why basking spot 115 degrees?

[exoticsdr]

Dont think I ever stated "out of line" Doc. If you read this thread, I think I started out asking the question "what are the benefits"? A question still not answered. Can the same thing be accomplished at 98, 95 or 90 my experience and my torts tell me yes. If a tortoise can metabolize, fight infection and thrive at temps around 95 why do we give them or better yet promote temps of 110+? It stands to reason that if you provide such extreme temps that you also need to provide extreme humidity, spraying and soaking. I guess what I'm suggesting is we maintain our tortoises at lower basking temps and less humidity and achieve the same results. Not trying to be sarcastic or argumenative, but does what I write seem logical to you, that we are fighting one extreme (basking of 110+) with another (humidity over 80% and constant basking and soaking)?

Don't you keep your torts outside year around? If that is the case, then this argument doesn't even really effect you or the way in which you keep your torts. Now, if you are saying that when it's 95 in Hawaii, your outside torts temps don't get above that temp, I say that you need a new thermometer and you are NOT raising your torts at 90, 95 or even 98 degrees as you suggest the lower 48 tort owners to prescribe to. I can appreciate your arguement, but I think being where you are, it is natural to take for granted certain advantages that you have over us on the mainland without realizing what your torts are actually experiencing (i.e. the effects of radiant heating and fairly constant temps). I will continue to provide adequate humidities and higher basking temps and let the torts decide. As for this subject, I think I've beaten this horse enough.

 

[onarock]

Dont think I ever stated "out of line" Doc. If you read this thread, I think I started out asking the question "what are the benefits"? A question still not answered. Can the same thing be accomplished at 98, 95 or 90 my experience and my torts tell me yes. If a tortoise can metabolize, fight infection and thrive at temps around 95 why do we give them or better yet promote temps of 110+? It stands to reason that if you provide such extreme temps that you also need to provide extreme humidity, spraying and soaking. I guess what I'm suggesting is we maintain our tortoises at lower basking temps and less humidity and achieve the same results. Not trying to be sarcastic or argumenative, but does what I write seem logical to you, that we are fighting one extreme (basking of 110+) with another (humidity over 80% and constant basking and soaking)?

Don't you keep your torts outside year around?
Yes I do


If that is the case, then this argument doesn't even really effect you or the way in which you keep your torts.

Right, but that doesnt mean I'm not interested.


Now, if you are saying that when it's 95 in Hawaii, your outside torts temps don't get above that temp, I say that you need a new thermometer and you are NOT raising your torts at 90, 95 or even 98 degrees as you suggest the lower 48 tort owners to prescribe to.

Exactly, they are hotter which is my point. Never asked them to prescribe to anything. This whole thing started because I asked a question, a question still not answered. What are the benefits?


I can appreciate your arguement, but I think being where you are, it is natural to take for granted certain advantages that you have over us on the mainland without realizing what your torts are actually experiencing (i.e. the effects of radiant heating and fairly constant temps). I will continue to provide adequate humidities and higher basking temps and let the torts decide. As for this subject, I think I've beaten this horse enough.

Thanks for the input Doc. I always look foreward to your input.

 

[exoticsdr]

I am going to beat this horse again....but with a different stick. When I tell clients 100 degrees or 110 degrees, I don't tell them that the ambient temp needs to be that temp and I think thatis where the confusion will be for the newbies out there. A basking area needs to be provided and that basking area needs to allow the tort to elevate it's body temp to an appropriate temp to effectively digest it's food. This is where those laser thermometers come in handy.

Rock, I too, always look forward to your insight and passion. Have a great night, my friend.

 

[Becki]

Nice contribution... do you want to share what you had for lunch? How about your favorite color?

Ugh....I'm so sick of this!

Yes, my favorite color is yellow. Thanks for asking!

 

[Robert]

Onarock: any thoughts on the UVB issues with an MVB? Mine is hung 12 inches above my torts shell which makes my basking stone about 96 degrees. (Her shell is about 6-8 inches high). If I had a small hatchling, I assume the spot would be hotter.

Do you think the secondary benefit of the UVB, hung at the recommended height, makes the higher temps justified? Especially if the negative effects of higher temps can be easily controlled with increased humidity/spraying/soaking?

