Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I'm only guessing but I would say his ability to feed fruit is again somehow related to hydration and diet. It would be nice if we found that you could incorporate some fruit for those people who struggle to have a varied diet. Not everyone can grow their own food. Of course the response to this is always, "they don't really get it in the wild so they shouldn't have it", But when you mention sand in the wild you hear "we should do better than in the wild". It's hard to explain things we don't entirely understand and that's why I love when we explore things as group here. I believe we still have lots to learn.

I have been of the belief that the fruit thing has something to do with their gut flora. But again, I don't understand it compleatly.

Also going off topic, but another topic worth a debate in my opinion is lifestyle changes for old tortoises. If someone comes here with a tortoise who has been eating fruit for almost 100 years, would the gut flora of that tortoise already have changed? Is it worth it telling the keeper to stop giving any fruit? This also goes for some other life style changes with older tortoises.

 

[S2G]

I have been of the belief that the fruit thing has something to do with their gut flora. But again, I don't understand it compleatly.

Also going off topic, but another topic worth a debate in my opinion is lifestyle changes for old tortoises. If someone comes here with a tortoise who has been eating fruit for almost 100 years, would the gut flora of that tortoise already have changed? Is it worth it telling the keeper to stop giving any fruit? This also goes for some other life style changes with older tortoises.

Woke up & chose violence today i see...

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Woke up & chose violence today i see...

Maybe 😁 I have been wondering about the old tortoise thing for a while, and whether or not to create a thread in the debatable section. I would just honestly want to hear everyone's opinion.

 

[jaizei]

I agree. Once again i'm not advocating for or arguing that they need sand. I'm simply saying in many situations it works and I'm very interested in why. I think it holds answers to help us provide the best care we can for our animals. Maybe it's more space, humidity, hydration, nutrition or something we haven't thought of yet. That has been my point all along. It's easy to say they don't need it so don't use but that doesn't advance our knowledge of animal husbandry.

Generally, I'd attribute it to the quantity (% sand) and hydration. I'd like to think its more likely to be hydration since that helps move things along and a dehydrated animal will be impacted by other substrates also. But mostly/all sand is usually only used when someone is keeping their animal 'dry' so its hard to see examples of well hydrated animals living on mostly/just sand.

Specifically, I'd think something like the substrate Chris is using is unlikely to lead to impaction from sand because the animal can't eat enough of the sand to become impacted if it was eating substrate.

Like Alex noted, Andy Highfield think fiber plays a role in wild animals not becoming impacted, and I can see some of that logic due to the role fiber plays in digestion. But I'd also attribute it to general health and lack of dehydration.

My particular interest are HID lamps as a source of real good ambient light and jaizei's comment about cypress mulch (because, that's the substrate I use now).

Anecdotes about Internal injuries from mulch go quite a ways back. I significantly reduced my usage of cypress mulch about 10 years ago to the point where I may use it in the middle layer of bioactive substrate but its rarely accessible to the animal. An easily accessible, recent example of the risks posed by cypress mulch is discussed in episode 27 of the Let's Talk Turtles Podcast. Alex, if you prefer something you can read instead of listen to, you can try asking 2turtletom for more details.

HID lights: metal halides make a nice light, but they are intense and create a decent amount of heat so they are of limited use in anything smaller than room sized.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Talking about substrates, one thing that is common topic here in Finland but not so much here in the forum is environmental concerns. Most, if not all substrate options have some environmental concerns tied to them. The only concern I have about using coco coir, is both ethical and environmental.

 

[jaizei]

There was a thread, sometime the beginning of the year, where Zovick mentioned he has fed fruit to all his tortoises for 60 years with no problems. He was quickly told not to say that because "newbies" couldn't be trusted with that info. It was sad to me that this is where we've gotten with this forum. I'm sure there's a reason he can do this with no problems but we can't even discuss it because we believe people are to ignorant to understand how or why to do certain things. I always feel better about not doing things when I understand why as opposed to just being told not to like I'm a child.

I'm only guessing but I would say his ability to feed fruit is again somehow related to hydration and diet. It would be nice if we found that you could incorporate some fruit for those people who struggle to have a varied diet. Not everyone can grow their own food. Of course the response to this is always, "they don't really get it in the wild so they shouldn't have it", But when you mention sand in the wild you hear "we should do better than in the wild". It's hard to explain things we don't entirely understand and that's why I love when we explore things as group here. I believe we still have lots to learn.

Sorry about getting way off topic. I just find it all interesting.

I can't speak for Bill, but I think you're right thinking hydration and diet play a role. Same as most other issues over the years, basic good husbandry gives you more flexibility.
---

For those concerned about a varied diet:

Varied diet is an easy way to try to cover all nutritional bases. It's the shot gun approach. You can raise a healthy tortoise on a more limited diet, you just have to put more work into it.

If you were feeding something like Mazuri or other tortoise "chow," a varied diet is less important because the chow is covering the "vitamins" portion, and anything else is just for energy. Even the "chows" are mostly just a few items for the macros, with supplementation to add the vitamins and other elements.

