Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Tom]

Experience just like you. I know the vets & work with several adoptions zoos. All with the same type soil. Sulcatas, red/yellow foot, etc. I usually end up with the testudo & box turtles. Theres plenty of people over seas that keep them on their natural soil.

Im not saying it cant be an issue, but its not near a big of a deal as its being made out to be. Theres underlying issues usually on these type of things.

Also theres a bunch of us that have playsand with fw puffers, altum angels, discus, & fw rays. No off the wall water tests or bad algae blooms.

Adoptions zoos? Can you explain what that is?

Nobody is debating whether or not keeping them on "natural soils" is an issue. All of my tortoises, except for the babies, live outside on natural soils. None of them have ever been impacted.

What do aquarium fish have to do with any of this?

You say this issue is not nearly as big of a deal that it is made out to be. What do you say to the vets out west here that see several cases of sand impaction a year?

 

[EppsDynasty]

@Tom .... You never fail to hit the point with a sledge hammer, I love it.
I must say this, native soils are FULL of organic materials. Of course the most obvious is the roots of all the plants that have grown there including ones that are not even there anymore. You also will have some part of the composition be naturally composted materials. So to equate "Native Soil" to commercially produced Sand is like comparing White Paint to Black Paint, Apples to Oranges.

 

[Tom]

@Tom .... You never fail to hit the point with a sledge hammer, I love it.
I must say this, native soils are FULL of organic materials. Of course the most obvious is the roots of all the plants that have grown there including ones that are not even there anymore. You also will have some part of the composition be naturally composted materials. So to equate "Native Soil" to commercially produced Sand is like comparing White Paint to Black Paint, Apples to Oranges.

Thanks man. Your explanation of the different materials that can make up "sand" is helpful, and this might be part of the explanation that @Fluffy has been looking for, along with hydration and enclosure size/exercise. For me, in practice, I've never seen sand impaction in a tortoise kept on the regular old dirt outside on the ground, while I have seen plenty of cases from tortoises that were housed on sand that was added to their enclosure, either indoors or out.

 

[S2G]

Adoptions zoos? Can you explain what that is?

Nobody is debating whether or not keeping them on "natural soils" is an issue. All of my tortoises, except for the babies, live outside on natural soils. None of them have ever been impacted.

What do aquarium fish have to do with any of this?

You say this issue is not nearly as big of a deal that it is made out to be. What do you say to the vets out west here that see several cases of sand impaction a year?

Well those are notoriously sensitive aquarium fish. If they have survived on playsand or pool filter sand all these yrs without being affected & doesnt show on a water test then it cant be as toxic as mentioned above.

Adoption zoo is a rescue that lets the public in occassionally & goes around educating people on the animals.

Probably the same thing you say to vets here & anyone who doesnt agree with you within this thread that are like eh i dont think its a huge thing unless its misused or other factors are involved.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Perhaps, that was the initial point - how to create a safe "yard dirt" in captivity. Most natural soils contain certain proportion of silt, sand and clay. If I remember, "plain yard dirt" was a "last resort" substrate in the care sheets.

Why to bother? Because we have keepers all over the world and pine bark is not available everywhere, coco coir can have much more long fiber strands that considered safe and "yard dirt" can be so different from what you have in your yard. I rule out cypress mulch as there are recent concerns on its safety and I'm seriously worried about amount of wooden dust in the air (yes, in 90-100% humidity enclosure without hot spots) and mulch pieces sticking to foods.

 

[S2G]

Sand is sand is sand. Outside inside whatever. You "soil" around your house probably isnt natural. It has to be built up a certain way. You have machines running around moving all kinds of different dirt etc. Youve got runoff & what if they had a garden there before you.

If sand is bad inside then sand is bad outside...but its not. Why is that? Then on top of that why does it seem like an epidemic out west?

 

[jaizei]

ikr, this discussion coulda been over 10 years ago if people stopped comparing apples to oranges.

As I said in post #3: A well hydrated animal kept on substrates containing sand is different than a dehydrated animal kept on mostly sand

Thinking that an animal kept on the substrate shown in Chris's video is becoming impacted from the small amount of sand added is ridiculous. Do y'all think the animal is eating and passing most of the substrate in the enclosure through its digestive system so that the sand can accumulate in quantities that can cause impaction? Or is it picking out only the sand to eat?

