Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

mark1

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2015
Messages
2,010
Location (City and/or State)
ohio
bolson tortoise

This is a large terrestrial tortoise approaching 40 cm in shell length (fossils may have reached one metre). It prefers low grade slopes (0.5% to 2% grade), fine textured soil (averaging 48% sand and 32% silt with both gravel and clay each comprising 10% of the total)

gopher tortoise

In southern Georgia, G. polyphemus still occurs on sand ridges in at least 81 counties. Some of the largest and most continuous populations are found in the western Fall Line Sand Hills

While some hatchlings immediately construct burrows, others may utilize adult burrows or merely seek shelter opportunistically under sand or litter
The gopher tortoise generally occurs on well-drained to dry soils, with adequate sand depths (in excess of one metre) for burrowing.
Specimens from dry, sandy areas are lighter in colour than those from wetter clay regions (Auffenberg 1969)

T. graeca
Where sympatric with T. hermanni, the two species tend towards habitat segregation, with T. graeca occupying open coastal sand dune systems at the western extreme of its range in Greece.
A wide variety of habitats and bioclimatic zones are inhabited over the entire species' range. Typically found in semi-arid hill scrub, open maquis and garigue type vegetation and at coastal sites, on sand dune ecosystems

The Egyptian tortoise is found principally in Egypt, but its range extends into parts of Israel and Libya, in the region of Cyrenaica. In Egypt it is confined to the northern part of the country, in the low-lying areas of Alexandria, Port Said, Damiette, and along the Mediterranean coast of the Sinai. Its distribution is interrupted by the alluvial plain of the Nile delta. In Israel, its distribution is limited to sandy areas and dunes in the western Negev and to isolated sand areas of Mishor Yamin and Mishor Rotem.
A similar high density of tortoises occurs on Dassen Island off the Cape west coast. Preliminary transects on this flat, sand covered granite island (19 m high, 220 hectares) indicate that as many as 10-20,000 tortoises may be present
Milstein (1968) found two specimens hibernating in mid-May. They were almost half-buried in soft red sand

Horsfield's Tortoise


while the most favoured habitats were the loess foothills and sandy deserts of the Badkhaz and Karabil plateaus

Star tortoises
are highly generalized in habitat preference. Deraniyagala (1939) reported that they inhabit sand dunes, brush wood, scrub forests, and park jungle in Sri Lanka.
 

Littleredfootbigredheart

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2023
Messages
1,591
Location (City and/or State)
UK
where is "hydrophobic sand" naturally found? what would be the "physics"/science behind it being "hydrophobic"?
At this point does it really matter when it’s been acknowledged sand can and has caused issues for captive tortoises, whether that was down to the individuals husbandry or not(though I think it’s likely the leading reason, makes the most sense) it can surely be agreed that we shouldn’t be recommending it as a safe addition to the whole spectrum of keepers?

Anyone who is choosing to give out animal care, has the responsibility to eliminate any potential risks(no matter how small) to the widest variety of keepers possible when recommending stuff. There’s never going to be a time all captive tortoises are receiving top quality husbandry in appropriate sized enclosures, it sucks that’s how it is, but it’s reality. The sand doesn’t do anything that can’t be achieved in ‘safer’ ways.

You keep responding with facts about wild tortoises, but we’re talking about captive care. There’s literally no way to 100% mimic to an absolute T how they live in the wild, even with the best husbandry in the world.

All I know is, seeing what I see here daily, adding sand into the mix of general advice isn’t a smart move imo..

I know my response may read a bit pushy because it’s hard to read tones in messages! I promise I’m not trying to diminish the points you’ve made, some have been pretty valid and interesting to read!
 

S2G

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2021
Messages
187
Location (City and/or State)
AL
At this point does it really matter when it’s been acknowledged sand can and has caused issues for captive tortoises, whether that was down to the individuals husbandry or not(though I think it’s likely the leading reason, makes the most sense) it can surely be agreed that we shouldn’t be recommending it as a safe addition to the whole spectrum of keepers?

Anyone who is choosing to give out animal care, has the responsibility to eliminate any potential risks(no matter how small) to the widest variety of keepers possible when recommending stuff. There’s never going to be a time all captive tortoises are receiving top quality husbandry in appropriate sized enclosures, it sucks that’s how it is, but it’s reality. The sand doesn’t do anything that can’t be achieved in ‘safer’ ways.

