Breeding Sulcatas

[Yvonne G]

I totally agree with you, Dan, however I'm really afraid that if I don't make it easy for them to return the tortoise to me, they MIGHT just turn it loose someplace. When someone calls me and asks for me to take their turtle or tortoise I bend over backwards to hurry up and go get the animal. People change their minds and who knows what happens to the animal after that?

Yvonne

 

[egyptiandan]

I can definately see what your saying Yvonne and agree that people tend to do some not bright things when it comes to tortoises.
Just wish it wasn't like this Not much anyone can do though, but the best you can

Danny

 

[jpeck425]

I can definately see what your saying Yvonne and agree that people tend to do some not bright things when it comes to tortoises.
Just wish it wasn't like this Not much anyone can do though, but the best you can

Danny

This a very difficult question and I'm not sure that there is a right answer to it. I have sulcattas, which I received as rescues, and can definitely appreciate the need to change the path of consumers and disposable pets. However, breeding in captivity is a necessity, if we are going to keep a diverse selection of animals to enjoy in this hobby. Personally, I would love if the only animals removed from the wild were collected by permit for breeding purposes from Zoological Parks or Endangered Species Programs. I think we currently have a pretty wide variety of tortoises available now to make this so. Sometimes gaining experience on the easier, more prolific species to breed can give insight into requirements for breeding more advanced species.

I think there is a lot of emphasis being placed on the breeders and their responsibilities. I do agree that breeders need to use better judgement and should pick species that are more appropriate as pets to breed. I also feel that there is a huge responsibility on Pet Shops and Herp Vendors to better educate their customers and to offer more appropriate options. I see this all the time that the largest, most inapprpriate animals are the most prolific and therefore the most commonly bred and the cheapest. Examples beyond tortoises are Burmese Pythons, Green Iguanas, Water Monitors, Alligators, etc...If stores and vendors quit purchasing these animals to retail, breeders will go where the money is. We need to educate the public better and promote more appropriate species.

Reptile Shows and symposiums are a great opportunity to talk to the public. I've found that when someone can actually see, in person, the adult size of these animals and are then shown a better option, with the same benefits, they will usually pick the better option. I used to do school presentations when I had more time and would take a healthy specimen, as well as a deformed one to show what improper care can do.

Particularly here in America, we have this mind set that "Bigger is Better". We do it with our cars, our fast food and our homes, it's not really a surprise that we do it with our pets too. I think the key is changing this mind set and creating a better market for more apprpriate species. Sulcattas, Iguanas, etc... have their place and can be rewarding pets for the right person. They should just not be the most promoted or cheapest option.

Be well

 

[-EJ]

I said it once and I'll say it again... I'll take every Sulcata there is to offer... I will either keep them or find a good home for them. There are lots of people willing to take them.

Needless to say... they are not a problem... they are a problem for those who choose to take on the job of 'Rescuing' them.

This debate has not changed in ten years and the situation is not getting worse... it's getting better. It's providing advertisement to those who would never even consider keeping a tortoise as a pet. For many the adoption of a Sulcata is their first tortoise. There is a trend and that trend seems to be in a positive direction.

It just blows my mind how some tortoise keepers see this as a failure... the Sulcata used to be a rare tortoise. To top it off... none if any are taken out of the wild. This is obviously one of the most personable and adaptive tortoises in captivity... outside of the size... it's the perfect pet tortoise.

 

[JourneyTort]

"This debate has not changed in ten years and the situation is not getting worse... it's getting better. It's providing advertisement to those who would never even consider keeping a tortoise as a pet. For many the adoption of a Sulcata is their first tortoise. There is a trend and that trend seems to be in a positive direction."

In my opinion, that is the most ridiculous statement I have heard. How can it be getting better. You can't tell me there are less or even the same amount of Sulcata in rescue today than there was 10 years ago? I would think the goal would have NO sulcata in rescue. It shouldn't be that easy to obtain a sulcata tort. Having people wait until they become available and work hard at obtaining one would be one way of ciphering out the good homes with the bad (i.e. impulse buyers)

"It just blows my mind how some tortoise keepers see this as a failure... the Sulcata used to be a rare tortoise. To top it off... none if any are taken out of the wild. This is obviously one of the most personable and adaptive tortoises in captivity... outside of the size... it's the perfect
pet tortoise."

