regulation for Sulcatas?

[ALDABRAMAN]

I think the last thing our government needs is more regulation on anything.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Like Tom said, you must have missed the past debates on this where it was all sorted through. I have yet to see a rescue that has more than the occasional sulcata that would give them up easily.

Obviously I did. I acknowledged this already, and I'm sorry to hear there are such poor rescues out west.

That's got nothing to do with the regulation that I was referring to.... I understand that lots of sulcatas die. I understand that there will always be people out there that take one in and aren't prepared for it. Nobody is ever going to argue that it doesn't happen, but "doing the math" doesn't mean anything to this conversation because I was talking about whether or not a law or rule should be imposed on someone. If they attempted to regulate anything about sulcatas, there would be a huge number of them still trading hands that are not going to be regulated. It's impossible to sort through them all. We all know they produce a lot. It hasn't seemed to matter because the demand is still significantly higher for all sizes. I can't keep them in stock LOL.

Sorry to disagree, but I think "doing the math" DOES mean something to this topic, and some of your statements above actually help prove my point. The whole point of me bringing up the whole regulation thing was my concern that too many are either going unwanted or die prematurely (mostly likely from poor care).

Now, I retract my initial insinuation that there are "hundreds and thousands" of homeless sulcatas all across the country living boring lives in crowded shelters. But you said it yourself, "lots of sulcatas die" and "there will always be people out there that take one in and aren't prepared for it." That's the main issue here.

I understand regulation is unfair, unrealistic, and un-enforcable. It simply won't work for reasons others have already described. But the impression I get from your last statement there is: If people are having problems with their sulcatas, it isn't your problem; i.e. as long as people keep buying 'em, you'll keep breedin' and selling them.

Which goes back to my querie of: how many babies sold (or given away at the street corner, as you say) make it past their first year?

How would that ever be enforced? Beyond hoping for that now, is someone going to be assigned to stand in between a buyer and seller and make sure everyone plays by the rules?

No. It's something only the seller can enforce on themselves. What I meant was that if you come across someone and have a conversation with them, and you get the feeling that a sulcata may not be the right tortoise for them, should/would you refuse the sale? Have you (not you personally but anyone who sells) ever have the experience where you sold an animal, and as the customer walked away, you had the slimy feeling of "You know, that animal probably won't last a month in that person's care." THAT'S that situation I'm talking about. And again, I'm not necessarily singling out sulcatas here, I've posed the same question to dealers who sell large constrictors, and monitors, and iguanas, etc.

I want to start a new poll:
1. No regulation is needed.
2. Government should put itself further into debt to battle this crisis.
3. Some rules might be nice, but I realize that nobody has the time to deal with it, so no regulation is needed.
4. Screw it, I'm moving to Panama.

Go ahead! Although I may vote for moving to Belize!

 

[BrookeB]

I just have one question... I am a new owner and all but I HAVE been looking to "save" a male sulcata for the past 2 months and I have not found a "rescue" in my area that is over run with any sulcatas... I mean there are 3 sulcatas on craigslist and a leo at the pound near me but thats all I was able to find... If that is really the problem I would say it's not much of an issue.. seeing as there are 1000s of dogs at the pound around my area... or even 100s of RES at the pound... I may not know what I am talking about but if they do make a law it would probable only make it harder for the people who are doing things "right" or tring to help... but idk

 

[dmmj]

In california most of the rescues tend to go to the local CTTC. You see people on CL selling them, but the CTTC does no fee adoptions.

 

[TylerStewart]

Sorry to disagree, but I think "doing the math" DOES mean something to this topic, and some of your statements above actually help prove my point. The whole point of me bringing up the whole regulation thing was my concern that too many are either going unwanted or die prematurely (mostly likely from poor care).

Now, I retract my initial insinuation that there are "hundreds and thousands" of homeless sulcatas all across the country living boring lives in crowded shelters.

But you said it yourself, "lots of sulcatas die" and "there will always be people out there that take one in and aren't prepared for it." That's the main issue here.

Just because I understand the reality of it doesn't mean I like it or agree with it.