Note that the only "proof" provided, claims of "belly full of sand" come with no details. Presumably if the belly is full of sand, that animal has access to large amounts of mostly/just sand. If someone was keeping an animal mostly on sand inside, what 'style' of husbandry are they likely practicing? You think they're soaking 3 times a day, 90% humidity, keeping their animals super well hydrated? No. Someone using mostly/all sand, is more than likely keeping their animal "dry".

Further, since no details were provided, those same animals with "bellies full of sand" could have been eating the sand in an outside enclosure. Details aren't important so we'll never know.

Good luck on y'alls terraforming, removing all of that dangerous sand from your outdoor enclosures. Why take the risk? Just because you haven't had problems yet doesn't mean its safe, and your outdoor enclosures are not the same as "in nature."

 

[Tom]

ikr, this discussion coulda been over 10 years ago if people stopped comparing apples to oranges.

As I said in post #3: A well hydrated animal kept on substrates containing sand is different than a dehydrated animal kept on mostly sand

Thinking that an animal kept on the substrate shown in Chris's video is becoming impacted from the small amount of sand added is ridiculous. Do y'all think the animal is eating and passing most of the substrate in the enclosure through its digestive system so that the sand can accumulate in quantities that can cause impaction? Or is it picking out only the sand to eat?

Note that the only "proof" provided, claims of "belly full of sand" come with no details. Presumably if the belly is full of sand, that animal has access to large amounts of mostly/just sand. If someone was keeping an animal mostly on sand inside, what 'style' of husbandry are they likely practicing? You think they're soaking 3 times a day, 90% humidity, keeping their animals super well hydrated? No. Someone using mostly/all sand, is more than likely keeping their animal "dry".

Further, since no details were provided, those same animals with "bellies full of sand" could have been eating the sand in an outside enclosure. Details aren't important so we'll never know.

Good luck on y'alls terraforming, removing all of that dangerous sand from your outdoor enclosures. Why take the risk? Just because you haven't had problems yet doesn't mean its safe, and your outdoor enclosures are not the same as "in nature."

Your sarcasm is not helping tortoises or the people who keep them. Really not a surprise. That is all we've come to expect from you over all these years.

 

[jaizei]

Your sarcasm is not helping tortoises or the people who keep them. Really not a surprise. That is all we've come to expect from you over all these years.

neither is your gatekeeping of what people can do or discuss.

lets ask all the experienced members why they post here less and less. Why there aren't discussions about more advanced topics. I'm sure my sarcasm is the #1 answer lol

 

[jaizei]

Perhaps, that was the initial point - how to create a safe "yard dirt" in captivity. Most natural soils contain certain proportion of silt, sand and clay. If I remember, "plain yard dirt" was a "last resort" substrate in the care sheets.

Why to bother? Because we have keepers all over the world and pine bark is not available everywhere, coco coir can have much more long fiber strands that considered safe and "yard dirt" can be so different from what you have in your yard. I rule out cypress mulch as there are recent concerns on its safety and I'm seriously worried about amount of wooden dust in the air (yes, in 90-100% humidity enclosure without hot spots) and mulch pieces sticking to foods.

I'd liken substrate to growing media instead of to soil or dirt - even with adding sand, I keep my substrates closer to a media than to trying to replicate soil. I wouldn't use yard dirt or even bagged top soil (actual top soil not bagged mixes that call themselves top soil) because of the weight and it can turn muddy.

I think a mostly soilless mix is a good starting point. For bioactive substrates ABG mixes or similar are common.

 

[Tom]

Thinking that an animal kept on the substrate shown in Chris's video is becoming impacted from the small amount of sand added is ridiculous.

Uhhh... no its not. Your assertions are ridiculous. The sand has a tendency to collect in the gut while the other material passes through. This is a well known fact and has been seen in DTs with access to sand for decades. In an indoor enclosure with sand as part of the substrate, the are sand particles on nearly every bite of food every single day. What determines whether or not this sand passes or not? You don't know, and neither do I? This being the case, it is not some childish flight of fancy, as you would like to suggest, to recommend NOT housing them on a sand mixture.

