Coconut Oil

[Yourlocalpoet]

If you feel this doesn't benefit your particular circumstances then so be it. You dont need to listen to me or my opinions. I am not here to change the way you personally care for your tortoise . I am looking for new ideas that we as humans have not thought of yet to make our companions thrive to the best to their ability. I am merely presenting my case. I see a problem with indoor set ups enclosed or open table top that allows these lamps to take much needed Moisture away from indoor kept tortoises. For anyone to say that you know how hydrated a tortoise is just guessing based on observation. And is probably inaccurate Many .many years ago we thought animal protein was the proper diet for tortoises. And of course that couldn't be farther from the truth. Maybe we are wrong to think no harm comes from indoor enclosures and the baking affects of these lights.

I completely agree, which is why I said in my first post that I applaud your endeavours. It is obvious from your posts that you are passionate about this topic, and to me it seems like as a result you are taking my interest and debate as some kind of attack? I'm not in any way trying to debunk your observations/research or simply sit ignorant to further understanding, I am for the most part just trying to understand the method and offering a different perspective.

I wonder if you'd consider setting your tortoise up in an enclosed habitat to see the difference it makes to humidity levels and drying effects? In the summer I run one incandescent light bulb (45w I think) and a 50w CHE on a thermostat at night. That's it. In the winter I have an 80w MVB and the same CHE at night. In a closed habitat my need for those moisture sucking lights is decreased, thus less light/heat to dehydrate. Humidity varies from 50 - 70 depending on water spillage, pee, plant watering etc. When she was a baby - juvenile I used a heating pad only in the summer as all UV was from outside and in the winter, the lowest watt incandescent I could find and a tube UVB light. I have always had a closed chamber. Perhaps this is why I have never had any noticeable dry shell problems? Of course her shell gets dry occasionally, but that's true indoors or out.

I don't think the animal protein/ hydration analogy is quite true. Optimal humidity, soaking and a lack of urates, for me does tell me my reptile is hydrated. That is what I can see so I don't think my observation is inaccurate. Her pretty smooth shell and not one single problem or vet visit since she was a baby also gives me some kind of confirmation that my husbandry is adequate.

Regardless, it's interesting all the same.

 

[glitch4200]

Taken from here. From Testudoresearch

"Keratin has many interesting and valuable properties. One of these is that it is hygroscopic and takes up water in equilibrium with atmospheric humidity (Spearman, 1973). Keratin becomes notably pliable in the presence of high humidity and high temperatures (Shelley, 1954). This property was routinely exploited in the working of objects made from tortoiseshell, obtained from the carapace of the critically endangered Hawksbill turtle (Eretmochelys imbricata). The same property will also be familiar to anyone who takes a hot bath: human toe and fingernails respond in a similar manner. Veterinary problems associated with “wet foot” are also common in equines, where the keratin of the hoof may become over soft and vulnerable to trauma and infection if the animal is maintained on an excessively wet substrate (Reca, 2005). Similar issues have been identified with the beta-keratin of Ostrich claws when subjected to varying levels of ambient humidity (Bonser, 2000). Studies conducted on a wide range of keratins suggest that at relative humidity levels above 80% and below 20% profound changes in both the molecular structure and mechanical properties of keratins occur (Leeder and Watt, 1965, Duer, et.al. 2003). At levels of relative humidity above 80% absorption of water molecules by keratin is considerable (Leeder and Watt, 1965), and this has a very significant effect upon the mechanical properties of the scute, resulting in a major degree of softening and reduction in stiffness. The effect of increasing humidity on the Young’s modulus of keratin was profound, with 410MPa at 100% RH and 3.36 GPa at 53% RH. (Bonser, 2002). The effect of humidity on a wide range of keratins shows a consistent reduction in stiffness and in hardness as humidity and hydration is increased (Fraser and MacRea, 1980, Tombolato, et. al 2010). These effects occur both in vitro and in vivo. In living animals with a horny keratinised hoof or scute, the interior of the keratin layer, adjoining the proximal germinative region, maintains a high level of hydration, and the outer surface (unless the animal is in water) will attempt to equilibriate to the lower, prevailing ambient level (Bertram and Gosline, 1987). The thicker the keratin layer the greater the potential for an increased differential between the two surfaces.