---

My favorite color is green.

 

[DeanS]

RE: Aloe vera

So, your saying tortoises that exhibit some forms of pyramiding arent thriving? That is laughable. I have 8 platynota two are pyramid all have been kept the same. They dont act any different than the others and all appear to be thriving. But, hey, what do I know.

Not much apparently! And next time let squamata speak for himself. This is why I disappeared from the Forum for awhile...too many wannabe experts. If you truly wanna learn...GREAT! Pose your question in a civil manner and let someone knowledgeable answer it! And don't turn it into the GREAT DEBATE! If you don't want to test other peoples' theories, then you really shouldn't comment too harshly on their SUCCESS! It seems that everytime someone gets an animal...within a month or two...they're an expert! It used to be amusing...now it's just pathetic!

 

[onarock]

I think the 120 degree ambient was a brain fart on the posters end.

My experience has been, and others too, is that a tortoise has the ability to thermoregulate itself to temps much higher than 85 degrees even if the ambient temp is 85 provided they have access to direct or partial sun.

So, if what I have experienced as well as others is correct, what is the benefit of 110+ degree basking. It seems as if its accute, extreme heat. I think that the accuteness of the temp is the issue. I can heat my hand up in an oven slow or I can heat my hand up over an open flame fast. The same temps can be reached, but one will burn while the other will not.

I have not heard anyone claim that the ambient air temp had to be raised to 120 degrees in the torts enclosure, what has been clearly said is that a basking area of 100+ degrees needs to be provided, meaning that an area needs to be provided where the tortoise can raise it's body temp up to 100+ degrees if it chooses to.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I am going to beat this horse again....but with a different stick. When I tell clients 100 degrees or 110 degrees, I don't tell them that the ambient temp needs to be that temp and I think thatis where the confusion will be for the newbies out there. A basking area needs to be provided and that basking area needs to allow the tort to elevate it's body temp to an appropriate temp to effectively digest it's food. This is where those laser thermometers come in handy.

Rock, I too, always look forward to your insight and passion. Have a great night, my friend.

Best answer and simple. To digest food and thermoregulate!

---

Here is what we notice. When it is very hot, they do not spend as much time in the sun as to when it is less hot.

 

[Az tortoise compound]

Paul,
Isn't the benefit, a tortoise having the choice of spending time where it's 110* if it chooses to? In my mind, as long as a gradient is provided our animals will travel where they want. I put my faith in the animals instinct (mother nature) knowing more than we do.
On a side note:
I think these conversations need to take place from the standpoint that "we" as a group of varying experience do not know alot that is absolute scientific "fact". You do not have irrefutable proof a 110* basking spot is bad and I do not have irrefutable proof it is good.
Therefore
People need to be more open minded and talk about "our" ideas not "their" beliefs.
I have the same chance you do of being dead wrong.

 

[onarock]

RE: Aloe vera

You based you post on my sarcastic remark. Talk about pathetic. You still have not answered my questions which leads me to think your just a sheep and I should take this up with your superiors (Tom).

Never called myself an expert. Actually it was you who dropped all the reptile and Zoo references. Your are also the only one who stated your theory as fact. If you read my posts I posted my questions in a civil manner and all I got in return is regurgitated mis-informaiton and silence. Like I said, you dont know why your doing what your doing. You cant even tell us why it works. Let me ask you this Mr.Tortoise Expert, can you accomplish the same result with 75% humidity and 95 degree basking? I'm sure this will go unanswered like my other questions. I'm hoping that your not as reckless as you appear to be and you actually stepped up your humidity and heat neads over a period of years gradually and had numerous test subjects, but I dont think that will be the case. You jumped on board Toms theory and stated it as fact and the most important thread on the forum.

If your implying that I have only been keeping tortoises for a month or two, I dont know what led you to that.

I'm sure Dean that with all the hatchlings you produced over the years due to the success youve had with your group your more than capable of producing an original thought. I just dont think you will.

