Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Just some illustrations for the topic of this thread: https://www.tortoisetrust.com/post/the-tortoise-myth-busters-episode-2 If you omit all the "I'm Andy Highfield!"-bla-bla-bla stuff there are some really remarkable photos and good references. However, the main conclusion I can draw from his post is that tortoise should live outside His assumptions on impaction causes and mitigations when taken as a whole, make me think that using significant amount of sand in the indoors setting is a bad idea. Yet, you can make it safe with a decent amount of space (more than 4x8, I presume).

 

[S2G]

I have never heard about impactions by coco coir and I would gladly read up on some and see pictures. Is it the fibers or the coir itself?

Its not a problem until you bake them under unregulated lights like a gas station hotdog.

Where's the proof gopher tortoises are just fine? Where's your proof that sand isn't much of a risk?
No one is showing proof of what they are saying. If you want proof, show yours!

I mean does not being extinct count? I'm not speaking like the lord of tortoises either though.

I take everyones experience into account & its fine if you've seen something different. I'll improve my keeping if i see a benefit. The problem is theres like 3 bro's banding together calling me an idiot & telling me to bend thy knee .

 

[S2G]

Now are ready for this discussion....

So after what 8 pages or so. We can determine this is just a 2 different ways of accomplishing the same thing type discussion. Which boils down to opinion & we all know what they say about those.

So can we modify the caresheets to reflect that & quit demonizing each other?

 

[wellington]

Its not a problem until you bake them under unregulated lights like a gas station hotdog.

I mean does not being extinct count? I'm not speaking like the lord of tortoises either though.

I take everyones experience into account & its fine if you've seen something different. I'll improve my keeping if i see a benefit. The problem is theres like 3 bro's banding together calling me an idiot & telling me to bend thy knee .

Don't see anyone calling you an idiot or the post would be taken out. So if you want to show where that is, it will be fixed. There is no name calling allowed, but I need to see the proof or I can't do anything about it. I have read most, if not all posts, but I may have missed it.
How do you not see that there is no benefit with sand but there is a chance, slim or not of impaction with it. You do realize, it's the tortoises that pay for owners ignorance.

 

[wellington]

Just some illustrations for the topic of this thread: https://www.tortoisetrust.com/post/the-tortoise-myth-busters-episode-2 If you omit all the "I'm Andy Highfield!"-bla-bla-bla stuff there are some really remarkable photos and good references. However, the main conclusion I can draw from his post is that tortoise should live outside His assumptions on impaction causes and mitigations when taken as a whole, make me think that using significant amount of sand in the indoors setting is a bad idea. Yet, you can make it safe with a decent amount of space (more than 4x8, I presume).

Before I found the forum, I found that site. I wouldn't put to much into what they say. At least back then, they were very old and outdated. I haven't read them since, because I only read here.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Before I found the forum, I found that site. I wouldn't put to much into what they say. At least back then, they were very old and outdated. I haven't read them since, because I only read here.

Andy and Tom's ways of keeping tortoises diverged a while ago (luckily, The Thread is still here, on the forum). I would not call information there outdated or wrong. It's more accents put on different aspects. Of course, you should not blindly trust Tortoise Trust (or TFO) but there is a lot of good information there backed by field research. However, sifting facts from interpretations needs some effort

 

[Fluffy]

Just some illustrations for the topic of this thread: https://www.tortoisetrust.com/post/the-tortoise-myth-busters-episode-2 If you omit all the "I'm Andy Highfield!"-bla-bla-bla stuff there are some really remarkable photos and good references. However, the main conclusion I can draw from his post is that tortoise should live outside His assumptions on impaction causes and mitigations when taken as a whole, make me think that using significant amount of sand in the indoors setting is a bad idea. Yet, you can make it safe with a decent amount of space (more than 4x8, I presume).

What a great article! It touches on so many of the questions I had. I know that some people will dismiss it because of the source but Thank you for linking this.

As I assumed it is probably a husbandry issue and not so much a sand issue. Having a high fibre diet with lots of exercise and the correct temperatures appear to be very integral to preventing impaction. It was also telling that some species are built to live in sandy areas and some are not. Overall really good article.

 

[S2G]

Don't see anyone calling you an idiot or the post would be taken out. So if you want to show where that is, it will be fixed. There is no name calling allowed, but I need to see the proof or I can't do anything about it. I have read most, if not all posts, but I may have missed it.
How do you not see that there is no benefit with sand but there is a chance, slim or not of impaction with it. You do realize, it's the tortoises that pay for owners ignorance.