OK.... we now, for the first time have a direct and verifiable link between a tortoise's tissue and external environmental humidity.

So, when we subject a tortoise to very low external humidity, the very molecular structure of the keratin changes. It becomes stiffer and exerts a mechanical stress on the underlying bone. This becomes most acute if RH drops to circa 20%. Precisely those conditions do often exist directly beneath heat lamps. RH there can be incredibly low. I have recorded levels of 11%..... for sustained periods. This is far below what any 'desert' species would experience in nature. In addition... when discussing all this with Frances Baines (of the UV Guide), Frances alerted me to the fact that with the exception of some very special medical lamps, all normal reptile incandescent lamps are emitting high levels of IR-A. I will quote Frances directly:

"Sunlight (aldo) emits short-wavelength infrared (IR-A) which is filtered by the water vapour in the atmosphere. So it has been "drained" of energy in the wavelengths best absorbed by water.... in other words, the wavelengths which heat up water most strongly have already been removed from the sunlight before it hits the tortoise. The remaining wavelengths of IR-A penetrate gently and deeply into skin, muscle and bone and can warm an animal -literally - to the core. This beautiful "water-filtered IR-A" is what makes sunlight the perfect basking light.... as Andy says, warming the entire basking animal evenly and deeply.

On the other hand, incandescent lamps, halogen lamps, self-ballasted mercury vapour lamps, so-called "infrared" red bulbs... any lamp producing heat and light - also emit IR-A ...BUT.... there is only a tiny distance, usually less than a couple of feet, between lamp and reptile. You'd need maybe a mile of atmosphere to absorb those water-heating wavelengths.... So where is the first water those rays from a lamp encounter? Yep.... The water in and around the living cells of the reptile's skin, or in the case of the tortoise, in the living cells of its carapace".

So there we have another intense drying effect. Heating and driving water molecules from the keratin. I actually have a lot of data on this, but it is not really necessary to go into it in depth here.

The basic situation is quite simply that if you "bake" keratin you dry it. The drier it gets, the stuffer it gets, and the more mechanical stress it can exert on underlying, plastic bone. This is one explanation of why these ultra-dry enclosures are so especially damaging and are so frequently associated with very severe forms of "pyramiding".

One very interesting effect has been demonstrated in laboratory tests with chelonia. As they are subjected to extended periods of dehydration, the epidermis thickens in an attempt to reduce cutaneous evaporative losses. This affects the skin of the limbs, and in particular the proliferation of beta-keratin that comprises the horny scutes. As the animal is subjected to dehydration, the scute growth accelerates, becoming ever thicker. Bone growth however does not accelerate at the same rate, producing a major differential. This thickened, dry keratin begins to exert an enormously amplified force upon the skeleton (which in such animals is typically of very poor density). This is one other very important reason why we tend to see particularly badly deformed animals that have been raised in conditions of sub-optimal humidity. Where accelerated growth (and typically MBD) meets dangerously low levels of humidity the conditions are ideal for producing gross distortions of the carapace due to the conflicting physical stresses of muscular tension and tension resulting from over-proliferation of the keratin scutes.

Take the reverse situation. Subject the tortoise to high (80%+) levels of ambient humidity for extended periods. Keep it very warm. Soak/spray the carapace regularly. This too has a huge effect on the keratin as we have read above. It softens it. It changes the Young's Modulus dramatically. Physical stresses on the underlying bone are reduced.... the bones are not "pulled out of shape" by the keratin, and over-thick keratin is not generated. This is the prime physiological mechanism behind the "high humidity" maintenance system.

One big issue however, is that it can have the consequence of suppressing a symptom of MBD, while doing nothing to address the underlying situation. I say 'can'. I am not saying this is always or automatically the case. It is a risk, though. It can happen. It does not have any effect upon the need to generate high quality bone in the first place. If your nutrition or UVB is not adequate, MBD will still occur. The underlying bone will still be weak - even if it is not visibly deformed. All this does is remove or reduce the physical stress from keratin - it has no other effect.

Another potential problem is that wet keratin is much more vulnerable to bacterial and fungal attack. Again, human toenails can suffer for the same reasons! It is not an inevitable consequence, but it is most certainly a risk.. and I have seen such problems.