You keep responding with facts about wild tortoises, but we’re talking about captive care. There’s literally no way to 100% mimic to an absolute T how they live in the wild, even with the best husbandry in the world.

All I know is, seeing what I see here daily, adding sand into the mix of general advice isn’t a smart move imo..

I know my response may read a bit pushy because it’s hard to read tones in messages! I promise I’m not trying to diminish the points you’ve made, some have been pretty valid and interesting to read!
Come on over to the dark side you know you want to😁. Youve seen giant sandy poops & youve seen all their native habitats. You know its not the problem.

Lets fix the husbandry so not only is sand not a problem other substrates arent either. Can you imagine eating loads of bone dry coco coir & then trying to scarf down some grocery store kale?

We have snacks
 

mark1

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2015
Messages
2,010
Location (City and/or State)
ohio
my box turtle pen has been established for easily 25yrs...... it used to be a 24' above ground pool, it became a 24x24 square pen...... you know what's put under a pool liner? SAND.... i rototilled it into the soil........ i added some extra bags of sand to where they would hibernate, dug and rototilled this area down easily 2'...... my house was built in/on a vineyard, to give you an idea of the already existing soil........ there are, at last count, 17 box turtles in that pen, wasn't always that many..... i'll guess conservatively over the last 25yrs there has been an average of 6 in that pen....... would that be equivalent to having kept one box turtle on that sandy soil for 150yrs without issue.......
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
50,994
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
my box turtle pen has been established for easily 25yrs...... it used to be a 24' above ground pool, it became a 24x24 square pen...... you know what's put under a pool liner? SAND.... i rototilled it into the soil........ i added some extra bags of sand to where they would hibernate, dug and rototilled this area down easily 2'...... my house was built in/on a vineyard, to give you an idea of the already existing soil........ there are, at last count, 17 box turtles in that pen, wasn't always that many..... i'll guess conservatively over the last 25yrs there has been an average of 6 in that pen....... would that be equivalent to having kept one box turtle on that sandy soil for 150yrs without issue.......
Have you had a necropsy on every death that didn't have a obvious known cause?
Are box turtles different then tortoises when it comes to sand?
 

dd33

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 22, 2018
Messages
572
Location (City and/or State)
Florida
What about this assertion... Any tortoise that is unhealthy enough to die from "sand impaction" was going to die anyway no matter the substrate it was on.
I don't believe sand can be definitively be blamed for a tortoise death even if backed up with x-rays and a gross necropsy without further pathology. This is a correlation/causation thing. Disease, disease, disease. . .
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
50,994
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
For whoever is going to keep recommending/promoting sand, be sure you go into all the details to the newbies on how to exactly use it and for what species.
The rest of us can and will keep recommending not to use it, it can cause impactions!
 

Alex and the Redfoot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2023
Messages
2,400
Location (City and/or State)
Cyprus
In this old paper Dr. Jacobson mentions (last page) a few cases of sand impactions and intestinal damages in Aldabras and Leopard tortoises (and warns about sand). No references and details, unfortunately (the paper itself is 30 years old). However, sand abrading mucous membranes hasn't been mentioned among possible risks, so I leave the link here:

P.S. - one more mention of sand accumulation in necropsy here: https://www.researchgate.net/public...nes_necropsied_in_the_Distrito_Federal_Brazil
 

mark1

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2015
Messages
2,010
Location (City and/or State)
ohio
At this point does it really matter when it’s been acknowledged sand can and has caused issues for captive tortoises,
so has lightening???? tom even knows of an instance???



You keep responding with facts about wild tortoises, but we’re talking about captive care. There’s literally no way to 100% mimic to an absolute T how they live in the wild, even with the best husbandry in the world.
the "wild" can be duplicated good enough easier than you think........ i got 3 baby box turtles, living in a 6'x2' enclosure outside on soil i'd estimate 50% sand 40% organic and minimal clay...... they are 4yrs and 3yrs and have maintain a complete normal life cycle in 12 square feet.....
 

S2G

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2021
Messages
187
Location (City and/or State)
AL
For whoever is going to keep recommending/promoting sand, be sure you go into all the details to the newbies on how to exactly use it and for what species.
The rest of us can and will keep recommending not to use it, it can cause impactions!
I guess we're going to skip over the fact Chris says when used "correctly". The same with that coil bulb. If you dont want to do it like that then do something else. Very simple concept.