You just hit the nail on the head "...outside of the size..." not everyone can deal with the size and these torts should not be made to suffer because they are cute when little but disposable when they get too big.

It is very admirable of you to take responsibility for all the breeders out there. I wish you every success in your endeavour, at least the Sulcata will find a happy life if they cross your path.

 

[TylerStewart]

I think EJ did hit the nail on the head. They are a problem for the people who take it upon themselves to "rescue" the tortoises, then they convince a few outspoken people that there's tens of thousands of homeless, abandoned, unwanted tortoises out there that are suffering. Few ideas that any rescue might want to actually attempt (gasp!):

-Quit making the application process so lengthy. If the tortoises are such a burden on you, lighten the load on people trying to give them a good home. You can't expect people to send you 12 photos of their yard with a list of plants that are present as well as their paycheck stubs and social security number and the school their kids go to so that you can make sure it's a suitable home. Work with people a little bit and streamline this.
-Quit being "seasonal" with your adoptions. It's almost like you want to keep them.
-Don't be afraid to ship something. There's plenty of people out there looking for low cost pets that can't just drive to your barn in rural Kansas or wherever and pick it up.
-Make some sort of an effort to MARKET something. For very minimal cost (less than you'll spend feeding it all), you could easily find homes for everything by doing some advertising.

Someone said it before (maybe Marla??) if it wasn't sulcatas, it would be Russian tortoises or redfoots being imported in much higher numbers from the wild to fill the demand. The fact that many of them die while still babies has nothing to do with it being a sulcata. If the same person was keeping a baby redfoot or a baby russian, it would be no different.

I also will volunteer to take any available, unwanted tortoises in my area. There are none that I'm aware of in any local shalters or rescues.

 

[JourneyTort]

I think EJ did hit the nail on the head. They are a problem for the people who take it upon themselves to "rescue" the tortoises, then they convince a few outspoken people that there's tens of thousands of homeless, abandoned, unwanted tortoises out there that are suffering. Few ideas that any rescue might want to actually attempt (gasp!):

-Quit making the application process so lengthy. If the tortoises are such a burden on you, lighten the load on people trying to give them a good home. You can't expect people to send you 12 photos of their yard with a list of plants that are present as well as their paycheck stubs and social security number and the school their kids go to so that you can make sure it's a suitable home. Work with people a little bit and streamline this.
-Quit being "seasonal" with your adoptions. It's almost like you want to keep them.
-Don't be afraid to ship something. There's plenty of people out there looking for low cost pets that can't just drive to your barn in rural Kansas or wherever and pick it up.
-Make some sort of an effort to MARKET something. For very minimal cost (less than you'll spend feeding it all), you could easily find homes for everything by doing some advertising.

Actually they should be that tough when adopting, these torts have every right to live 'hopefully' the rest of their lives being taken care of properly. The problem starts at the beginning of their lives. Anyone with $50 can buy a sulcata. Breeders and sellers of these torts need to be a bit more responsible when it comes to breeding/selling these torts. Like I said before, be responsible for what you produce.

Someone said it before (maybe Marla??) if it wasn't sulcatas, it would be Russian tortoises or redfoots being imported in much higher numbers from the wild to fill the demand. The fact that many of them die while still babies has nothing to do with it being a sulcata. If the same person was keeping a baby redfoot or a baby russian, it would be no different.

Okay, sacrifice the sulcata then!!

I also will volunteer to take any available, unwanted tortoises in my area. There are none that I'm aware of in any local shalters or rescues.

That is also very admirable of you but do you only sell sulcatas in your area or do you sell them nationwide?

I really am not trying to start any arguments and this is just my opinion, but if people keep breeding these torts and selling them to people that don't have a clue as to what they are really purchasing then someone has to take responsibility. I am not saying that you are not responsible for what you sell, I don't know you. Are sulcata's in that much demand that they need to be so many on the market or are cute little hatchling torts in demand? How many full size sulcata's would you be able to sell? My guess would be not too many.

 

[TylerStewart]

I agree in that they do deserve a happy healthy life in captivity, but these rescues enthusiastically go get tortoises from people as soon as they become 2% difficult for them to maintain, then horde them so they can pat themselves on the back because they're saving the planet.