A quick summary to date.

Keratin proliferates differently between most aquatic turtles and terrestrial tortoises.

Keratin responds dramatically to changes in humidity and temperature (this is why human hairs were often used in humidity measuring devices).

If the bone is compromised due to MBD, or is very flexible as a result of new growth or the young age of the animal, it will deform far more readily than in a fully developed, older animal.

The specific stresses upon the underlying bone relating to keratin are two-fold; the proliferation of new beta-keratin cells at the edges of the scute that result in an uplifting force (Alibardi) on the older corneous center, and tensions resulting from expansion and contraction as a consequence of hydration status. Where the keratin has an excessively low moisture content and becomes stiff these stresses will be maximised, and where the moisture content is excessively high they will be minimised, as the keratin becomes increasingly soft and pliable."


This is what i am talking about and how its all connected.... Its laid out 100000% better then i could ever say.. Does anyone else see what i am trying to connect here?! How i believe something like EVCO can help make our animals thrive if used correctly..

 

[glitch4200]

Taken from here. By Testudoresearch

"Tom said:
For example, the info about the drying nature of our indoor heat bulbs. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was THAT bad."

"Yes, these heatlamps. They bother me. It bothers me even more I used them for years myself without fully understanding what they could do. Here's just one test result that shows how drastic their effect can be. We started here with 70% RH in an open room. We placed a 100w MVB lamp at 50 cm above 'ground zero' then ran an extended on-off cycle test. 'Ground zero' is where your tortoise would sit. Right under it. The peaks are ambient... the 'troughs' are switched-on periods. Note how it falls almost immediately... and stays there (<20% in this test) before rising again when turned off. Then plummeting down again the next time it is tuned on.

I call that pretty drastic, and frankly - scary. I freely confess when we started getting that data, that was the last time I personally used a basking lamp like that. Thousands of keepers are subjecting their tortoises to this every day and have no idea. When you add in Frances Baines' incredibly valuable observations on the unfiltered IR-A spectrum, it gets even worse. No wonder we are seeing a virtual 'epidemic' of deformed animals.

Not only that.... but you can see from this IR Thermograpy image that I took during the same test just how the very top of the carapace OVER heats... yet the body remains too cold. The heat distribution (especially in a tortoise of reasonable mass) is absolutely terrible.

At the same ambient background temperature (22C) this is the heat distribution pattern under natural sunlight, outdoors.

There is no comparison. It is completely different..... ""



ANYONE ELSE CONVINCED YET?!!

 

[Aunt Caffy]

I think my Rowan needs some. It's just an excuse to touch his shell.

Do you apply it to the plastron as well?

 

[glitch4200]

taken from here By: Testudoresearch

"Highly concentrated, narrow beam basking sources are without a doubt in my mind seriously problematic from several perspectives. We do face the practical difficulty than an 'ideal' alternative is not yet readily available. So we are looking at a compromise in indoor settings. If using lamps do not use them at too close a range and use the widest beam spread possible. Investigate alternatives such as 'dark' IR sources - large area panel radiators, for example. I am actually running some tests on those at the moment. They have some promise. They do need to be used in combination with a separate UVB source, of course. The idea is to avoid localized surface over-heating (and drying) with poor deep tissue penetration. What we really need is a directional, but very wide area source, with a good IR spectrum... ideally with water-filtered IR-A... but this just does not exist yet in any accessible form. Bottom line: we do not have a fully satisfactory solution yet. A lot of work has been done on artificial UVB, but this problematic IR issue has been pretty much ignored. That needs to change.

What you must avoid is this situation. 100w basking lamp humidity RH effect... down to 14.8% in this instance.

(that tiny peak you see there at exactly 11.00 am is surface evaporation seconds after the lamp is turned on... water molecules being driven off and out of your tortoise... then the levels drop through the floor and stay there until turned off)

and this...

instead... this is what we should see (wild tortoise thermography research)

 

[glitch4200]

Said by : Testudoresearch
"The specific stresses upon the underlying bone relating to keratin are two-fold; the proliferation of new beta-keratin cells at the edges of the scute that result in an uplifting force (Alibardi) on the older corneous center, and tensions resulting from expansion and contraction as a consequence of hydration status. Where the keratin has an excessively low moisture content and becomes stiff these stresses will be maximised, and where the moisture content is excessively high they will be minimised, as the keratin becomes increasingly soft and pliable."