Honestly l dont want anything removed as it paints a pic of the whole discussion, but this is just one example so im not a liar. "Stupidly" partake in unsafe practices is pretty blatant on how someones feels about those who disagree. Which is kind of common superiority theme within this discussion.

I understand 100% what your point is. Theres no benefit as you see it. I see the same benefit that Chris does especially outside. Honestly he has as much experience as anyone & raises fantastic looking babies. So why do we dismiss him so quickly for this other person?

Im not trying to persuade you or anyone else. Yall are trying to persuade us. Which is fine, but you cant do that with "just trust me Im so & so of the TFO".

 

[DoubleD1996!]

Its not a problem until you bake them under unregulated lights like a gas station hotdog.

I mean does not being extinct count? I'm not speaking like the lord of tortoises either though.

I take everyones experience into account & its fine if you've seen something different. I'll improve my keeping if i see a benefit. The problem is theres like 3 bro's banding together calling me an idiot & telling me to bend thy knee .

Gas station hotdogs is hilarious

 

[mark1]

Where's the proof gopher tortoises are just fine?

depending on the locale a gopher tortoise can take 20yrs to reproduce... the proof would be they still exist

gopher tortoise

In southern Georgia, G. polyphemus still occurs on sand ridges in at least 81 counties. Some of the largest and most continuous populations are found in the western Fall Line Sand Hills

While some hatchlings immediately construct burrows, others may utilize adult burrows or merely seek shelter opportunistically under sand or litter

The gopher tortoise generally occurs on well-drained to dry soils, with adequate sand depths (in excess of one metre) for burrowing.

other tortoises that naturally prefer predominantly sandy substrate, egyptian, pancake, horsfield's, spur thighed, chaco, bolson, texas, and desert tortoises........

 

[mark1]

Mark, I know you are good at finding and getting research papers. Any chance to look at this one? https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=19840&id=8249919 (Surgery of sand-impacted Aldabra, hopefully with X-rays).

i would like to see the details on that

 

[wellington]

Just because a tortoise exists isn't proof that they are fine!

 

[mark1]

Just because a tortoise exists isn't proof that they are fine!

we'll agree to disagree on that...... i think it is the ultimate proof

 

[TammyJ]

@EppsDynasty . Thought you'd wrapped this one up, eh?

 

[S2G]

Just because a tortoise exists isn't proof that they are fine!

oh sweet baby jesus....Its cool we interviewed them. They all said it was a little hot this summer, but everyone is doing just fine. I'll drop the video once im done editing.

 

[jaizei]

Mark, I know you are good at finding and getting research papers. Any chance to look at this one? https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=19840&id=8249919 (Surgery of sand-impacted Aldabra, hopefully with X-rays).

It appears to be a synopsis for a presentation instead of a paper or study. I can look more thoroughly when I'm home in a couple days. Seems they're from the Netherlands, so might be worth a shot looking in Dutch. or someone can reach out to the person to see if it's available somewhere

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

It appears to be a synopsis for a presentation instead of a paper or study. I can look more thoroughly when I'm home in a couple days. Seems they're from the Netherlands, so might be worth a shot looking in Dutch. or someone can reach out to the person to see if it's available somewhere

I'll try to look in-depth for veterinary conferences presentations, magazines and such. However, brief googling and looking on ResearchGate brought only this one documented case.

At the same time, it could be that lack of veterinary case reports indicates that this problem is so common that it doesn't worth attention.

 

[Tom]

Andy and Tom's ways of keeping tortoises diverged a while ago (luckily, The Thread is still here, on the forum). I would not call information there outdated or wrong. It's more accents put on different aspects. Of course, you should not blindly trust Tortoise Trust (or TFO) but there is a lot of good information there backed by field research. However, sifting facts from interpretations needs some effort

I had a big argument with Andy here on the forum years ago. He decided to join up on the forum, not to help tortoises or educate us on the findings of his extensive field research, but to promote his new book that was coming out. After pages of arguing back and forth, he showed a single picture of a smooth leopard that he said he raised outdoors. I was incredulous and didn't believe it so I asked a barrage of questions. Everything I know told me that what he was saying wasn't true. After ignoring me, insulting me, and trying to evade the questions for several more pages, he finally gave the details about how he raised this smooth leopard tortoise outdoors in his cold clammy English climate: He did it inside a "poly tube". Essentially a large plastic closed chamber, but technically, it WAS outside...