You can't possibly expect everyone that produces something to be responsible for it forever. How would a dog breeder or anyone that produces anything live or not possibly do that? By openly giving people the option of returning something at any time in the future, you completely eliminate the need for people to make an educated decision before buying one.

You're not going to eliminate the demand for baby tortoises, so you might as well focus on educating people towards proper care.

Not sure why it matters, but I sell nationally and a small percentage locally. Las Vegas is a good place for tortoises, but most people here in the market for one don't know me, and I don't particularly like to sell locally. My website explains which species are better suited to different climates, and takes you through two separate disclaimers about the size and potential yard destruction that comes with the purchase of a sulcata before you buy one.

As I've said before, I have checked local shelters, and there are no sulcatas or tortoises in them (unless I'm missing one). To compare it to the over-population of dogs and cats is completely innacurate. The fact that somewhere, sometime, someone had to put down a sulcata or two because they were unable to find an appropriate home for it does not mean there's not thousands of people out there that would gladly place it in a good home. Maybe the people that wanted the sulcata that was put down just didn't want to give up their paycheck stubs and social security numbers

 

[egyptiandan]

Why can't I find these customers that want to give my offspring back
No one has ever offered to give back any of my hatchlings and anyone that wanted to sell them was asking more money than what I sold them for.
For all the reasons and more that Tyler has mentioned, I have never gotten a tortoise from a rescue. I'm just not good with people telling me what I can and can't do with animals in my possession. I would much rather buy an animal and I have from people I know that want to pare down.
A friend I know from another forum that had a mismatched pair of Hermanns tortoises needed to sell them. I had told her before that I was interested if she did. She had gotten the female from a petshop. Someone had turned her in and she paid $50 for her. She's not been grown well, but is 8" SCL and very flat. She needed money and said she needed to get $400 for the pair. I didn't bat an eye and told her I'd take them. They have both gone on to produce offspring. I have no problem paying more than someone else paid as long as there are no strings attached.
It is though, without a lot of room, hard to house a full grown male sulcata. I would have to say most people that buy one aren't equipped to do that when they buy a hatchling. Maybe breeders need to hatch sulcatas out at a warmer temperature to produce more females. That would definately help out with the housing end of keeping a sulcata.
Breeders though are a funny lot or is it greedy or maybe egotistical. Most breeders in the day (way back when) didn't want to produce females as that would let other people breed what they are breeding. This definately happened with Marginated tortoises when they were first being bred. Back 25 to 30 years ago you never heard of a female Marginated being sold and I hadn't heard of anyone that raised up a hatchling getting a female. I raised up quite a few and only ever had males. You see a lot more females now for sale with the breeders not caring that other people will be breeding them.

Just my thoughts

Danny

 

[Jacqui]

Love some of the points being made and the variety of them.

I had noticed a site for snappers that openly offered to take back all the turtles who grew too big for the owners. I saw this as a person using his head. You sell a small hatchling and let somebody invest their time and money into growing it. Then you get back a big animal to either use as a breeder or sell it to somebody buying animals for either breeders or food. Give the person another hatchling and repeat the process. About the same thing as kids raising calves (or other livestock) or seeing eye dogs.

I agree some rescues do seem to put you thru a huge amount of trouble to get one of their animals. Still I think they are doing it to insure (in their standards) you are the best person for the animal. Doesn't mean it's true and often it does feel like they look hard to find a little flaw in folks, but overall they aren't as bad as most of the dog rescues I have been around.

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

This is a great topic ! I think sulcatas are awesome and for the right person they can make very very very good pets. So someone should breed them. But I think that they are mass produced and some times sold with disregard for the animal.

 

[Yvonne G]

I agree in that they do deserve a happy healthy life in captivity, but these rescues enthusiastically go get tortoises from people as soon as they become 2% difficult for them to maintain, then horde them so they can pat themselves on the back because they're saving the planet.

Excuse me!! "Horde them"????? I can't wait to find a forever home for the male sulcatas that I take in. And yes, I do rush right over to get them when I receive the call that they don't want them anymore, because if I don't make it easy for them to turn them in, they might just go out into the country and let him go. But keep them for myself? NEVER!!! I have one of my own and that's plenty for me. I live on an acre of land and that's just not enough room to keep all the sulcatas that I take in. I've said it before, it IS hard to find good homes, but its not impossible. The longest I've ever had to keep a sulcata was a month.