My opinoin: I see a slight beginning to an uplifting "buckling effect" along the edges of the scutes around the vertebral and left sided scutes meeting those vertebral scutes. These first 2 pictures are when i first obtained this little guy mid october 2013. The last 2 pictures are taken as of yesterday after 3 weeks of EVCO and way way improved husbandry. You use to be able to feel the "bucking" along these ridges whereas now after only 3 weeks of EVCO application and more frequent soaking they seemed to have smoothed out a bit, take a look at this picture and you can see the differnece of the flattening of the edges personally through observation. Notice the differnce in color of the shell and body and how much more hydrated they look, the spacing of scutes, the absence of white dry lines, the corners that don't seem to "buckle" anymore. Notice the eyes and how they look way more hydrated. Notice the scales and there rich color now.. To me these are undeniable observations of positive effects from extra virgin coconut oil and its ability to help counteract the damage these lamps are causing.

 

[glitch4200]

So my family dog had a mild bacterial rash under his arms pits we took him to the vet. I have been fighting for EVCO it's amazing beneficial qualities on this thread for our tortoises and I told the vet and her team about Extra virgin coconut oil and it's antifungal and bacterial qualities. She was very interested in this natural product and if it could be applied to dogs and she decided to do a bunch or research along with talk to other vet professionals. A dermatologist who works at the place was very intrigued on my find gave the green light for application to Oliver my Nana dog. In 3 days of application it completely eradicated the bacterial rash. When the topical antibiotic didn't work. Needless to say the vets will now be using EVCO on their cats and dogs for mild bacterial and fungal infections instead of pharmaceuticals as a first line of defence... all thanks to pointing out this awesome information. I will be posting an update with pictures tomorrow on these evco applicstions but this goes to show I am on the right track with this natural oils potency and ability to be beneficial to ALL Animals

 

[glitch4200]

So I have here another notable observation since I started these weekly Extra virgin coconut oil applications. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I wanted to see it these applications lessened the stress of the shell from the drying effects of the lamps as well as seeing if it has any effect on to further smooth out his shell, particularly this dent that he has on the back corner scute was very prominent when I got him but after taking pictures this morning I see a noticeable difference in this particular scute. It's rounding out.. and becoming more flush with the other scutes .. the divet is noticeably smaller then before. I took took a few pictures at different angles to show this. It's pretty cool ..

 

[Alaskamike]

I've been watching this thread very carefully. Your research has been very good , at least the background info which is well grounded. There is no doubt in my mind that the overhead UVB lights have serious flaws in replacing sunlight and heat. The concerns that applying EVCO is not " natural" have been answered well, considering indoor keeping of torts is not " natural" either.

It has been argued that basking areas need to have overhead heat to hit top of caprice , as this best simulates natural heat from the sun. But as you have amply explained , the drying effects from this are substantial, even in a relatively humid enclosure.

Being in South Florida myself, and raising my torts in an outside area with a heated box to go in when cold, this is not a problem I really have to contend with. The sun is out almost everyday and even on the coolest days they come out and sit for awhile in the sunshine. However , when I did have my baby leopards indoors at night I used a heating pad ( made for people ) under the coco- coir to keep their enclosed container at 85 with 80% humidity while they slept. I don't know why, but I've never been a fan of the heat lamps.

I have to say, after reading and following your experiment in husbandry ( antidotal as it is) I would be using EVCO once a week on the caprice if I raised them indoors. I do put it on their plastron once a week here for the anti bacterial and anti fungal properties now.

I believe you're on to something here. Good work. .
Mike

 

[glitch4200]

I've been watching this thread very carefully. Your research has been very good , at least the background info which is well grounded. There is no doubt in my mind that the overhead UVB lights have serious flaws in replacing sunlight and heat. The concerns that applying EVCO is not " natural" have been answered well, considering indoor keeping of torts is not " natural" either.

