Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Tom]

You know for a fact these animals were well hydrated? Good diet, with plenty of fiber and not just greens? Approximately what percentage of their substrate was sand?

Nope. I know none of that. I know these tortoise were housed on some percentage of sand and their GI tracts were impacted with sand.

Since you mention them, what brand(s) of CFL are causing these problems. How high above the animals were they mounted, and was it verified that only 1 CFL was used at a time? Not unheard of for someone to put 2 in a double dome to create a larger area without realizing that UVB is additive.

Same thing. Tortoise was under a cfl, and now has photokeratitis. What difference do those details make? None. Some percentage of them are burning tortoise eyes some of the time. If a person doesn't use them, their tortoises eyes cannot be burned by them. This is not "speculation". When this fact is coupled with the fact that they are a comparatively poor UV source, it makes recommending against their use even easier. Seems pretty simple to me, unless a person wants to make it complicated.

Even though the HO bulbs are quite powerful, I've still never seen one burn tortoise eyes.

A small amount of sand can change the texture of the substrate. And it's not a risk in these amounts.

You don't know that, and that is a silly point of contention anyway. Let's say your false speculative statement above is accurate. At what point does it become a risk? One grain of sand in an entire enclosure is not a risk. We can agree on that. What about 100 grains? 1000? Is 10,000 grains a risk? If not, what about 10,001? When does it become a risk in your mind? Do you have a scientific citation to back up your assertion of what point it becomes dangerous. How do you even know it is a risk ever?

or is there risk in everything. Cypress mulch is much more dangerous, can kill without impaction. Bark can cause impaction with significantly less substrate eaten then sand or soil.

Now you are just being argumentative. I've seen lots of sand impaction cases, so I tell people not to use it. I've never seen a single case at any vet clinic or anywhere else of any problem with cypress mulch, or orchid bark. If you have, you should speak up and warn people about what you've seen and what your years of experience with those substrate have taught you.

You create an arbitrary line in the sand as it were. What you do is acceptable risk, and what you don't like is unacceptable. What it really does is impede knowledge. Those that have housed tortoises on substrates or soils containing sand, won't share that here because you put sand on the bad list.

There is nothing arbitrary about dead tortoises with guts full of sand. "I" didn't do anything to make that happen. I am merely reporting what I've seen and learned. It has nothing to do with what I do or do not do. It has to do with what I have seen kill tortoises, and what I have seen not kill tortoises. I am glad that people don't share a dangerous practice that they have somehow or other managed to get away with. That is a GOOD thing for tortoises at large, and is not impeding knowledge in any way. That is called sharing knowledge. What YOU are doing is trying to undermine the sharing of knowledge that is saving, and will continue to save tortoise lives.

If sand, in any quantity, is a fraction as inherently dangerous as you say, you'd be telling everyone that has some amount of sand in their native soil to terraform their outdoor tortoise areas to a 100% sandless substrate. And generally, theres some amount of sand in most peoples soil.

Doesn't matter how much it costs, ask that 6th man if your tortoises life is worth the 'risk'.

When I see tortoises housed outside on dirt that has some sand content in it get impacted and die, then I will speak up about it. So far I have not seen that, and neither have you. Know what you have seen though? You've seen tortoises housed on sand die from sand impaction, haven't you?

Your argument seems to be based on the idea that you think this is just some arbitrary non-sense made up by me. You ignore simple facts that are obvious. Sand sometimes causes impaction. Cfl bulbs sometimes burn tortoise yes. You want to argue about the details about how when and why tortoises are being injured or killed. I want people to use safer alternatives. How long would you like to carry on with this?

 

[Tom]

My thoughts:

He's recommending a setup where humidity and temperature can generally be controlled. So overall his advice is probably helping average tortoise buyers rather than hurting them. My hatchling setups over the past few years have been similar to this concept.

- I have used mostly black tubs (rather than clear) and I don't like the stock lids that come with them, so I slice a rectangle of plywood with a table saw and cut round holes for dome lamps.

- I don't use spot lamps, but I have been trying the CFL UV bulbs because I need a low wattage UV bulb that fits in a dome. I am cautious and check them all with a UV meter first. The problems with these bulbs in the past were caused by quality control issues or defective lots - they aren't ALL bad.

HOWEVER: I have had very mixed results with regards to pyramiding. Often I get both smooth tortoises and bumpy ones in the same setup, even with "easy" species. I've had excellent results with Burmese stars and Pyxis, but very mixed results with Greeks, Redfoots, Chacos, and Indian stars. There is more going on with regards to pyramiding, I have some ideas but no proof of anything.