Im sure you have some original thought to add to all this, just think you dont want to be un-loyal

So, your saying tortoises that exhibit some forms of pyramiding arent thriving? That is laughable. I have 8 platynota two are pyramid all have been kept the same. They dont act any different than the others and all appear to be thriving. But, hey, what do I know.

Not much apparently! And next time let squamata speak for himself. This is why I disappeared from the Forum for awhile...too many wannabe experts. If you truly wanna learn...GREAT! Pose your question in a civil manner and let someone knowledgeable answer it! And don't turn it into the GREAT DEBATE! If you don't want to test other peoples' theories, then you really shouldn't comment too harshly on their SUCCESS! It seems that everytime someone gets an animal...within a month or two...they're an expert! It used to be amusing...now it's just pathetic!

 

[Tom]

Paul your tone in this entire thread is despicable, insulting, sarcastic, off-putting and hostile. I don't like it and most of the responders to your thread are being very mature while dealing with your childish jabs. We are all tortoise people here. We all want what's best for tortoises. We all have different experiences and points of view. Can we please act and talk to each other like the friends that we are, or ought to be. We are all here to share and learn. Sarcasm and belittlement does not further that goal.

I'll tell you again (and again and again, if necessary), the people who have read the Fife's book and/or discovered and experimented with these things on their own, are not followers of mine. They are reasonably intelligent people who just happened to have reached the same conclusion as me, usually for the same reasons. Why do you insist that I am the leader and anyone who agrees with my findings is a mindless follower? It was inappropriate and insulting the first time you proclaimed this and its not getting any more tasteful now. Enough of my ranting... I'll answer your original question again. Apparently, me answering it in PMs didn't satisfy you, or perhaps you are trying to bait me out into public to be the victim of more sarcasm and accusations of ignoring you.

Caveat: I am primarily talking about sulcatas, leopards, CDTs and russians. I only have limited experience with any of the others that was mostly acquired through nearly a decade of working with them, and clients who owned them, in retail pet stores. The first four species listed, I have two decades of personal experience with. Redfoots and Kelly's gorgeous greeks are not anything I will argue about. I don't have enough first hand knowledge of those species to do so.

Point #1: Even on a cool day torts seek to warm themselves up to 100+ degrees. Just this Saturday I had several forum members visit the ranch. With an ambient temp of 67F, we temped Scooter's carapace at 104.1. This is a tort who lives outside and has ample shade to sit in anytime he likes. When its over 100 degrees he and all my other sulcatas walk around in the sun and graze in direct sunlight without a care. All of my babies (20 right now) temp at around 100 degrees F after an hour or two of sun as well. An 85-90 degree basking spot will not allow a tort in a 65-70 degree, North American house achieve its desired body temp. Most of the time my outdoor torts carapace temps are 98-112. This is by choice. They have ample shade at all times of the day and at least one, if not several areas, to soak in cool water, if they so desire.

Point #2: A tortoises behavior ought to be an indication of whether or not your temps are correct. If they are always directly under the light or always on the hot side and seldom move to the cool side of the enclosure, it should indicate that things are too cool. Likewise, if they are always on the cool side, avoiding the heat of the lamp, things are probably too hot. For the average home here in the states a basking spot of 100-110 seems to make the tort move in and out of the hot spot just about the right amount. At that basking temp, they will usually sit for a while to warm themselves and them begin to explore the cage and forage for food. (Some will commence begging for food at this point.) After a bit of exercise or eating, they will usually return to bask some more and warm back up to 100+. At a basking temp of 85-90 they will most often just sit right under the light, all the time, as they never reach their desired temp. THIS is what will really dry them out. No one is saying house them at 100+ degrees. We are saying, give them the OPTION of warming themselves up to that temp, AND the option of moving away from that temp when they are comfortable. This is the whole concept of thermoregulation. I'll bet that if you temp an adult sulcata carapace or a leopard carapace in Hawaii you'll get somewhere near the same temps. Even though ambient is not 100 there, I'll bet the torts still thermoregulate themselves up to that point. In the event that I am wrong, which I'm sure you would gleefully point out, it may be because things are consistently warmer there with out the night time or seasonal lows that we have. There is a thing called "heat inertia" which is a well documented survival strategy employed by large African mammals, where they channel blood flow for minimal warming during the hot days and maximum cooling during the cooler nights. It makes sense that a North American tortoise might attempt to get a little extra warm during the day in anticipation of a cooler night. A factor that you might not have over there, or maybe just not as pronounced.