It has been argued that basking areas need to have overhead heat to hit top of caprice , as this best simulates natural heat from the sun. But as you have amply explained , the drying effects from this are substantial, even in a relatively humid enclosure.

Being in South Florida myself, and raising my torts in an outside area with a heated box to go in when cold, this is not a problem I really have to contend with. The sun is out almost everyday and even on the coolest days they come out and sit for awhile in the sunshine. However , when I did have my baby leopards indoors at night I used a heating pad ( made for people ) under the coco- coir to keep their enclosed container at 85 with 80% humidity while they slept. I don't know why, but I've never been a fan of the heat lamps.

I have to say, after reading and following your experiment in husbandry ( antidotal as it is) I would be using EVCO once a week on the caprice if I raised them indoors. I do put it on their plastron once a week here for the anti bacterial and anti fungal properties now.

I believe you're on to something here. Good work. .
Mike

Mike, I highly appreciate your valued support with my amateur research. To be honest I am blown a way this is working out like it is and being able to actually contribute to the tortoise community instead of just being a watcher of "threads" makes me really happy.

I want to set my hypothesis in stone on this thread right now.

*As previously laid out in earlier threads (scroll up) we can conclude the following based on backround researched info:

1. All IR-A producing lamps that are 1-2 ft above a enclosed chamber or open chamber table top have sustained humidity at very low "unnatural", "unhealthy" levels while turned on. (See graphs above)

2. In ANY indoor enclosure with the use of these lights , there is not enough atmospheric water vapor between the top of the tortoise and the base of lights for there to be sufficient absorption of water by IR-A rays to prevent "unfiltered" IR-As from leeching mass amounts of moisture from the shell and skin.

3. Unrefined Cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil is an all natural anti bacterial, anti fungal, anti inflammatory due to certain acids present in its oil. Its proven to enhance hair, nails and skin in humans going back thousands of years. Cellular abortion is excellent. It has also shown to have 90% efficiency as a sunblock against uv, uvb rays. It has also shown significant ability to help keratin effectively retain moisture (personal obsetvstion).

4. Observational data: I see maybe a couple degree difference in thermo regulation once EVCO is applied to shell vs not applying. But according to my temp readings it's very minimal difference. No extreme difference noticed after almost 4 weeks of application. I have noticed substancial difference in carapace and skin , in terms of color, softness, absence or dry lines, a reduction or flattening on noticeable divets in the shell. I have also noticed a lot more activity since application (related or not?)

So to wrap this up. I am stating with my premises backed up. That all indoor kept tortoises of every species that is exposed to these lights for extended periods of time and does not have access to an all natural outdoor enclosure the majority of the year with plenty of "filtered" IR-A should undeniably apply extra virgin coconut oil at bath time 2-3 times a week for the remainder of there indoor captivity to help ease the unnatural moisture loss and prolong there life. I can now say again with backed up research that not doing so seems to be a disservice to our lovely friends.

 

[glitch4200]

Moving forward... Unless someone out there reading this with knowledge on this issue, can find holes in the argument laid out in this thread. I would hope you call me out! I have tried to cement this idea and back all that I am saying up with real legit facts and data. I feel strongly in this hypothesis. It's a bold statement. But honestly I feel I could be missing something .. and I probably am. If you know what it is please do tell lol.. ! I am 25 years young and I dang well know I have a load to learn still. Enlighten me!
- Shaun

 

[tortadise]

I have not read the entire thread to be honest. But can I attempt to decided in a few sentences of what your doing?

Are you applying coconut oil to your tortoises shell in relation to Andys(testudoresearch) discrediting of research of uneven allocated heat from basking bulbs?

If so. This would be an interested test. Coconut oil is very good stuff. We use it for lots of things here. So does my mom. In nature tortoises are not as clean, as they would be in captivity like we keep. They cover themselves with layers of mud, some have moss that grows on them to cover there carapace.

Am I on the right track with your purpose? I'll eventually go back and read all of it.

Another thing you could try is clay. My mom being a doctor of natural medicines/remedies utilizes a very scarce "green clay" that comes from a dried up sea bed in France. This stuff is fantastic, and very rich in minerals and vitamins and antioxidants. I have used this on chelonians. But never the carapace or shell. I'd imagine using it on a tortoises shell would benefit somehow. But I wonder what the ramifications of applying anything on the tortoises carapace could be? Wouldn't we thing it would need some sort of exposure to elements to gain proper exposure of UV rays, fresh oxygen, water(rain) etc...