I have personally seen this in necropsy results in 4-6 month old sulcatas that had been eating and passing feces their whole lives but were full of perlite that they hadn't seen since they hatched out of their eggs. Not sand, but the same principal. Does this have to do with the shape or composition of the sand particles? Maybe. Seems likely. As I said early on in this discussion: Any tortoise housed on sand MIGHT get sand impaction. Any tortoise NOT house on sand cannot ever get sand impacted. If you want to stupidly partake in unsafe practices, then you go right ahead. I, on the other hand, will continue on trying to help people house and care for their tortoises in better ways, as I always have in spite of your regular attempts to undermine my efforts.

 

[Tom]

neither is your gatekeeping of what people can do or discuss.

lets ask all the experienced members why they post here less and less. Why there aren't discussions about more advanced topics. I'm sure my sarcasm is the #1 answer lol

Hmmm... Old timers that have been doing things wrong, as I used to do, for decades, get butt hurt and stop posting because they don't like to be told we've all been doing it wrong for decades and we've learned better ways to do things now. Yes, let's ask them... And then let's ask the membership how off-putting your sarcasm and negativity is.

I tell you that your behavior isn't helpful, and instead of addressing that problem, you point a finger at me and assert the my sharing what I've learned over the years in an effort to help fewer tortoises die unnecessarily is "gatekeeping". If helping tortoises not die from old incorrect husbandry practices is gatekeeping, then I'd like to know where I can get my gatekeeping hat and uniform.

 

[EppsDynasty]

I find having an intelligent conversation with "Real Facts" and "Real Information" gets harder and harder as people get lost in Fantasies based on Feelings.

Well those are notoriously sensitive aquarium fish. If they have survived on playsand or pool filter sand all these yrs without being affected & doesnt show on a water test then it cant be as toxic as mentioned above.

You are failing to look at the whole in this statement. In an aquarium there are millions of bacteria (of a unknown number of types) that work like Biological cleaners in said environment. Example: The BP Oil Spill in the Gulf ... millions of gallons of oil tried to be cleaned up by Humans using Human techniques and very little progress. Within a year our amazing diverse biological creatures broke down said oil and broke it down into non toxic elements.
This IS how conversations like this one get lost in assumptions. In absolutely no way can you compare Sand underwater with Sand being used as substrate in air.

I have started as much info as I can to try and explain how and why sand isn't to be thought of as a standard universal thing. I am not on this forum to argue, I am here to provide the best world I can for as many animals in need. Just as all of you I will have to live with the decisions I make for these animals and do not want any to suffer unnecessarily.
If you decide to use Sand that's your choice and no one can take that away from you. The fact that captive Tortoises depend on us to make the best decisions for their life's can't be dismissed.

 

[jaizei]

Any tortoise housed on sand MIGHT get sand impaction. Any tortoise NOT house on sand cannot ever get sand impacted. If you want to stupidly partake in unsafe practices, then you go right ahead.

When does the terraforming begin?

I don't "stupidly" do anything, I put significant thought into my choices. As evidenced by the fact I'm seemingly aware of risks posed by other substrates, as well as the risks posed by all UVB bulbs instead of hyper focusing on certain types. I don't believe or repeat things without a reasonable degree of verification.

 

[Tom]

I find having an intelligent conversation with "Real Facts" and "Real Information" gets harder and harder as people get lost in Fantasies based on Feelings.

You are failing to look at the whole in this statement. In an aquarium there are millions of bacteria (of a unknown number of types) that work like Biological cleaners in said environment. Example: The BP Oil Spill in the Gulf ... millions of gallons of oil tried to be cleaned up by Humans using Human techniques and very little progress. Within a year our amazing diverse biological creatures broke down said oil and broke it down into non toxic elements.
This IS how conversations like this one get lost in assumptions. In absolutely no way can you compare Sand underwater with Sand being used as substrate in air.

I would add that in the past when I've use any substrate in an aquarium, including sand, I rinse the material first, and then typically drain and refill the tank at least once or twice because of all the "dirt" mixed in that clouds the water. This process should be removing or greatly reducing any toxins, unless the sand itself is of a toxic composition.

In short, I agree with your above quoted assessment.

Additionally, I've never seen a sand impacted fish or even an aquatic turtle. The issue with tortoises is accidental or intentional ingestion, and whether or not that sand will collect in the gut, or pass. And @Fluffy wants to know why it might or might not pass.