 

[Tom]

Honestly l dont want anything removed as it paints a pic of the whole discussion, but this is just one example so im not a liar. "Stupidly" partake in unsafe practices is pretty blatant on how someones feels about those who disagree. Which is kind of common superiority theme within this discussion.

I understand 100% what your point is. Theres no benefit as you see it. I see the same benefit that Chris does especially outside. Honestly he has as much experience as anyone & raises fantastic looking babies. So why do we dismiss him so quickly for this other person?

Im not trying to persuade you or anyone else. Yall are trying to persuade us. Which is fine, but you cant do that with "just trust me Im so & so of the TFO".

You are way off base. You don't know me at all and you have mis-read the situation due to your own insecurities, as many before you have. Now you'll say, "but but but, I'm not insecure..." Your words tell a different story. You can't win the argument on merit, so you attack the character of your perceived opponent instead. You can be at the end of a long list of people who have done that before you.

While we are at it, you don't know Chris, and you don't know what problems he has, or has not, encountered over the years.

Do I also not raise fantastic looking babies? Don't most people? Is that your measure of whether or not someone is credible?

Again sand is sand is sand. Inside, outside, captive, wild. It really doesnt matter...

Incorrect.

if its a risk in one environment its a risk in another.

Correct. I've seen cases of sand impaction in both indoor and outdoor housed tortoises.

youre not providing verifiable proof for some us to believe you.

What verifiable proof is there? You want me to go find an X-ray of a sand impacted tortoise? How about 10 x rays? What is the point? You and no one else is arguing that sand impaction doesn't happen, so what proof is it you would like to see? Are you saying that tortoise do not and can not get sand impacted?

Gopher tortoises live in the some of worst sandy soil imagineable, but are just fine. Inside or outside again doesnt matter. If i was able to dig up a huge area around a burrow & bring it inside to an exhibit the sand doesnt miraciously turn into a hazard.

At no point in this discussion have I mentioned gopher tortoises. That is because I have never worked with them and know very little about what they need or how to house them best. I'm on the wrong side of the country for that species. If you have extensive experience keeping that species, hatching and raising babies, housing them many different ways on many different substrates, over several decades, working with many vets who also have extensive experience with that species and any common problems that they do or do not encounter on a regular basis in their practices, then I will not argue with you about housing this species on sand if you say its fine. There could be no argument in that case because one of us clearly would know what they are talking about due to multi-faceted decades of experience on the subject matter, while the other one, me, knows very little about the species in question other than what I read on the internet and heard from other tortoise keepers who have worked with them. On what basis could I possibly argue one way or the other? My feelings about the person on the other end of the argument?

 

[S2G]

You are way off base. You don't know me at all and you have mis-read the situation due to your own insecurities, as many before you have. Now you'll say, "but but but, I'm not insecure..." Your words tell a different story. You can't win the argument on merit, so you attack the character of your perceived opponent instead. You can be at the end of a long list of people who have done that before you.

While we are at it, you don't know Chris, and you don't know what problems he has, or has not, encountered over the years.

Do I also not raise fantastic looking babies? Don't most people? Is that your measure of whether or not someone is credible?

Incorrect.


Correct. I've seen cases of sand impaction in both indoor and outdoor housed tortoises.


What verifiable proof is there? You want me to go find an X-ray of a sand impacted tortoise? How about 10 x rays? What is the point? You and no one else is arguing that sand impaction doesn't happen, so what proof is it you would like to see? Are you saying that tortoise do not and can not get sand impacted?


At no point in this discussion have I mentioned gopher tortoises. That is because I have never worked with them and know very little about what they need or how to house them best. I'm on the wrong side of the country for that species. If you have extensive experience keeping that species, hatching and raising babies, housing them many different ways on many different substrates, over several decades, working with many vets who also have extensive experience with that species and any common problems that they do or do not encounter on a regular basis in their practices, then I will not argue with you about housing this species on sand if you say its fine. There could be no argument in that case because one of us clearly would know what they are talking about due to multi-faceted decades of experience on the subject matter, while the other one, me, knows very little about the species in question other than what I read on the internet and heard from other tortoise keepers who have worked with them. On what basis could I possibly argue one way or the other? My feelings about the person on the other end of the argument?

It doesnt matter anymore. Theres been enough back & forth discussion to determine this is all a matter of opinion.