Just some thoughts on my behalf.

 

[glitch4200]

I have not read the entire thread to be honest. But can I attempt to decided in a few sentences of what your doing?

Are you applying coconut oil to your tortoises shell in relation to Andys(testudoresearch) discrediting of research of uneven allocated heat from basking bulbs?

If so. This would be an interested test. Coconut oil is very good stuff. We use it for lots of things here. So does my mom. In nature tortoises are not as clean, as they would be in captivity like we keep. They cover themselves with layers of mud, some have moss that grows on them to cover there carapace.

Am I on the right track with your purpose? I'll eventually go back and read all of it.

Another thing you could try is clay. My mom being a doctor of natural medicines/remedies utilizes a very scarce "green clay" that comes from a dried up sea bed in France. This stuff is fantastic, and very rich in minerals and vitamins and antioxidants. I have used this on chelonians. But never the carapace or shell. I'd imagine using it on a tortoises shell would benefit somehow. But I wonder what the ramifications of applying anything on the tortoises carapace could be? Wouldn't we thing it would need some sort of exposure to elements to gain proper exposure of UV rays, fresh oxygen, water(rain) etc...

Just some thoughts on my behalf.

Yes you are close .. Once you read the entire thing you will see how this developed into what it is now lol and this is why I love others input..

I didn't even mean to relate thermoregulation with Andys research and or even trying to discredit the fact that you can't achieve even heating as shown in his graphs. I wasn't even thinking of that..

That is a very interesting point though.. I have not seen the uneven heating displayed as extreme as shown in the graph.. Although I don't have the equipment to take that type of reading as he did. I based my temperatures off an IR gun I purchased, it works very well. I take temp readings constantly all day every day when I am home... His habitat is located by the base of my bed where I often have my smoke sessions. I have never seen such extreme differences. But I have my habitat laid out so he can cover any part of his body and still be exposed to the basking spot. So he can choose whatever way to heat up without having to stand directly underneath it heating just the very top of the caraspace. My thinking is weird..

Well, if the ramifications where there we should see some evidence in humans since we have been using it for ourselves for different aspects for a very long time. I know the ramifications of dehydration over a long period after doing much research here. I'll take the risk of these applications over not applying this oil for the rest of his life.

In terms of breathability, uv/uvb absorption and water.

I feel as though if it didn't allow for oxygen transfer you would see that and we as humans would probably not benefit since our skin and cells need oxygen to be healthy. If EVCO inhibited that process it wouldn't it kinda be detrimental to the whole idea of care?

I believe it was mentioned on here that since uvb, uv rays are absorbed by the skin not the shell that it wouldn't inhibit that process unless applied to the skin? Is that correct?

Also it was noted earlier that and I confirmed it as well that application of the oil to the shell repels water for a little bit, i definetly see that. But if they are being soaked 3x a week and are drinking from there water knowingly. I can assume he is pretty well hydrated.

I would love to get my hands on that green clay. Where can I obtain some?

 

[tortadise]

Yes you are close .. Once you read the entire thing you will see how this developed into what it is now lol and this is why I love others input..

I didn't even mean to relate thermoregulation with Andys research and or even trying to discredit the fact that you can't achieve even heating as shown in his graphs. I wasn't even thinking of that..

That is a very interesting point though.. I have not seen the uneven heating displayed as extreme as shown in the graph.. Although I don't have the equipment to take that type of reading as he did. I based my temperatures off an IR gun I purchased, it works very well. I take temp readings constantly all day every day when I am home... His habitat is located by the base of my bed where I often have my smoke sessions. I have never seen such extreme differences. But I have my habitat laid out so he can cover any part of his body and still be exposed to the basking spot. So he can choose whatever way to heat up without having to stand directly underneath it heating just the very top of the caraspace. My thinking is weird..

Well, if the ramifications where there we should see some evidence in humans since we have been using it for ourselves for different aspects for a very long time. I know the ramifications of dehydration over a long period after doing much research here. I'll take the risk of these applications over not applying this oil for the rest of his life.