I understand regulation is unfair, unrealistic, and un-enforcable. It simply won't work for reasons others have already described. But the impression I get from your last statement there is: If people are having problems with their sulcatas, it isn't your problem; i.e. as long as people keep buying 'em, you'll keep breedin' and selling them.

Which goes back to my querie of: how many babies sold (or given away at the street corner, as you say) make it past their first year?

Sorry, I misunderstood that this was an unbiased poll. If the intent was to locate a group of people that agreed with your idea that there should be regulation, I assumed that would have been pointed out in the original post.

But the impression I get from your last statement there is: If people are having problems with their sulcatas, it isn't your problem; i.e. as long as people keep buying 'em, you'll keep breedin' and selling them.

Not sure where in the world you got that impression. I have never seen anyone more willing to take back a previously-sold tortoise than I am. I bought back at full price a large group of cherryheads I had previously sold, as well as burmese browns recently. You apparently also missed the thread where I registered "SulcataRescue.com" where I openly will take in any unwanted sulcatas. It's still in the works, and my prediction is that there will never be tortoises in my rescue, but I am here to save the world with it anyways. Don't get all excited and defensive, it's all going to be ok. Sometimes we all need to be reminded "it's a freaking internet forum." At least the people threatening to beat me up because I hurt their feelings in the forum have mostly stopped.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

It IS an unbiased poll. I don't care one bit if anyone agrees with me (totally used to it). In fact, I probably agree with you and Tom more than you think.

You are correct in that it is just the internet. This was just a stupid meaningless poll that won't matter a hill of beans tomorrow. I wasn't expecting everyone to agree with every one of my points, and I had a feeling I was going to ruffle some feathers.

I've only been here less than a year, so you're right: there's a lot that I have missed. I had no idea you registered SulcataRescue.com. Kudos to you. And I am with you in hopes that you never have to take in a single animal.

I still stand by some of my points in that sellers in general should take more responsibility with all the animals they offer. Tom's right: its a case-by-case thing. Its not something the govt can fix. Its something WE as the responsible faction of the herp community can fix.

 

[froghaven5]

I have to admit that my family went to a reptile show and saw all the baby tortoise and on "impulse" bought our baby sulcata. We really loved the leopard, but did not want to spend the money they were charging. We were not given a care sheet. Fortunately we immediately went on line and found TFO. Now if there was a "waiting period" we may have thought about the decision to begin caring for a tortoise a bit more carefully. We were well aware of the size sulcatas can get, but maybe not as aware of the care they need.

 

[Tom]

Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to Western rescues. Many of them are this way all over the country. I happen to know of at least one rescue out West where the person running it takes in tortoises and actually offers them out to good homes, without charging a fortune or making anyone sign ridiculous contracts. This is why I carefully phrase it as "some" rescues or even "most rescues" when I have something negative to say. There are really people out there helping tortoises in need, but there are also some people with maniacal ideas in their heads who end up hoarding large numbers of them for a variety of reasons. This is not a Western phenomenon, it is a national one.

---

In california most of the rescues tend to go to the local CTTC. You see people on CL selling them, but the CTTC does no fee adoptions.

How many sulcatas would you guess your chapter sees in a typical year, Cap'n?

 

[Jacqui]

I think the breeders (and this is not just with sulcatas) of any kind of animal should ask questions of buyers and decide from the answers, IF a person should be able to get the animal. I think those questions should be in depth enough to count as a test.

The area I live in is lucky in one way and that is there are not a lot of turned in tortoises. However the ones I have saw or heard of in the last few years, have been lead with sulcata being the most common followed then by Russians and last Redfoots. Except for a couple of sulcatas that as I recall were from a drug or maybe abuse case, the rest were the, "I saw these adorable little hatchlings and just had to buy them as they were so cheap..... now they are getting to be big and troublesome...". I am only hearing normally about a couple each year. Not large numbers, but also keep in mind that keeping an adult in this area is a major undertaking, so even a few does create a large problem.

I don't think the government should be making laws or enforcing them, but sadly I do not think the majority of the breeders and sellers of these cute little creatures are going to regulate themselves either. Yes, the "good" ones will, but those folks are few and far between. I really don't think there is a way to get breeders/sellers to regulate themselves... talking the "bad" ones here. To them the money is primary concern and I can understand that for them it's a business. It's hard to look past today's sells and needs to what the future may or may not hold.