The sand issue: I've not seen any other thing be so contentious among tortoise keepers. I would very much like to see a thread with excerpts from necropsy reports, which would be useful for convincing people that impaction happens. How often it happens? No idea. I'm not keen on taking risks unless there is a benefit to doing so. For example, I will take risks incubating hot to try and produce females, in species where there is a surplus of males in captivity. Or, I will run trials to try and avoid pyramiding. But I see no obvious benefit to using sand as a substrate.

Steve

Rational and reasonable, as well as intelligent as always. I have a hard time arguing with you because of this. If I'm arguing with you, its usually because I'm wrong.

I agree that some of Chris's advice is good and I said so in sentence number 1 of the post that started this discussion. I also think that he is a good guy and I praise and respect many of the things he is doing. I would be remiss though, if I didn't point out practices that I know to be problematic.

I thank you for chiming in and sharing you experience.

 

[Tom]

veterinary care for reptiles is pretty new.............i read on here, every time i come here, veterinarians know nothing about tortoises??? the cause of death in captive tortoises is almost never diagnosed, even today...not many folks paying $400-$500 for a necropsy on a tortoise they paid a couple hundred bucks for . in the few studies i've read the leading cause is "undetermined"...... mentioned in those studies is the fact that there really aren't any others studies....... i think impaction is a miniscule cause of death when looking at disease, accident, husbandry..... how many folks on here have had a tortoise that died from impaction, verified by an x-ray?

Wrong. No one says that vets know nothing about tortoises. What is said is that "most vets know very little about tortoise care" and they don't. Vets know medicine and surgery. They do NOT learn husbandry in vet school. Vets that know tortoise husbandry are vets that keep and breed tortoises.

I DO pay for necropsy. I'm not guessing about the assertions I make.

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

View attachment 374258

You and your popcorn🥲

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

You and your popcorn🥲

Stop! Im not sharing

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Stop! Im not sharing

Meanie😟

 

[wellington]

View attachment 374258

If you can't share with the whole class, you can't have it either. Now make some for all of us. If you noticed, I'm just watching to. Lol

 

[mark1]

we'll agree to disagree on what is said about vets on here...... where do you get all the dead tortoises? the studies i have seen were done by the folks that someone would pay to do a necropsy for them, and even they are doing them for research and not money...... i've never seen impaction make any list...... one study was a questionnaire sent out, i do remember the number one cause was "undetermined", real high on the list was septicemia, an untreated bacterial infection....... organ failure i'd guess is most common cause, any necropsy i remember reading involved an abnormal liver..... my opinion is diet kills most, predators take out a good percent i'd think, they got a few of mine..... flipped over i'd believe gets a substantial amount......

 

[Fluffy]

Wrong. No one says that vets know nothing about tortoises. What is said is that "most vets know very little about tortoise care" and they don't. Vets know medicine and surgery. They do NOT learn husbandry in vet school. Vets that know tortoise husbandry are vets that keep and breed tortoises.

I DO pay for necropsy. I'm not guessing about the assertions I make.

Tom with all do respect, It has been said on here many many times that vets know nothing about tortoises. It was even said at least once that people should come here first before going to a vet because they don't know anything. Tom lets clear some things up here. I never one time said we should be using or advocating the use of sand. I even said it's not necessary. I find it interesting that people all over the world use sand and we don't always see the same problems you do. I thought it might lead to more knowledge about tortoise husbandry and why some things work and some don't. I thought we might learn something that helps in some other aspect. I don't understand how we got to where we are in this conversation. This used to be a place we could have these conversations but I can see that's not the case anymore.

 

[Tom]

Tom with all do respect, It has been said on here many many times that vets know nothing about tortoises. It was even said at least once that people should come here first before going to a vet because they don't know anything. Tom lets clear some things up here. I never one time said we should be using or advocating the use of sand. I even said it's not necessary. I find it interesting that people all over the world use sand and we don't always see the same problems you do. I thought it might lead to more knowledge about tortoise husbandry and why some things work and some don't. I thought we might learn something that helps in some other aspect. I don't understand how we got to where we are in this conversation. This used to be a place we could have these conversations but I can see that's not the case anymore.

I do not recall seeing anyone say that vets know nothing. I do recall saying and seeing what I quoted. If someone else said that vets know nothing, I'm not responsible for that and don't recall seeing that. I don't know what there is to argue about. We just had a case here last week about a vet administering Ivermectin to a tortoise... again. And that is the part that they are supposed to know. I think most vets know what they are taught in vet school and the vast majority of them have excellent intentions and want to do a good job. They have very difficult job. They have to know everything about every animal. By contrast, human doctors only have to know everything about ONE species. I'll repeat it again: Vets learn about tortoise care from the same source that we all learn it from, and that is why they usually have the same wrong info that everyone else finds about tortoise care.

People all over the world don't report it when their tortoise dies, whether it be from sand impaction or something else. I see it because of my affiliation with so many vets.

