Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[S2G]

I bit the bait again 😅

I understand and Im on board now. My naturally sandy coastal soil is just fine to keep them on. Moving my naturally sandy soil to an inside enclosure is no beuno. Also amending my rocky soil to be like my naturally sandy soil also gets me sent to the corner.

Im taking my terminology approach just i like i did on "wild" keeping. Theyre no longer kept wild on sandy soil. Theyre kept natural on fine grade dirt

 

[S2G]

Wait… did the horse die from eating sand? 🤔

It doesnt look like sand. Its dark & has corn it...

 

[Tom]

the healthiest turtles i have ever kept in my life are given the "wild"......i went that direction just prior to 2000...they are just protected from what kills them in the "wild", and sand isn't one of them...they are provide best case scenario "wild"..... their hibernacula is as good as they could possibly find in the "wild", they are protected from predators, they are protected from drought, they are protected from starvation, they are semi-protected from disease.... they are not protected from extreme temp fluctuations, they are provided with what they use to deal with them in the wild.... they are not protected from below zero temps, 100+F temps, poisonous plants, rocks, sand.........my opinion is if you can provide best case scenario "wild" you'll raise the healthiest tortoises of your life.....

proof i'm not just trolling this sand thing......wood turtles were digging in new spot they apparently prefer......Tom, your discussion should be appreciated, it causes folks to think.... i do agree, keeping them on sand is not a good idea, and i can't think of any benefit......

I'll start with the negative: The first parts of this post where you explain what you protect them from, all makes great sense. Your temperate species in your temperate climate may be able to deal with temperature extremes, but a turtle dropping into a pond is not the same as an above ground red foot tortoise in Phoenix AZ in summer. There is no way to provide that RF with "what they would use to deal with it in the wild" in that scorching hot climate.

Likewise, allowing access to toxic foreign plants results in tortoise deaths, and I've seen this many times, even if your chelonians survive the opportunity to poison themselves.

Now the good part: You have reminded me of one use of sand that is apparently beneficial and "natural". I'm really not a turtle guy, though I do like turtles and try to learn about them. However, a lot of the annual TTPG attending members ARE turtle keepers and I watch their presentations with great interest. It seems some species of turtles nest on sandy river banks during certain seasons in their wild environments. Some turtle breeders have had success adding a sandy section for egg deposition. I can certainly see the usefulness and utility of that.

 

[mark1]

i kept red footed tortoises and elongated tortoises for 10-15yrs, they act exactly like my eastern box turtles, they lived in my parents backyard june through october in northeast ohio , they thrived outside, as do the r.p.manni i have now, and survived inside for the other 7 months...... they like my manni were/are provided infrared heat lamps outside, they can see them and i can see them, they know what they are, and use them, which was/is important on the colder ends of their time outside....... sand and infrared bulbs, it does get worse.......

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

It doesnt look like sand. Its dark & has corn it...

Who would have thought… Shepards pie

 

[dd33]

I'll start beating my tortoise disease drum again. . . I don't have really have "dirt" on my property, its basically all sand with a small organic layer on top. I find turds daily that have massive amounts of sand in them. The tortoises prefer to eat very short grass young grass shoots and they often pull them out by the roots eating the sand along with them. As mentioned plenty of times in this thread, a healthy tortoise seems to be able to pass sand or rocks like this with ease. It becomes a problem when they are sick and gut motility is down. Pica is also associated with some tortoise diseases so they may actually intentionally eat sand/rocks when sick. We have seen issues with apparent sand impaction in animals that were ultimately diagnosed with TINC.

Not keeping young tortoises on sand seems like sound advice, why risk it. It seems like any substrate though can have horror stories. Our young tortoises would often eat giant pieces of cypress mulch. This photo is mulch from a single stool:

 

[Fluffy]

Why isn't this obvious to you and everyone else? I don't get it.

Just one example Tom. This after I've explained myself multiple times that I'm on your side. Tom you are way to intelligent and articulate to not of known how what you type can be perceived. There were several people here that understood exactly what I meant and I know you did as well. As I said I'm over it. You say you don't care and that's great. I stand by my thoughts that learning the why could help with overall husbandry but it's obvious there is nothing more to discuss here.