Point #3: You are way too hung up on these EXACT humidity and temp numbers. ITS A GENERALITY FOR GOODNESS SAKE!!! How many times must I, and many others, repeat this? The numbers will be different for someone in New Orleans than they will for me in the CA desert. They will be different for the Pacific Northwest than they will be for South Florida. In general, higher humidity prevents pyramiding. This was proven in the Austrian study and proven hundreds of times over by people like me. The temps I share with people are the temps that have worked well for me. Truth be told, I actually like my basking spots a little warmer. I, however, check the temps at the highest part of the tortoises carapace height. Because I'm afraid someone might over do it, I have started recommending "around 100" here on the forum in case someone goes over board. I'll bet you can still find old posts of mine from when I first joined the forum where I recommended 120-130 degree basking spots, but clearly stated only in that one spot. I used to keep Uromastyx too. Try keeping them at 80-90 and see how well they do for you. ALSO, I'm now experimenting with lower basking temps for just the reasons you cited AND because I like to keep an open mind. Your queries have NOT been ignored, I'm checking things out, BECAUSE of your questions. When my basking temps start dropping below 100 the torts just camp right under the hottest part of the light all day. You kept torts here on the mainland. I can't understand why you don't know this. Did you used to keep them with 80 degree hot spots here? Didn't you notice they hardly ever got out from under the lights?

Point #4: I really don't see why you don't get the connection between your relatively mild ambient temps but with the ability to bask in the sun, and indoor basking. Your torts don't sit outdoors in Hawaii and maintain a temp of 80 all day. They bask in the mornings and afternoons and maintain an over all warmer than ambient temp all day, don't they? This is all we are advocating for indoor torts over here. At a basking spot of only 80-90 they CANNOT get as warm as your Hawaiian torts even on a cool day. What don't you get?


Rob, there is much debate over your question. Here is my opinion based on my experience: I don't care what the box says. I position the height of the lamps to get the desired temps. I don't understand how UV can travel millions of miles from the sun and still be so intact that a highly effective amount of it can still BOUNCE into the shade, but if your $50 MVB is placed 2" too high its UV output is totally ineffective. Solar UV can travel millions of miles through space and be filtered by all the layers of our atmosphere and the ever present contaminants, but MVB UV can't travel an extra 2" though clean, indoor air? Makes no sense to me. I don't agree that a 100+ degree basking spot is damaging in any way to a torts shell. And I don't think that the humidity and moisture is compensating for overly hot basking spots either. As was demonstrated above, for a tort like Scooter, even an indoor basking spot of 100 degrees is not warm enough. He wanted to be 104 on Saturday.

 

[Skyler Nell]

So, I only read the first 2 pages of this thread but this entire thing seems so over the top! So much fighting over something so minimal. Have people raised healthy tortoises that are "thriving" with a 115 basking spot? YES. Have people raised healthy tortoises with a much lower temp? YES. So there, case closed. Both sides make sense, so chose what you think is best, either way works, even if some pyramiding takes place. Is that really such a horrible thing? As long as it doesn't turn into MBD it doesn't really affect anything. Regardless, tortoises almost always do better outside, so why are we so obsessed with the need to create this "perfected indoor environment" when really these little guys just wanna be where they came from...OUTDOORS. Sheesh, sometimes the stuff I see on here just blows my mind. All these people speaking so cruelly over a couple degrees difference. And lets face it, if you're going to talk to someone like this, you probably don't really care how they keep their tortoise anyways. This is just my 18 year old perspective...adults behaving like children.

 

[onarock]

The entire thread?? Think your being over dramatic dont you? I dont think I'm behaving any differently than you have on other threads. You have berated people on the forum, but I guess your level of beratement is acceptable and mine is not... I'm not surprised.

First off, this isnt my thread. This thread is courtesy of Yvonne. She made up the title and added my name to it...