 

[EppsDynasty]

I would add that in the past when I've use any substrate in an aquarium, including sand, I rinse the material first, and then typically drain and refill the tank at least once or twice because of all the "dirt" mixed in that clouds the water. This process should be removing or greatly reducing any toxins, unless the sand itself is of a toxic composition.

In short, I agree with your above quoted assessment.

Additionally, I've never seen a sand impacted fish or even an aquatic turtle. The issue with tortoises is accidental or intentional ingestion, and whether or not that sand will collect in the gut, or pass. Any @Fluffy wants to know why it might or might not pass.

WITH A SLEDGE HAMMER .........

 

[Tom]

When does the terraforming begin?

I don't "stupidly" do anything, I put significant thought into my choices. As evidenced by the fact I'm seemingly aware of risks posed by other substrates, as well as the risks posed by all UVB bulbs instead of hyper focusing on certain types. I don't believe or repeat things without a reasonable degree of verification.

Where we disagree on this matter seems to be how much of a risk it is. You and some people on this thread seem to think its a non-issue. I have seen otherwise. I don't have a "reasonable" degree of verification. I have a substantial degree of verification. You, as usual, choose to make fun of me, insult me, and play the role of a "doubting Thomas" because you have not seen what I've seen. You don't seem to be a stupid person, but you do seem to have a hard time grasping the concept that other people might have seen and experienced things that you haven't.

 

[S2G]

I find having an intelligent conversation with "Real Facts" and "Real Information" gets harder and harder as people get lost in Fantasies based on Feelings.

You are failing to look at the whole in this statement. In an aquarium there are millions of bacteria (of a unknown number of types) that work like Biological cleaners in said environment. Example: The BP Oil Spill in the Gulf ... millions of gallons of oil tried to be cleaned up by Humans using Human techniques and very little progress. Within a year our amazing diverse biological creatures broke down said oil and broke it down into non toxic elements.
This IS how conversations like this one get lost in assumptions. In absolutely no way can you compare Sand underwater with Sand being used as substrate in air.

I have started as much info as I can to try and explain how and why sand isn't to be thought of as a standard universal thing. I am not on this forum to argue, I am here to provide the best world I can for as many animals in need. Just as all of you I will have to live with the decisions I make for these animals and do not want any to suffer unnecessarily.
If you decide to use Sand that's your choice and no one can take that away from you. The fact that captive Tortoises depend on us to make the best decisions for their life's can't be dismissed.

Thats everyones go to. If you dont agree with me you're an "idiot" or "stupid".

Those bacteria convert "bio" waste into a less toxic form that you remove. Basically swimming in less toxic sewage. The bacteria doesnt convert metals. If those metals etc were in there in the that quantity it'd show up on a water test. Those fish & especially invertebrates have low to zero tolerance for those.

Do you have any idea whats in your tap water you water plants with. I guarantee your soil already has a much bigger buildup than adding a bag of playsand.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I humbly ask everyone to return to sharing knowledge and experience, instead of fighting and calling names (perhaps, I'll beaten for that ).

I wonder how hydration helps to move sand through the intestines - sand doesn't float. Is it related to fecal mass consistency?

Also, one thing is missed from references to impaction cases vets have observed - a description of husbandry. Same was for CFLs. No doubt coiled bulbs can cause eye issues or sand can cause impactions. With some amount of effort coco coir, bark and T8 tubes can cause troubles too (I have seen an iguana hugging a T8 lamp once - certainly not good for its health).

 

[S2G]

Where we disagree on this matter seems to be how much of a risk it is. You and some people on this thread seem to think its a non-issue. I have seen otherwise. I don't have a "reasonable" degree of verification. I have a substantial degree of verification. You, as usual, choose to make fun of me, insult me, and play the role of a "doubting Thomas" because you have not seen what I've seen. You don't seem to be a stupid person, but you do seem to have a hard time grasping the concept that other people might have seen and experienced things that you haven't.

So what makes what you've seen & experienced so much more important than what other people have seen. I respect you, but theres a superiorty aspect to all your statements.

What youve seen seems to be isolated to where you live & mostly dt's for some odd reason. I guarantee theyre way more compaction deaths from coco coir here than sand. Im talking wayyy more.

They only way what youre saying makes sense is if theyre kept on mostly sand, kept dehydrated, & cant move. Then fed produce on the substrate.