As for rescues, like everything else in this world, there are good ones and bad ones. I know of a few, who won't even look at an application from me, based solely on where I live. Part of me can understand that, but to me knowledge and willingness to go beyond the easy or normal to keep one should also weigh into the equation. I have saw pictures of a couple of "rescues" where personally I think the animals need to be rescued from them. I dislike doing the paperwork and always feel like my care or enclosures will not stack up, be it for a sulcata or a hingeback, but I do like the fact that I am being made to "jump through the hoops".

 

[tortoiselady]

How many sulcatas would you guess your chapter sees in a typical year, Cap'n?


[/quote]

I can't answer for Cap'n Chapter, but I can for me and my CTTC chapter. I am currently holding 4 small sulcatas and I have 3 more large ones begging me to take them in. Oh, that is just the sulcata count for March. Our chapter does not have any place to put them. They do require some space and quarantine from each other - we just don't have a piece of land and a building to work from. 100% volunteer workers and we do not charge a dime - happy to take in tax deductible donations as it is impossible to keep up with the vet bills from the poorly cared for tortoise of ALL kinds that we do see. We do require seeing your yard in person because we really don't want them back (they need good permanent homes), and people have lied over and over again about how BIG their property really is - NOT. An apartment or townhouse courtyard is not going to hold that 100 pound male I need a home for. With that said I am not going to be driving to Arizona to see your yard and deliver you a sulcata. We hope to actually place them in Southern California where they already are.

Note: I personally hate big government so I hope people can be more responsible and police themselves. Enjoy the rest of the debate

 

[bfmorris]

StudentoftheReptile wrote:
I could say the same about green iguanas, or large monitor lizards.

haha, Why stop at reptiles, I could say the same thing about the large number of people who cant keep their dogs behind a fence, or on a leash, or we could ponder why a disproportionate number of pitbull owners appear to be outwardly, a couple bricks short the load.

The OP of this thread looks like an ideologically driven solution in search of a problem. No thanks.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Lots of great points made in this thread so far, and I'm humble enough to admit that my initial assertions were a bit dramatic. The "overpopulation theory" has apparently already been debunked before my time, and I apologize for reviving ancient history.

The OP of this thread looks like an ideologically driven solution in search of a problem. No thanks.

No, the problem was, is, and likely will always be there. No searching necessary. As Tyler said it himself, lots of baby sulcatas still die all the time and there are always going to be people impulse-purchasing cute baby tortoises who have no idea what they're getting into, and have no desire to learn.

Is this exclusively an issue with sulcatas? Of course not. Is having the govt getting involved going to make anything any better? Nope, probably make things worse. I'm not naive or "idealistic" enough to think otherwise. I'm with you guys; less Big Brother, the better.

My point is that whatever we're doing now is not working. This "out of sight, out of mind" mentality isn't any more effective than having the feds come in and start regulating everything we do. The whole "Well, I'm the good guy; its the guy next to me who is the problem. I'll just focus on what I'm doing and hope for the best" outlook isn't shaping up that well either.

If govt regulation isn't the answer (which I know it isn't), what is? Simply educating folks isn't enough...at least not in my book. Do I have the answer? Not really. Is there even an answer? Perhaps not. Are there more important things in this world to worry about that whether or not certain shouldn't keep tortoises? Indeed. Call me prejudice, but I'm just a guy who hates hearing about neglected animals in the hands of idiots and wants to find a solution. We don't want govt getting involved. So what's the alternative?

 

[Tom]

NOW we are on the same page! I'm hoping that what seemed like a call for more government involvement was an attempt to stimulate discussion.

Nobody wants to see tortoises, or any other animal, subjected to bad care due to ignorance, complacency or neglect. Even the people doing it are not happy about it.

That this happens is a sad fact of human nature. I don't see anything that can be done about it except to try and educate people. I do this on a daily basis. I do it here. I do it at work. I do it where ever I see dried up tortoises on rabbit pellets...