Yvonne

 

[TylerStewart]

Calm down, I wasn't necessarily talking about you. I do know of at least one rescue that gets occasional sulcatas (out of my state), and they don't care to turn them over to other people; yes hording them, until someone makes an "adoption fee" offer that is high enough. Others I see online seem similar, as if they're in no hurry. They certainly aren't actively trying to find homes. But like was said, you can't expect people to invite you into their lives and drop by once a week to check on them just so you can place a tortoise with them (again, not referring to you, just rescues in general). People would rather just go buy one without the hassle if they're paying a fee anyways. I completely understand the concern to find them a good home, but a list of questions, interviews, interrogations etc is just too much.

 

[Yvonne G]

Naturally, I can only speak for myself, but I THINK that the CTTC adoptions are pretty much like mine. All we want to know for sure is that the tortoise is going to a safe home. We don't care about anything else besides the safe place for the tortoise to live out the rest of its life. And both CTTC and I don't charge any kind of fee.

It sounds to me as if you have had a bad experience with a rescue. But we're not all bad. Most of us are just trying to do right by the animals we take in. (and money or fees aren't an issue. I don't even take donations unless its tortoise food.)

Yvonne

 

[TylerStewart]

I just don't want to see this turn into a "protest sulcatas - or sulcata breeding" thread. They didn't do anything wrong.

Someone needs to stick up for them

 

[JourneyTort]

I agree in that they do deserve a happy healthy life in captivity, but these rescues enthusiastically go get tortoises from people as soon as they become 2% difficult for them to maintain, then horde them so they can pat themselves on the back because they're saving the planet.

Rescues are not all that bad. I believe there are a few that could possibly rescue for egotistical purposes but sooner or later it will catch up with them, don't you think? How can they house a lot of sulcata properly? Most rescues, I am sure, are doing it for one thing and one thing only for the tort. At least someone is looking out for these guys that breeders profit off. Just on these Tort lists I have read people owning sulcata and having to re-home/sell because of circumstances (the torts just happened to be quite a bit bigger) and then a year later they are back at it again with hatchlings and they don't have the property to house when they are older so hang in there and maybe you can rescue these guys (tic). Do they learn from their mistakes? Sulcata's are a dime a dozen and are just too easy to obtain.

You can't possibly expect everyone that produces something to be responsible for it forever. How would a dog breeder or anyone that produces anything live or not possibly do that? By openly giving people the option of returning something at any time in the future, you completely eliminate the need for people to make an educated decision before buying one.

I do expect everyone that produces torts be responsible for it for as long as they (the breeder) lives. Since you brought up the topic of dog breeders, believe me “responsible” dog breeders do expect to be contacted and the dog returned if circumstances change with the dog owner. They take FULL responsibility for what they produce. It is even in their contract to puppy buyers. I know as I have signed 3 such contracts from 3 different breeders. I wouldn’t expect anything less. And these RESPONSIBLE breeders don’t breed for the sake of breeding they usually have a waiting list and homes for their pups as well as breeding for themselves first and amazingly enough there is not a bunch of adult dogs dumped at the breeders’ doors when these puppies turn into adults. Dog breeders that don’t take responsibility for what they produce and produce in mass quantities are called puppy mills and they are the lowest of the low (i.e. scum). So people have proven to be able to make an educated decision for themselves and provide the proper care for the animals life.

You're not going to eliminate the demand for baby tortoises, so you might as well focus on educating people towards proper care.

How about pushing smaller torts in their view together with education rather than the sulcata? Smaller torts are much easier to rehome, transport, etc.

Not sure why it matters, but I sell nationally and a small percentage locally. Las Vegas is a good place for tortoises, but most people here in the market for one don't know me, and I don't particularly like to sell locally. My website explains which species are better suited to different climates, and takes you through two separate disclaimers about the size and potential yard destruction that comes with the purchase of a sulcata before you buy one.

It matters if you sell locally or nationally because you stated you are willing to take in rescues locally but there doesn't seem to be any (after having said you mainly sell nationally), why wouldn’t you rescue nationally, you may even be rescuing a sulcata that you produce.

