weigth.

After some research on Spanish Graeca, A. Highfield found that is not much a difference in burrows/hides moisture level compared to the surroundings. Wich was DRY.

The most pyramided species in natural habitat are hermanni- both Eastern and Western. Is it a coincidence to the fact that they are the only Eurotestudo, living in the less arid environments of all Testudo?? Europe, the only areal of T. hermanni, barely has some seasonal semiarid, and mostly not arid at all areas. Hermanni can get overfed some seasons, and they have incredible growth spurts, that cannot be synchronised with a good amount of calcium for a while. Especially if they eat snails (hermanni delicacy), the protein apport is huge, and they may slightly pyramide even in the wild.
As for moisture... the Balkans have enough of it... hermanni NEVER lives far of the forest, in fact it lives only nearby forests, and finding a moister hide in summer is simply resolved by retreating into the forest. Many Ibera do the same when near forest, but they live even in open prairies- Hermanni don't.
So, how the most wild-pyramiding cases occur even in the "moister" Testudo habitat, if humidity matters that much??

I am referring only to Testudo genus, but I suppose it is generally the same for arid/semiarid tortoises too.

 

[Tom]

Fabian, Raise a smooth sulcata or leopard that way and then lets talk. I've never done any Testudo sp. my way, and it appears you've never done any sulcatas or leopards your way. I think this is a case of apples and oranges. My comments above are colored by my frame of reference, which is raising sulcatas and leopards in Southern CA. I read Highfields T. gracea studies with great interest. I think most of the people who have raised both sulcatas and Testudo will agree that in most "mild" climates, that a Testudo sp. raised in a naturalistic outdoor enclosure will seldom pyramid, even if things are relatively dry. This is NOT the case for a sulcata or leopard in a dry climate. My current adults were raised primarily outside, similar to how you describe your set up, and they still pyramided substantially.

 

[mctlong]

Fascinating thread, all very good arguments....hmm.

So much to consider.

 

[Madkins007]

(snip)

But pyramiding usually consists in serious INCREADSED THICKNESS of scutes due to keratine proliferation, in the detriment of the bony layer, that can't keep the same growth speed. (snip)

I have a shell of a red-footed tortoise at home with moderate pyramiding. The scutes are only paper-thick, but the bone has risen up under the mis-shapen scutes.

---

Everyone says that calcium is an imperative part of any tortoise's diet, right? And it should prevent pyramiding (alongside sufficient vitamin D3/UVB and fibre), right? (snip)

To be exact on my hypothesis, I believe we provide too much calcium! Knowing that calcium is water-soluble, I'm inferring that when we provide too much calcium in our tortoise's diet, the added moisture and baths will provide enough water to flush out any excess calcium (which I am going to assume causes pyramiding). (snip)

Offering calcium, by itself or in conjunction with D/3, etc. does not seem to be 'the' answer to pyramiding, and calcium is not water-soluble, although in a properly hydrated tortoise excess calcium is excreted in the feces.

---

The thing that I see pretty consistently in these discussions is that the tortoise shell is a pretty intricate 'dance' coordinating dietary issues, heat/humidity issues, and the balance of food/climate that each species experiences.

I sometimes wonder if there even IS an 'all in one' answer or if it boils down to doing a better job of recognizing and duplicating key elements of the native habitat?

 

[chairman]

Are there any species other than tortoises/turtles that have keratin growing on bone without an intermediate layer or layers of skin/flesh?

My thought is that bone growth issues in shells are directly related to the lack of flesh, blood vessels, etc surrounding the bone.

I don't think we'll know the mechanism until either a tortoise enthusiast hits the powerball and desires to spend a couple million on research, or a big pharmaceutical company can be convinced to spend millions studying pyramiding as a way to develop expensive drugs for human bone growth issues.

 

[Tom]

The thing that I see pretty consistently in these discussions is that the tortoise shell is a pretty intricate 'dance' coordinating dietary issues, heat/humidity issues, and the balance of food/climate that each species experiences.

I sometimes wonder if there even IS an 'all in one' answer or if it boils down to doing a better job of recognizing and duplicating key elements of the native habitat?

With this I agree. It is clear, that there are differences between the species, as far as what is needed for proper growth.

---

I don't think we'll know the mechanism until either a tortoise enthusiast hits the powerball and desires to spend a couple million on research, or a big pharmaceutical company can be convinced to spend millions studying pyramiding as a way to develop expensive drugs for human bone growth issues.

You are so right about this. Sad, but true.

 

[CLMoss]

I find all of this information about pyramiding very interesting. But please help me understand the conflicting information regarding "Star Tortoises." Some believe that it is due to inbreeding & others believe it to be a survival mechanism (the ability to "right" themselves).



Here is something that I read at Star tortoise.net:



2008 RFUK forum post, Andy Highfield (Tortoise Trust, UK) writes that he has seen hundreds of x-rays of pyramided tortoise shells, and he's never seen a pyramided tortoise that didn't have metabolic bone disease. Having said that, he states that this excludes Indian Star tortoises and African starred tortoises where conical scute formation is genetic. He then writes: "Despite the 'pyramid' or tent-like structure of the vertebral scutes on these, the bone density is entirely normal and no lesions are present."



I noticed that my SL Star tortoise (hatchling) had a growth spurt and did see her scutes have become more defined. It worries me because I am/was under the impression that I am doing everything right. Here is a recent photo of her, she is about 7 months when this photo was taken.



Thanks, any feedback is really welcomed.

 

[Tom]

Sorry, I don't know stars.

But it is entirely possible to have pyramids without MBD in any species, depending on how you define MBD.

 

[Madkins007]

Sorry, I don't know stars.

But it is entirely possible to have pyramids without MBD in any species, depending on how you define MBD.

Yeah, that is true- the term MBD is a catch-all phrase for many actual bone-related issues. Even though the most common is Nutritional Secondary Hyper-Parathyroidism (a dietary issue involving the balance of calcium, phosphorous, and vitamin D), there are a lot of other things under the umbrella.

Personally, since it does involve bone, and it indicates a problem of some sort, I would call it MBD, but that does carry a lot of stigma to it.