In terms of breathability, uv/uvb absorption and water.

I feel as though if it didn't allow for oxygen transfer you would see that and we as humans would probably not benefit since our skin and cells need oxygen to be healthy. If EVCO inhibited that process it wouldn't it kinda be detrimental to the whole idea of care?

I believe it was mentioned on here that since uvb, uv rays are absorbed by the skin not the shell that it wouldn't inhibit that process unless applied to the skin? Is that correct?

Also it was noted earlier that and I confirmed it as well that application of the oil to the shell repels water for a little bit, i definetly see that. But if they are being soaked 3x a week and are drinking from there water knowingly. I can assume he is pretty well hydrated.

I would love to get my hands on that green clay. Where can I obtain some?

Ah yes very good indeed, I shall read through the entire thing and hopefully come back with more constructive verbiage. I was close though ha. I actually don't know much about the shell and it's anatomical relation to oxygen, mineral absorption etc.. I merely just used it for an example. It would be interesting to find out though, Andy did explain the "plasticity" level of keratin growth. During the new growth I'd like assume that UV particles would and could be absorbed into the fresh layer of "soft" new keratin growth, after all when comparing keratin growth in rhinos, and even humans vitamin d and lack of internal minerals can develop both finger nails and rhino horns with issues. So this could be possibly relevant to this coconut oil usage and it's relative beneficial possible gain of usage. That's definitely above my head. But none the less a good point to research.

I can ask my mom and steer you in the direction where to get some. It's good stuff.

 

[glitch4200]

Ah yes very good indeed, I shall read through the entire thing and hopefully come back with more constructive verbiage. I was close though ha. I actually don't know much about the shell and it's anatomical relation to oxygen, mineral absorption etc.. I merely just used it for an example. It would be interesting to find out though, Andy did explain the "plasticity" level of keratin growth. During the new growth I'd like assume that UV particles would and could be absorbed into the fresh layer of "soft" new keratin growth, after all when comparing keratin growth in rhinos, and even humans vitamin d and lack of internal minerals can develop both finger nails and rhino horns with issues. So this could be possibly relevant to this coconut oil usage and it's relative beneficial possible gain of usage. That's definitely above my head. But none the less a good point to research.

I can ask my mom and steer you in the direction where to get some. It's good stuff.

I wouldn't doubt that your correct. I don't doubt that these rays would not penatrate new pliable keratin, considering what I have read so far.

I appreciate the opinion.
Maybe I am wrong. But I ask myself what about very well hydrated shells? Could ultra hydrated tortoises and their shells allow for a more effective absorption of uv rays from these lamps in there shell while captive indoors since coconut oil seems to promote hydration which leads to softer more receptive keratin? Keratin is hydroscopic and absorbs water very well but also looses water to.. Could EVCO make it more receptive to beneficial uv light by making the keratin softer then it would being under dehydrating lamps?

Please I would highly appreciate it. I love cool stuff like that. Thanks

 

[tortadise]

I'm not certain that the hydration has any direct result to the keratin itself. It's the proper husbandry that allows the animal to thrive well thus allowing proper growth. Good diet, proper lighting, exercise develops the animal in a more healthy anatomical aspect thusly creating the "perfect" "wild like" shell. If any animal is started incorrectly they will have internal issues which would allocate a "survival" mode and begin declining. The shell is just bone connected with keratin and tissues that are a result of a healthy growing animal.

 

[glitch4200]

I'm not certain that the hydration has any direct result to the keratin itself. It's the proper husbandry that allows the animal to thrive well thus allowing proper growth. Good diet, proper lighting, exercise develops the animal in a more healthy anatomical aspect thusly creating the "perfect" "wild like" shell. If any animal is started incorrectly they will have internal issues which would allocate a "survival" mode and begin declining. The shell is just bone connected with keratin and tissues that are a result of a healthy growing animal.

Fair enough lol. My focus is on the husbandry aspect of these lamps in particular of indoor kept tortoises and there really potent dehydrated effect on the skin and shell. Proper lighting is crucial just as much as them being completely hydrated to carry out the necessary function of proper growth and development in all aspects. I am sure your well aware of the effects of dehydration on any animal. I would go into survival mode too if I was constantly being dehydrated by my unnatural enviornment.. Which is what is happening in indoor enclosures with the use of all lamps over a period of time.