Chris successfully does it this way follow that method. Tom successfully does it this way follow this method.
 

mark1

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2015
Messages
2,010
Location (City and/or State)
ohio
Have you had a necropsy on every death that didn't have a obvious known cause?
Are box turtles different then tortoises when it comes to sand?
every death??? i've only had these guys 25-26yrs....... 2 deaths, a dog and one accidentally got locked in a wooden box over winter when i closed it up so they couldn't get in it, froze to death...... other than that one wood turtle killed by a dog........ every death? these guys will outlive me.....
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
50,994
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
I guess we're going to skip over the fact Chris says when used "correctly". The same with that coil bulb. If you dont want to do it like that then do something else. Very simple concept.
Chris doesn't post on here unless he is alerted. I'm talking the rest of you that like to argue but don't help out much otherwise!
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
50,994
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
every death??? i've only had these guys 25-26yrs....... 2 deaths, a dog and one accidentally got locked in a wooden box over winter when i closed it up so they couldn't get in it, froze to death...... other than that one wood turtle killed by a dog........ every death? these guys will outlive me.....
That's what we all hope, but we see many tortoises on here that don't!
 

S2G

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2021
Messages
187
Location (City and/or State)
AL
Chris doesn't post on here unless he is alerted. I'm talking the rest of you that like to argue but don't help out much otherwise!
I can see why with this pitch fork cult mentality!!

Im not hitler. I will point you to a few ways that work. The rest is on you.
 

Littleredfootbigredheart

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2023
Messages
1,591
Location (City and/or State)
UK
Come on over to the dark side you know you want to😁. Youve seen giant sandy poops & youve seen all their native habitats. You know its not the problem.

Lets fix the husbandry so not only is sand not a problem other substrates arent either. Can you imagine eating loads of bone dry coco coir & then trying to scarf down some grocery store kale?

We have snacks
I’ve never said it was the sole issue for a cause of death, maybe others have but I haven’t.. me and other folks on here advise new people daily on ways to fix their husbandry, even then there can be lots of confusion on how to actually apply the information to a set up, if the coir is maintained the way that’s advised on here(which is much easier to explain than the way to properly use sand to minimise risks) I don’t think ingesting some coir is an issue..we can’t control what kind of diets and supplements everyone has access to, even when linked to the right stuff, so if it’s true that some will eat sand when there’s a slight dietary imbalance, I wouldn’t want that to start becoming a common problem we start seeing amongst the common problems we see already😕

I will however steal some snacks.. @Chubbs the tegu wouldn’t share their popcorn with me😂

What about this assertion... Any tortoise that is unhealthy enough to die from "sand impaction" was going to die anyway no matter the substrate it was on.
If common husbandry mistakes weren’t a thing of existence, and never would be, I might see things differently.. I understand the notion of ‘well if there’s other mistakes happening the tortoise will get sick or die anyway’, not necessarily untrue I’ll give you that, however again, do we really want to throw sand into that delicate mix as an added factor to chance? Or does it make more sense to recommend things we know minimise unnecessary risks?
I guess we're going to skip over the fact Chris says when used "correctly". The same with that coil bulb. If you dont want to do it like that then do something else. Very simple concept.

Chris successfully does it this way follow that method. Tom successfully does it this way follow this method.
We can’t guarantee everyone watching that video is going to be able to mimic what Chris is doing perfectly, lots of people watch stuff and take snip bits of care information.. we can’t take for granted everyone would use it correctly, therefore no guarantee the sand wouldn’t come without some unnecessary risks.. Toms methods come without the potential sand problems.. it might seem small, but it just makes sense to not recommend it and not potentially contribute to the vast amount of issues we already see?
so has lightening???? tom even knows of an instance???
Lightning cannot be controlled, purposely adding sand can be

The "wild" can be duplicated good enough easier than you think........
I’m not arguing that once you know how, and are up on everything, that it isn’t easy to decently duplicate a wild setting, but again, this doesn’t come easy or natural to everyone, we don’t get a say on the types of people that should or can own tortoises.. same with any animals.. it’s about catering to a wide variety, to give as many tortoises a healthy a life as possible

PHEW! That was a big one.. did anyone even make it through that?!🤣
 

Littleredfootbigredheart

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2023
Messages
1,591
Location (City and/or State)
UK
This is a necropsy photo from one of my tortoises. Gut full of sand, not the cause of death. This tortoise died of TINC.

View attachment 375094
Is there any way to know that sand may not have eventually caused an issue though? I only ask because it literally looks like it was starting to create its own lining, but perhaps that’s just the photo😕
 
Top