It took time for every body to learn to keep them dry because they come from a desert area. It will take time for them to learn that that was wrong. The harder me, you and everyone else tries to spread the word, the faster this transition will take place. We need a rich benefactor to put up billboards and do television commercials. We can start a national "Give your thirsty tortoise a drink" day, to bring attention to the plight of the baby sulcatas in this country. Not everybody will hear it. Not everybody will abide by it. But I don't see anything else that can reasonably work. Its just like dogs. I tell everyone not to try and make a backyard pet out of a working dog, but it happens all over the country and the dogs and the people suffer. Tell everyone. Its easier to just walk by and not get involved and thats what most people do. I say DON'T just walk by. Talk to the manager about "hatchling failure syndrome" and dehydration. If he's not receptive, go talk to the care taker who does the hands on work. Sometimes they are receptive. Talk to breeders. Everyone on this forum who bought a baby from a breeder or a pet shop who is still participating in the tortoise dark ages, call or email them and let them know you are not happy and they need to learn. Everyone needs to spend some of their time to help eradicate this problem... And to the people who keep buying from these dry routine breeders. STOP IT!!! Buy from someone who starts them right. Hit the baddies where it hurts. In their wallet. They will learn so fast your head will spin when it affects their bottom line...

 

[Jacqui]

Okay, since this is a debate thread....

IF we do nothing, then those breeding sulcata will keep on breeding. Meanwhile more and more sulcata are reaching the breeding agewith more and more people learning how to take it from egg to hatchling and thus will soon be adding even more sulcata hatchlings onto the market.

IF as some think, we are improving the care of hatchlings and the lack of "proper" care is why so many die at this stage of life, then we should be seeing more and more hatchlings survive and grow up. That would mean in a few years a huge, even bigger influx of adults from these "saved" current hatchlings to make more hatchlings.

Sooo following this same "what if" scenario, it seems currently rescues are often just keeping up with the supply and demand for rescue sulcata, if we have an increase in them will that still hold true? At what point is the placement situation going to fail to keep up with the out put from breeders, if nothing is done to change things? What may be currently a small problem, could easily in ten years (or less) become a much more major one at this rate.

 

[bfmorris]

Lots of great points made in this thread so far, and I'm humble enough to admit that my initial assertions were a bit dramatic. The "overpopulation theory" has apparently already been debunked before my time, and I apologize for reviving ancient history.

The OP of this thread looks like an ideologically driven solution in search of a problem. No thanks.

No, the problem was, is, and likely will always be there. No searching necessary. As Tyler said it himself, lots of baby sulcatas still die all the time and there are always going to be people impulse-purchasing cute baby tortoises who have no idea what they're getting into, and have no desire to learn.

Is this exclusively an issue with sulcatas? Of course not. Is having the govt getting involved going to make anything any better? Nope, probably make things worse. I'm not naive or "idealistic" enough to think otherwise. I'm with you guys; less Big Brother, the better.

My point is that whatever we're doing now is not working. This "out of sight, out of mind" mentality isn't any more effective than having the feds come in and start regulating everything we do. The whole "Well, I'm the good guy; its the guy next to me who is the problem. I'll just focus on what I'm doing and hope for the best" outlook isn't shaping up that well either.

If govt regulation isn't the answer (which I know it isn't), what is? Simply educating folks isn't enough...at least not in my book. Do I have the answer? Not really. Is there even an answer? Perhaps not. Are there more important things in this world to worry about that whether or not certain shouldn't keep tortoises? Indeed. Call me prejudice, but I'm just a guy who hates hearing about neglected animals in the hands of idiots and wants to find a solution. We don't want govt getting involved. So what's the alternative?

Noop. Still a solution in search of a problem, now couched in a verbose wall of bombastic rhetoric.

 

[ascott]

Student, your intent is good here. There will be no outcome here that will resolve cruelty against reptiles.

It is all too common for humans to disregard. It is all too common for the human species to believe we have a greater right than all things we can easily disregard. It is sadly too common for humans to think we as a species are so much more important and superior than every other living creature that grace this earth. Humans are the only species that kill and torture our own, simply for the fun and thrill of it.