As I've said before, I have checked local shelters, and there are no sulcatas or tortoises in them (unless I'm missing one). To compare it to the over-population of dogs and cats is completely innacurate. The fact that somewhere, sometime, someone had to put down a sulcata or two because they were unable to find an appropriate home for it does not mean there's not thousands of people out there that would gladly place it in a good home. Maybe the people that wanted the sulcata that was put down just didn't want to give up their paycheck stubs and social security numbers

I never compared it to the over-population of dogs and cats as it would probably never get that bad as the torts would die in a shelter situation because they aren’t equipped nor do they have the know how to look after a full grown tort.

I ask again, how many full grown sulcata are you able to sell compared to hatchlings??

 

[TylerStewart]

All I'm saying is that if someone was to dump 5 adult sulcatas on me, I could (if I had to) find good, suitable homes for them all within a week. It might take shipping to do that or it may not, but it's not like there's no suitable homes for them.

I do expect everyone that produces torts be responsible for it for as long as they (the breeder) lives

What I said was that by openly giving people the option of returning something at any time in the future, you completely eliminate the need for people to make an educated decision before buying one, and that is a completely true statement. There's a difference between taking back a tortoise that someone offers, and telling them before purchase that you will take it back if they can't handle it. On top of this, you have no way of knowing that it's even the tortoise you produced in the first place. Even with excellent record keeping, you would very likely lose track of names, or tortoises would trade hands. You would then essentially be volunteering to take back any sulcata, with no way to verify that it even came from you. The size and difficulties (if any) wouldn't show up for many years down the road.

I ask again, how many full grown sulcata are you able to sell compared to hatchlings??

Well, since I have only a few larger sized tortoises that I would be willing to part with (and many more babies that I'm actively selling), it's not a fair comparison. I was recently selling 2 young adult (15-16") male sulcatas on Kingsnake; one sold about a month ago for $375, the other sold yesterday for $350, both to good homes in warm climates. If there was some reason I needed them gone immediately, all it would take is a lower price, combined with the marketing I'm already doing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking rescues at all. Someone needs to be there to fill that task, and I appreciate that there's people willing to give their time and money for that. I myself have donated time, money and supplies to reptile rescues, as well as donating hundreds of pounds of dog food to animal shelters locally in the past year; I just don't think that sulcatas are the problem that they are often made out to be.

 

[Yvonne G]

I just don't want to see this turn into a "protest sulcatas - or sulcata breeding" thread. They didn't do anything wrong.

Someone needs to stick up for them

I doubt we would do that. We have a forum-member here named Marla who breeds Sulcatas. I have never seen anyone bad mouth her for doing that.

Yvonne

 

[Marla]

Did someone mention my name...lol...Yes we all walk a fine line between Rescue, Breeder, Broker, Pet Store, and Pet Owner...There really is no problem with any of these...and they all are very needed..Its the people that make it or brake it...Sulcata's just happen to be the one breed that does the best as far as breeding (the **** roach of tortoises)I didn't say that....I have found with working rescue with many animals..dogs, reptiles, horses, birds, and ferrets, I did see hoarding alot and people just looking for free animals(it wasn't about the animal)...I stopped working with rescue because it was all about the money with MOST people..I didn't mind the people who wanted to feel like they were saving a little of the planet but the greed turned me off..So now I just maintain my little corner of the world and take in some and place some and sell some..I am only called a breeder because my animals like sex..lol..which give me babies which pays the vet and feed bill.....
I want to remind everyone that the over populated sulcata market has a long term impact on other tortoise breeds...because these wonderful animals give the demanding market place cheap babies for the customers...Many many breeds in the wild in other countries are left alone..If people could not buy sulcata's they would only buy others and the plight of many close to endanger tortoises would be depleted..Our sulcatas are sacrificing themselves for the wild tortoises all over the world.. Geezzzzz that was a mouth full..

 

[egyptiandan]

I'm going to have to disagree a bit about sulcatas helping the plight of other endangered tortoises Marla.
Having captive born sulcatas available is definately helping the wild populations of sulcatas, but it isn't helping any of the other tortoises.
Sulcatas appeal to the first time tortoise keeper, but not a keeper that has branched out into other species. Until each particular species is bred in enough quantity to satisfy demand, than wild caught animals will still be bought. That's just the nature of the beast that is tortoise keeping.

Danny