If you read the original posts from the other thread, Dean states quite clearly that these are his and your ideas. I didnt bring you into this debate Dean did. Inappropriate and insulting yet factual (something I dont wish to debate here) but I have shared with you in a PM as well.

Your point 1. Isnt an 85-90 degree basking spot an 85-90 degree basking spot? What does the environment around have to do with that particular spot. If its 85 degrees at my house and the mountain top above my house is 10 degrees its still 85 at my house. You state yourself that it was 67 degrees at your house but your tortoise carapace was 104.1. What I am saying is cant tortoises thermoregulate using basking lamps as well? If its 67 degrees in your house and you provide them with a 90-95 degree basking spot wont their shells reflect similar findings to your outdoor reference?

Your point 2. "A tortoises behavior ought to be an indication of whether or not your temps are correct. If they are always directly under the light or always on the hot side and seldom move to the cool side of the enclosure, it should indicate that things are too cool." This is not true especially for hatchlings. I have seen first hand account both indoors and out where hatchlings have begun to fail within minutes of being exposed to intense heat, basically freezing them right where they sit.

"At a basking temp of 85-90 they will most often just sit right under the light, all the time, as they never reach their desired temp. THIS is what will really dry them out." Are you stating that tortoises cant thermoregulate indoors? A forum member did a study using blocks of wood and a 75 watt spot lamp with ambient temps in the 60's and recorded surface temps well over 100 and a core temp of 90+ and thats wood. I know torts arent wood.

Your point 3. I am not anymore hung up on exact numbers then you or Dean are on stating your opinion and theory as fact and promoting such.

Your point 4. You have stated that your relative ambient temp is in the low 80's. You also stated that my torts bask in the morning and afternoon sun, which is true. They dont bask in the mid day sun. Let me get this straight. You keep an ambient temp similir to mine. You keep relative humidity similir to mine sometimes. In a way you state that my torts prefer to bask when the sun is not at its peak (an observation noted by many a tortoise keeper and by people who observe them in the wild not just pertaining to my group) then why is it that you and apparently Dean provide mid day sun all the time? A condition they try to avoid.

Listen, all I did was ask a question. I did not cast the first stone. Dean got snippy with John and I ran to his defense, something you have done on this forum in the past when it was percieved that your method was under attack. Your right, I did get a bit nasty with Dean, but hes a big boy he'll get over it.

I have shared your method with those that are not part of this forum. Keepers who have been to these specific spots of the world with the sole purpose of studying tortoises and none of them describe the conditions that you promote. Although, hatchlings were not something they observed in the wild, they were a heck of alot closer to the situation than you or I. I guess what I have been trying to state here and on other threads is can we get away with less extreme conditions. We talk about the newbie and wanting to give them the best info that we can. Its not that newbies cant understand what is being told to them and thus they will end up with a sick tort. To me more than anything its they dont have an understanding of the tools, the equipment. They are not familiar with these things such as the different basking lamps, undertank heating, CHE's and so on and so on, so they dont know how to use them properly and dont know their potential or limitations. For newbies your asking them to push the envelope. They are having anough trouble trying to sift through all the info being presented to them on top of trying to learn how all this tortoise hardware works.

Something I will state again for the tenth time. I never said that I think your method doesnt produce results. I think that you and Dean have proven that it does. I am just asking if your tollerances need to be set so high and if backing them off a bit will produce the same results and maybe help the newbie with that dreaded tortoise indoor habitat learning curve.

P.S its past my bed time. I dont use word to draft on as I suspect some do and I'm not going to proof read. It is what it is typos, spelling mistakes, poor grammar and all
PSS or what ever. I just went through this thread again and using Docs words "not to beat a dead horse", you think Deans last post to me "apparently not much" wasnt snippy? Grain of Salt...
Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-why-basking-spot-115-degrees?page=5#ixzz1GeZoyTC6

Paul your tone in this entire thread is despicable, insulting, sarcastic, off-putting and hostile. I don't like it and most of the responders to your thread are being very mature while dealing with your childish jabs. We are all tortoise people here. We all want what's best for tortoises. We all have different experiences and points of view. Can we please act and talk to each other like the friends that we are, or ought to be. We are all here to share and learn. Sarcasm and belittlement does not further that goal.