What is it you hoped to learn? We all know that sand can be a problem sometimes. We all know that some people get away with it at least some of the time. What is wrong with tis conversation? Mark1 bluntly contradicted me. He does this regularly. I obviously disagree, so I bluntly contradicted him. We do this all the time. Post a thread on Baytril and you will see it again.

Likewise Jaizei likes to come on and tell everyone how they are wrong, yet remains mostly silent when it comes to helping people or stating what is right. That is just his style.

Then you have Steve that comes on and eloquently and coherently shares his experience based knowledge from time to time and makes us all smarter. And he doesn't always agree with me.

You joined the forum a year and half after me. Don't you remember this same sort of arguing when I started saying all the stuff about humidity and pyramiding? Remember all the names I was called and insults slung my way? People said I was all wrong, it wasn't natural, it was going to give them shell rot and respiratory infections... Now go back and watch Chris's video again all these years later. This is no different. When you go against the established mainstream, it makes ripples and waves. People don't like finding out that they've been doing it wrong, and they like it even less when you tell them so. This is nothing new.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I would like to share the point of view of a first time tortoise keeper.

Many sources said that sand was fine to use in low quantities and Chris from garden state tortoises was the one who got me convinced about it. So, I made a mix of 1/2 sand ans 1/2 coco coir. He also had a dry hide area with some hay he loved to dig into.

I fed my Russian tortoise on plastic lids to avoid the substrate from getting into his food. But this was impossible, he would walk over his food, dragging substrate in to the food dish and food out. Also, the hay wouldn't stay in the dry area. Even though I didn't see any mold, I didn't like the risk.

After joining this forum I started to read more and more threads. After being here for a while, I started thinking that maybe I took too big of a risk. I started to monitor my tortoise closely. As soon as I saw some discharge from his nose, I rushed to the store the same day to buy more coco coir. I switched his substrate to 100% coco coir and removed all the hay, even though he had loved it. Now his whole enclosure is humid.

Coco coir seems to get outside his enclosure much easier than sand, when cleaning and stuff. Also his soaking tubs get more dirty now. But I haven't seen the discharge after it and that is enough for me. I like knowing that I am not taking any unnecessary risks. It is that simple for me.

 

[S2G]

Note to self. Do not discuss religion, politics, enclosure size, & sandy mixes...

 

[wellington]

Note to self. Do not discuss religion, politics, enclosure size, & sandy mixes...

I don't understand why you think this hasn't been a discussion? What do you want?

 

[EppsDynasty]

@Tom I feel is 100% right for sharing the dangers of sand, and the risk you run if using it. 1 Thing I did not hear is Size, and how that is part of the equation. A new hatchling Desert Tortoise will be nothing but irritated by the sand. Where a Sudanese Sulcata at 150+ lbs. will not much mind, even if some is eaten. Another thing I find almost ALL people think Desert Tortoises live on sand therefore they eat it.... Not true they eat plants that are growing off the ground and do not eat sand.
I live in the Desert and was in Civil Engineering for years and can tell you Sand has 2 forms Hydrophobic and Hydrophilic which determine how it acts with anything in Nature. I can point this out with this example: Most people have been to the beach and encounter this ..... When you park the car and start the trek to the water you are encountering Hydrophobic Sand ..... Keep walking and when you get close to the water you encounter Hydrophilic Sand .... 1 is very loose and unstable the other (where water is) is very stable and compact. These 2 types of sand CAN NOT be lumped together they are 2 completely different things. In my opinion both are dangerous to Tortoises but obviously present different challenges. I think this attempt to argue sand as 1 Thing is flawed from the start, there are 2 different forms which are completely different.
I will warn EVERYONE I speak with about the dangers of sand, but they get to make their own decisions and live with them.

 

[TammyJ]

Note to self. Do not discuss religion, politics, enclosure size, & sandy mixes...

Hey, it's ok! Yes, we can't discuss religion or politics, but apart from those, this is a Debate section of the forum, so arguments are part of it, and polite disagreement is fine! No personal insults and rude name calling are allowed, of course.

 

[TammyJ]

Hey, it's ok! Yes, we can't discuss religion or politics, but apart from those, this is a Debate section of the forum, so arguments are part of it, and polite disagreement is fine! No personal insults and rude name calling are allowed, of course.

Tammy. You flaming moron.

 

[Fluffy]

I do not recall seeing anyone say that vets know nothing. I do recall saying and seeing what I quoted. If someone else said that vets know nothing, I'm not responsible for that and don't recall seeing that. I don't know what there is to argue about. We just had a case here last week about a vet administering Ivermectin to a tortoise... again. And that is the part that they are supposed to know. I think most vets know what they are taught in vet school and the vast majority of them have excellent intentions and want to do a good job. They have very difficult job. They have to know everything about every animal. By contrast, human doctors only have to know everything about ONE species. I'll repeat it again: Vets learn about tortoise care from the same source that we all learn it from, and that is why they usually have the same wrong info that everyone else finds about tortoise care.