Everything living organism needs water to function. And not just enough water to "survive" but enough to thrive and never be thirsty.. I feel these lamps inhibit certain aspects of an indoor kept tortoise and it's ability to never be fully "hydrated". Which looking at the data how can anyone who uses these lamps say that the humidity under these lamps is at a healthy sustained level.. Which compounded over years and years of indoor captivity, I feel problems would arise from that constant dehydration.

I am up to 4 soaks a week now. 3 of which involve a heady application of extra virgin coconut oil. My goal is to make him ultra hydrated. And I am noticing how much more active he is. 4x a week he sits in his bath all happy and chills for at least 15 minutes. He loves it.

 

[Hillman]

Yes refined means it was heat treated since it claims being organic so most likely their shouldn't be any other chemicals added. But you lose some of the amino acids and potency of the anti- properties of the oil .I went to massage school and you never ever buy refined massage oils the process destroys so many of the natural benifits of the oil. And decreases potency exponentially. I Always buy cold pressed oils.

I like the idea of getting our torts healthy and shinny at the same time.
I only have one concern, speaking of the amino acids, have we checked the pH value of both the coconut oil and the shell, i know human's skin is about pH5.5 and coconut oil works well on us, but how about on tortoise shell?

 

[glitch4200]

I like the idea of getting our torts healthy and shinny at the same time.
I only have one concern, speaking of the amino acids, have we checked the pH value of both the coconut oil and the shell, i know human's skin is about pH5.5 and coconut oil works well on us, but how about on tortoise shell?

From what I have gathered extra virgin coconut oil is made up of up to 98% saturated and unsaturated acids. Which makes it more acidic in nature. This is where the anti-fungal, bacterial, viral, and anti-inflammatory qualities come from in this oil. The type of acids this oil has are extremely potent.

I can't find an exact pH of the shell but it's made up of layered beta keratin. Which is a key ingredient for our skin and hair. And the main ingredient in our finger and toe nails which is alpha keratin. I would suspect. And this is my opinion.. that the shell would be relatively close to the pH of the skin, hair and nails in humans. When keratin gets saturated for extended periods of time it's more prone to fungal & bacterial infections. So naturally EVCO can help inhibit this if it occures. Idk if this helps. If anyone with chem & bio knowledge that knows more about this please chip in lol

Another thing i found really cool is i told my grandma's dog vet about EVCO and how it could possibly help Olivers skin with the slight bacterial infection. She was hesitant she explained that dogs skin is very pH sensitive and said she would consult with the other doctors which included a dermatologist about the oil . My grandma got a call from the vet a week later and said that it would help this rash under his armpits and that she is confident that it could help others as well . She also said she is going to recommend it for certain instances instead of creams because it was all natural. I was pretty proud of myself .

 

[Hillman]

From what I have gathered extra virgin coconut oil is made up of up to 98% saturated and unsaturated acids. Which makes it more acidic in nature. This is where the anti-fungal, bacterial, viral, and anti-inflammatory qualities come from in this oil. The type of acids this oil has are extremely potent.

I can't find an exact pH of the shell but it's made up of layered beta keratin. Which is a key ingredient for our skin and hair. And the main ingredient in our finger and toe nails which is alpha keratin. I would suspect. And this is my opinion.. that the shell would be relatively close to the pH of the skin, hair and nails in humans. When keratin gets saturated for extended periods of time it's more prone to fungal & bacterial infections. So naturally EVCO can help inhibit this if it occures. Idk if this helps. If anyone with chem & bio knowledge that knows more about this please chip in lol

Another thing i found really cool is i told my grandma's dog vet about EVCO and how it could possibly help Olivers skin with the slight bacterial infection. She was hesitant she explained that dogs skin is very pH sensitive and said she would consult with the other doctors which included a dermatologist about the oil . My grandma got a call from the vet a week later and said that it would help this rash under his armpits and that she is confident that it could help others as well . She also said she is going to recommend it for certain instances instead of creams because it was all natural. I was pretty proud of myself .

You certainly did a great job! Testing on our own pets requires a lot of courage thou