I'll tell you again (and again and again, if necessary), the people who have read the Fife's book and/or discovered and experimented with these things on their own, are not followers of mine. They are reasonably intelligent people who just happened to have reached the same conclusion as me, usually for the same reasons. Why do you insist that I am the leader and anyone who agrees with my findings is a mindless follower? It was inappropriate and insulting the first time you proclaimed this and its not getting any more tasteful now. Enough of my ranting... I'll answer your original question again. Apparently, me answering it in PMs didn't satisfy you, or perhaps you are trying to bait me out into public to be the victim of more sarcasm and accusations of ignoring you.

Caveat: I am primarily talking about sulcatas, leopards, CDTs and russians. I only have limited experience with any of the others that was mostly acquired through nearly a decade of working with them, and clients who owned them, in retail pet stores. The first four species listed, I have two decades of personal experience with. Redfoots and Kelly's gorgeous greeks are not anything I will argue about. I don't have enough first hand knowledge of those species to do so.

Point #1: Even on a cool day torts seek to warm themselves up to 100+ degrees. Just this Saturday I had several forum members visit the ranch. With an ambient temp of 67F, we temped Scooter's carapace at 104.1. This is a tort who lives outside and has ample shade to sit in anytime he likes. When its over 100 degrees he and all my other sulcatas walk around in the sun and graze in direct sunlight without a care. All of my babies (20 right now) temp at around 100 degrees F after an hour or two of sun as well. An 85-90 degree basking spot will not allow a tort in a 65-70 degree, North American house achieve its desired body temp. Most of the time my outdoor torts carapace temps are 98-112. This is by choice. They have ample shade at all times of the day and at least one, if not several areas, to soak in cool water, if they so desire.

Point #2: A tortoises behavior ought to be an indication of whether or not your temps are correct. If they are always directly under the light or always on the hot side and seldom move to the cool side of the enclosure, it should indicate that things are too cool. Likewise, if they are always on the cool side, avoiding the heat of the lamp, things are probably too hot. For the average home here in the states a basking spot of 100-110 seems to make the tort move in and out of the hot spot just about the right amount. At that basking temp, they will usually sit for a while to warm themselves and them begin to explore the cage and forage for food. (Some will commence begging for food at this point.) After a bit of exercise or eating, they will usually return to bask some more and warm back up to 100+. At a basking temp of 85-90 they will most often just sit right under the light, all the time, as they never reach their desired temp. THIS is what will really dry them out. No one is saying house them at 100+ degrees. We are saying, give them the OPTION of warming themselves up to that temp, AND the option of moving away from that temp when they are comfortable. This is the whole concept of thermoregulation. I'll bet that if you temp an adult sulcata carapace or a leopard carapace in Hawaii you'll get somewhere near the same temps. Even though ambient is not 100 there, I'll bet the torts still thermoregulate themselves up to that point. In the event that I am wrong, which I'm sure you would gleefully point out, it may be because things are consistently warmer there with out the night time or seasonal lows that we have. There is a thing called "heat inertia" which is a well documented survival strategy employed by large African mammals, where they channel blood flow for minimal warming during the hot days and maximum cooling during the cooler nights. It makes sense that a North American tortoise might attempt to get a little extra warm during the day in anticipation of a cooler night. A factor that you might not have over there, or maybe just not as pronounced.

Point #3: You are way too hung up on these EXACT humidity and temp numbers. ITS A GENERALITY FOR GOODNESS SAKE!!! How many times must I, and many others, repeat this? The numbers will be different for someone in New Orleans than they will for me in the CA desert. They will be different for the Pacific Northwest than they will be for South Florida. In general, higher humidity prevents pyramiding. This was proven in the Austrian study and proven hundreds of times over by people like me. The temps I share with people are the temps that have worked well for me. Truth be told, I actually like my basking spots a little warmer. I, however, check the temps at the highest part of the tortoises carapace height. Because I'm afraid someone might over do it, I have started recommending "around 100" here on the forum in case someone goes over board. I'll bet you can still find old posts of mine from when I first joined the forum where I recommended 120-130 degree basking spots, but clearly stated only in that one spot. I used to keep Uromastyx too. Try keeping them at 80-90 and see how well they do for you. ALSO, I'm now experimenting with lower basking temps for just the reasons you cited AND because I like to keep an open mind. Your queries have NOT been ignored, I'm checking things out, BECAUSE of your questions. When my basking temps start dropping below 100 the torts just camp right under the hottest part of the light all day. You kept torts here on the mainland. I can't understand why you don't know this. Did you used to keep them with 80 degree hot spots here? Didn't you notice they hardly ever got out from under the lights?