People all over the world don't report it when their tortoise dies, whether it be from sand impaction or something else. I see it because of my affiliation with so many vets.

What is it you hoped to learn? We all know that sand can be a problem sometimes. We all know that some people get away with it at least some of the time. What is wrong with tis conversation? Mark1 bluntly contradicted me. He does this regularly. I obviously disagree, so I bluntly contradicted him. We do this all the time. Post a thread on Baytril and you will see it again.

Likewise Jaizei likes to come on and tell everyone how they are wrong, yet remains mostly silent when it comes to helping people or stating what is right. That is just his style.

Then you have Steve that comes on and eloquently and coherently shares his experience based knowledge from time to time and makes us all smarter. And he doesn't always agree with me.

You joined the forum a year and half after me. Don't you remember this same sort of arguing when I started saying all the stuff about humidity and pyramiding? Remember all the names I was called and insults slung my way? People said I was all wrong, it wasn't natural, it was going to give them shell rot and respiratory infections... Now go back and watch Chris's video again all these years later. This is no different. When you go against the established mainstream, it makes ripples and waves. People don't like finding out that they've been doing it wrong, and they like it even less when you tell them so. This is nothing new.

Tom I don't hold you responsible for what other people say but as much time as you spend on here you have to have read the negative comments about vets. It's exactly why I brought it up a few weeks ago. But it wasn't really the point of this conversation.

I think where we differ is that you seem to believe that nobody can safely raise tortoises on any kind or amount of sand. You also infer that you believe many tortoises die of sand impaction and it gets misdiagnosed or just not reported. I on the other hand believe that there are tortoises being raised on sandy soil without problems. This leads me to wonder why. I think we are missing something in our husbandry that causes these impaction problems. I personally would like to know what it is. I think it could possibly lead to happier healthier animals. It does NOT mean I think we need to advocate using sand. I DO think there is something to be learned here. You do not and that's fine. I just don't want the impression that I'm advocating everyone dump some sand in their enclosure. I just think there is more to it than "it's dangerous so don't". I was just curious as to the why.

 

[Fluffy]

@Tom I feel is 100% right for sharing the dangers of sand, and the risk you run if using it. 1 Thing I did not hear is Size, and how that is part of the equation. A new hatchling Desert Tortoise will be nothing but irritated by the sand. Where a Sudanese Sulcata at 150+ lbs. will not much mind, even if some is eaten. Another thing I find almost ALL people think Desert Tortoises live on sand therefore they eat it.... Not true they eat plants that are growing off the ground and do not eat sand.
I live in the Desert and was in Civil Engineering for years and can tell you Sand has 2 forms Hydrophobic and Hydrophilic which determine how it acts with anything in Nature. I can point this out with this example: Most people have been to the beach and encounter this ..... When you park the car and start the trek to the water you are encountering Hydrophobic Sand ..... Keep walking and when you get close to the water you encounter Hydrophilic Sand .... 1 is very loose and unstable the other (where water is) is very stable and compact. These 2 types of sand CAN NOT be lumped together they are 2 completely different things. In my opinion both are dangerous to Tortoises but obviously present different challenges. I think this attempt to argue sand as 1 Thing is flawed from the start, there are 2 different forms which are completely different.
I will warn EVERYONE I speak with about the dangers of sand, but they get to make their own decisions and live with them.

Very Interesting. I appreciate you adding this to the conversation.

 

[Tom]

Tom I don't hold you responsible for what other people say but as much time as you spend on here you have to have read the negative comments about vets. It's exactly why I brought it up a few weeks ago. But it wasn't really the point of this conversation.

I think where we differ is that you seem to believe that nobody can safely raise tortoises on any kind or amount of sand. You also infer that you believe many tortoises die of sand impaction and it gets misdiagnosed or just not reported. I on the other hand believe that there are tortoises being raised on sandy soil without problems. This leads me to wonder why. I think we are missing something in our husbandry that causes these impaction problems. I personally would like to know what it is. I think it could possibly lead to happier healthier animals. It does NOT mean I think we need to advocate using sand. I DO think there is something to be learned here. You do not and that's fine. I just don't want the impression that I'm advocating everyone dump some sand in their enclosure. I just think there is more to it than "it's dangerous so don't". I was just curious as to the why.

Do you know anyone that smokes? Had any friends or relatives that smoked and yet still lived to a ripe old age? I did and do. Why do some people get lung cancer or emphysema and die, and others don't? Why do some people get away with something that is clearly risky, and other people doing the same thing die? I don't know the answer, but I still think it is good advice to tell people not to smoke. When people tell me they have been smoking for years and they are fine, I quietly wonder just how "fine" they really are.