So, while there are a lot of horrid people that are part of the human species, there are also some that do wonderful actions to try to balance that horrible nature of the human species.

I believe this is yet another example of the good and not so good in the human species....there will be folks that do what is responsible and right as a human to do and then there will be those that go out and take ownership of another living creature and when "done" or "bored" with it, they disregard it...and simply go out and acquire "a new one".

Student, you go right ahead and start all the polls you can come up with...you go ahead and spark conversation for the sake of conversation...sometimes the spark is what is needed to get awareness out in the world. When someone wants to not be called to the carpet on an issue they will attempt to thwart your spark by making negative, sarcastic, idiotic statements and then attempt to disregard you.

Don't be disregarded my friend....we are all responsible for the bad that is created at the hands of our species even if not personally by our own hands...and as long as folks still find that some things are offensive and make your stomach turn...then there is still hope that change can come about....

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Thanks for the response, Angela.

I know creating polls on forums, and sharing emotion-pricking images on Facebook, etc., do very little to bring about the changes I'm referring to. My general intent here (as well as anywhere else herp-related, including my blog, other herp forums, etc) is to get people thinking...or "RE-thinking" to be more precise. Whether it's advances in proper husbandry, or educating the public, or just getting a person to realize that snakes aren't "evil" is my goal.

If I see something wrong with the system, I am going to point it out. That's why this thread exists. Again, I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but at the same time, it was "Is there really nothing else that can be done here?" kinda thing. Everyone who reads the thread can take it as they will, and I'm fine with that.

 

[acrantophis]

Unfortunately who you sell to as a breeder is sometimes a difficult topic. In the 80's and 90's, iguanas were a popular and "cheap" pet. And as a result I began an iguana rescue. Years later I began a large scale poison dart frog breeding facility. I was extreme picky as to who I sold to, but I'm sure many met an untimely death. The same goes for a large colony of bearded dragons and uromastyx. Selectively breeding for color allowed me to raise my prices and keep the novices away. In the pet industry cheap animals rarely are placed in suitable enclosures. A proper iguana enclosure should be exponentially more expensive than said animal. Sadly I took in so many iguanas with all stages of metabolic bone diseases.
I couldn't see any more animals go to unfit homes. I have retired completely from any breeding. It's not worth the stress. I love my animals and their progeny too much to send them to their potential doom.
Asking the government to get involved is a bad idea. They are the people responsible for the 4" turtle law! And they completely banned the sale of any turtle or tortoise in new jersey. They are uninformed. The government makes broad sweeping laws without any thought or information. Because of the pythons in the Everglades you cannot transport any large constrictors over any state line! So I can't sell a python to someone in Oregon?! As if a population of pythons will somehow learn to hibernate? I prefer to keep the government out of the loop!

 

[Yvonne G]

The majority of people who contact me looking to adopt a tortoise are looking for "one of those that get really big." And just looking at the questions here on the forum asked by sulcata newbies...why isn't my sulcata growing bigger?...how big will he get?...how long does it take for him to get big?...makes you realize that a very large tortoise is somewhat of a status symbol to some people. Just like those weird snake people who want a giant snake. Its something they really really want, but have absolutely no clue what it means to have it once it gets too big to handle, or so big it tears up the yard. There's just no way you are going to reach these people. They have to find out for themselves.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Because of the pythons in the Everglades you cannot transport any large constrictors over any state line! So I can't sell a python to someone in Oregon?! As if a population of pythons will somehow learn to hibernate? I prefer to keep the government out of the loop!

This is not entirely accurate. The only species prohibited for interstate travel are Burmese pythons, African rock pythons (both northern & southern) and yellow anacondas. The interstate travel (whether it be shipping, or simply driving in your own car, or even carrying the snake in a bag while walking) is still perfectly legal for reticulated pythons, ball pythons, blood pythons, carpets, red-tail boas, green anacondas, etc...anything besides those 4 species I first mentioned. I can elaborate if you want in a PM but just wanted to clarify the misconception that "any large constrictor" was illegal to transport.
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Thanks for responding, though! You are correct; Any govt interference in reality is not a good idea.