Point #4: I really don't see why you don't get the connection between your relatively mild ambient temps but with the ability to bask in the sun, and indoor basking. Your torts don't sit outdoors in Hawaii and maintain a temp of 80 all day. They bask in the mornings and afternoons and maintain an over all warmer than ambient temp all day, don't they? This is all we are advocating for indoor torts over here. At a basking spot of only 80-90 they CANNOT get as warm as your Hawaiian torts even on a cool day. What don't you get?


Rob, there is much debate over your question. Here is my opinion based on my experience: I don't care what the box says. I position the height of the lamps to get the desired temps. I don't understand how UV can travel millions of miles from the sun and still be so intact that a highly effective amount of it can still BOUNCE into the shade, but if your $50 MVB is placed 2" too high its UV output is totally ineffective. Solar UV can travel millions of miles through space and be filtered by all the layers of our atmosphere and the ever present contaminants, but MVB UV can't travel an extra 2" though clean, indoor air? Makes no sense to me. I don't agree that a 100+ degree basking spot is damaging in any way to a torts shell. And I don't think that the humidity and moisture is compensating for overly hot basking spots either. As was demonstrated above, for a tort like Scooter, even an indoor basking spot of 100 degrees is not warm enough. He wanted to be 104 on Saturday.

 

[John]

RE: Aloe vera

80 - 95 degrees overall is fine! I said they need a basking spot of 100-120! They come from the Sahara! Sometimes the Sahara doesn't get rain for a decade. Babies spend most of their early years in burrows that retain humidity from root systems, urates, feces...you name it! Why do I have to be published?!? I've worked with animals for more than 35 years. I've worked in reptile facilities! I've worked in zoos! I apologize if you think I'm 'cramming' anything down your throat! In captivity, dry conditions create pyramiding. You can offer the right food, but if conditions aren't right, you're going to get pyramiding! I, for one, don't need information spooned to me like a baby taking his first bite! Give it to me all at once. This is the problem some of you have with Tom and myself (and a few others). Fife set the wheels in motion and Tom and I took it to the next level. Sorry if you were too apprehensive not to take the next logical step. Science is ALL about experimentation. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has studied sulcata hatchlings in their natural environment. It's a good degree of guesswork! Some of us got it and some of you didn't! Don't sit there and criticize because you don't agree out of stubbornness or because what I said hurt your pride! Try it for yourtselves. Think outside of the box for a change. Just because your hatchlings are surviving, doesn't mean they're thriving! EXPERIMENT! Take one or two of your hatchlings and raise them the way Tom and I do! See what happens! Good luck!

please post the range map you reference too show which tortoises live in the sahara.from what i have researched the leopard tortoise range just touches the edge and the sulcatas live in the trasition between the sahara amd the savannah.thanks john

 

[Neal]

RE: Aloe vera

It seems that everytime someone gets an animal...within a month or two...they're an expert! It used to be amusing...now it's just pathetic!

I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, but I don't like this statement. This comment suggests that you don't consider such a person an expert...I'm curious, how much experience do they need before they can be called an expert? This is the problem I have with these forums. People who think because they've been in the hobby longer than another completley disregard any point of information from a "newbie", or anytime they hear something different they are so quick to throw the information away. As an example, there's a recent thread in the leopard section of a caresheet from a journalist in South Africa. Nearly everyone threw that away without reading in between the lines or considering anything of value. I wonder if the "oldbies" weren't so stuck in their ways, we could have learned about the humidity thing a long time ago...who knows.

Everyone of us has something of value to share whether you've been in the hobby for 30 years or 30 days. As far as I'm concerned I'd rather hear from the person who has raised their tortoises the "right" way for a short time rather than someone who has done it the "wrong" way for decades.

 

[Jacqui]

WARNING!!

While this may be a debate thread, PLEASE all of you give each other some respect. Stop all name calling now! Debate, but keep it on the friendly side. This thread can and will be closed if you continue in this line. That would be sad, because there are a lot of good thoughts being shared.

 

[Laura]

"I am going to beat this horse again....but with a different stick"

OMG!!! ANimal Cruelty!!!! this has GOT TO STOP! ;-)

But really.. if you 'kids' cant play nicely.. get out of the tortoise enclosure...
you are stressing the residents...

has all the world stress going on caused some to lose it a bit? I understand passion for things.. and debating.. and sometimes its hard to 'hear' what is being said in print...
there is a lot of interesting stuff being brought up. care wise.. but.......

 

[kbaker]

I am late on this thread, but I skimmed through it.

From what I saw, Tom is the closest to having a clue.

All reptiles benefit from being able to raise their temps to a certain point for food digestion, kick infections, develope eggs,...

They have to be able to judge for themselves and not be forced to have certain temps. They will use the higher temps when they feel the need. If it's not there when they need it, then they suffer - a little at a time and no, you don't always notice it.

120F is not ambient or air temps, it's surface temps. Yes, you shoot a little high so the proper temp is covered. And no, you never know the exact temp at all times for all tortoises.

Remember, we are cramming a whole eco system in a small area for a tortoise. If we are talking about a medium to large tortoise, a SPOT light does not work. FLOODs are better. One bulb will NEVER cover a tortoise this size. You have to expand the basking AREA. (You don't want to burn the tortoise's left front foot while his rear right foot is getting frost bite ). Also, start taking surface temps on those 'cool' 80F days. You will find them well above 100F.

You should not have to dry out the shell to get proper temps.

Babies do not need as high of heat as a larger adult and yes, they will dehydrate quicker.

 

[Yvonne G]

If this thread is to continue, then:

Their are good rules to follow when having a debate.


1. People can be very annoying when having discussions when they don't follow good rules
2. It's wrong to name calls.
3. Your goal should be to always be thorough and completely accurate. In business and politics you should not exaggerate or over simplify.
4. We should always treat each other with respect. Even those people we think are doing the country harm.
5. You should not say someone is "bad" just because they disagree with you.
6. You have to realize when it is more important to maintain the relationship, than get to truth.
7. You should try to stay on one topic at a time.
8. If you believe a different subject mater is related, and you want to change the subject to something else, you need to explain why.
9. People should only be blamed for things they have control over.
10. People should talk in specifics, not generalities. (somewhere else).
11. You should not lie, or misrepresent the facts.
12. Accusing your opponent of everything the opponent accuses you of so that neutral people who don't understand the game will assume that truth must lie somewhere in between, when in fact w there is nothing to back up your accusation, is not good (OSC).
13. Accuse the opponent of being unscientific, ignorant, or stupid ("grasp of Statistics is non-existent"), not because you actually understand science or statistics or anything else yourself, but because you just know that your team always has the facts on their side, regardless of whether you can actually prove it; so anti-establishment "evidence" must all be an ignorant misunderstanding, is not good (OSC).
14. You should not speak of your opponent with smug condescension.
15. You should not name call or attack people personally.
16. Sarcasm has no place in a debate!

 

[Tom]

The entire thread?? Think your being over dramatic dont you? I dont think I'm behaving any differently than you have on other threads. You have berated people on the forum, but I guess your level of beratement is acceptable and mine is not... I'm not surprised.

First off, this isnt my thread. This thread is courtesy of Yvonne. She made up the title and added my name to it... [End Quote]




Okay yes, that was a little dramatic, but for a good portion of it. Even in a little of it its not cool. I've always been respectful, courteous, and careful, even when passionately pleading my case. That's my perception and intention, anyway. I accept that your perception is different.

I had no idea about Yvonne starting this thread and putting your name on it, but the same thing happened to me the other day and I have no idea who did it. It started with my reply to one of Isa's threads about Canada's laws.