As for fruits:
I think the problems caused by fruits were from the amount of fruit at once, and possibly animals that had a high parasite load to start with. You often see claims that fruit causes a 'parasite bloom,' which can mean an imbalance of "bad" microorganisms in the gut or can mean actual parasites like worms. Changes in diet can cause diarrhea or loose stools, so that was interpreted as an increase in "bad" gut flora. Loose stools may also make it easier to see worms in the droppings, leading some to think the fruit caused an increase in those parasites. Fruit also increases water intake which would change stool appearance, esp if the animals were kept less hydrated as used to be common.

When Mazuri is mentioned, how often are there any concerns about the unknown amount of sugar in it? With the exception of Will, I have seen very few that have really put though into it.

 

[Tom]

Tom, you do realize that chris said he amended the substrate with sand, not use sand as a substrate? not sure why he does that? but i did amended the soil where my box turtles hibernate when i first built the pen, to help drainage.....over the years of all the leaves breaking down, the soil is now imo perfect for them to hibernate in....... i also amended the soil in a large section of the wood turtles pen with a lot of sand, so they have a spot to lay their eggs..... i never used play sand, i used the sand for putting under pavers, it's very different than play sand........

any x-rays of intestinal obstructions i've actually seen were rocks

Yes sir. I realize most people using sand are only using it as part of a mix. I've seen it cause these problems we are discussing here even when it was a relatively low amount.

I've seen plenty of rock x-rays too. Some of the tortoises died, but many seems to be able to pass them. The rock thing is more hit or miss, and it seems like they would have to eat the rocks intentionally, compared to accidentally ingesting sand stuck to every meal.

 

[Tom]

Exactly! That's my point. It appears we're not providing something that they have naturally that allows them to not have problems with sandy soil.

There may be sand in some areas in the wild, but they aren't living on it and in it constantly, and it is not mixing with their food daily.

Another obvious variable is how much walking is done daily in a wild tortoise compared to a captive one.

Hydration could go either way. Captive tortoises that are kept intentionally well hydrated, vs. captive tortoises that aren't. Wild tortoise in the rainy season vs. wild tortoises in a drought.

Here are the simple facts that we all agree on:
1. Sand can and does sometimes cause impaction.
2. Some people use sand as part of a mix and as far as they know, it has not caused them a problem yet.
3. Sand can cause eye irritation and lead to eye infection.
4. Sand can be a skin irritant.
5. Absolutely NOTHING bad that is sand related happens if no sand is used.

Why isn't this obvious to you and everyone else? I don't get it. Can't have sand problems if there is no sand. Might or might not have sand problems if sand is present. Does the reason why really matter? With all the variables involved, can we ever be 100% certain of what is going on with sand related problems?

Just don't use it. So simple.

 

[Tom]

The sand I'm talking bout is more like powdery dirt. In areas where i have poor draining ground i amend it with play sand or paver sand. Ive used pool filter sand in aquariums & to amend. Its a lot more like the gulf coast beaches. It stirs up easy in water which will kill your filter or its sticks to everything. The paver or play sand soil mix is what i really like to use. It drains very well, plants love it, & its great for all kinds of burrowing.

Outside no one has a problem with it, but if I move their pen setup into an enclosure inside now all the sudden im endangering my animals. If i recommend my setup to someone then im giving poor advice that goes against the caresheet. Which makes me scratch my head.

Its like how some few firearms. All are bad due to people missusing them. I like my soil mix, because it drains really well, keeps claws manicured better, more natural burrowing/digging, good for egg laying. Its not only providing enrichment for them, but its makes it more enjoyable for me as well. I honestly think if you use the right kind the risk is pretty negligible honestly. Little colored rocks worry me way more.

I would never advocate adding sand to an outdoor enclosure anymore than an indoor one.

 

[Tom]

There was a thread, sometime the beginning of the year, where Zovick mentioned he has fed fruit to all his tortoises for 60 years with no problems. He was quickly told not to say that because "newbies" couldn't be trusted with that info. It was sad to me that this is where we've gotten with this forum. I'm sure there's a reason he can do this with no problems but we can't even discuss it because we believe people are to ignorant to understand how or why to do certain things. I always feel better about not doing things when I understand why as opposed to just being told not to like I'm a child.

I'm only guessing but I would say his ability to feed fruit is again somehow related to hydration and diet. It would be nice if we found that you could incorporate some fruit for those people who struggle to have a varied diet. Not everyone can grow their own food. Of course the response to this is always, "they don't really get it in the wild so they shouldn't have it", But when you mention sand in the wild you hear "we should do better than in the wild". It's hard to explain things we don't entirely understand and that's why I love when we explore things as group here. I believe we still have lots to learn.

Sorry about getting way off topic. I just find it all interesting.

Just because someone is doing something and immediate death doesn't occur, does not make it a good practice or a practice to be recommended.

There are few people in the world that I respect more than "The Godfather" himself. The man is a living legend, and deserving of 100% of that respect and more. Having said that, no human knows everything in the world. Everyone used to feed lots of fruit back in the day. I did it too. Mr. Z continued doing it, and saw no ill effect. Does that mean its good? Or does that mean it was bad and he got away with it for whatever reason? What should be recommended to someone asking what to feed their tortoises? Is it possible that Mr. Zovickian's tortoises survived eating the fruit because everything else he did, or one or two other things he did, were so excellent as to overcome the negative effects of the fruit eating?

This is that same argument as the sand thing. I don't care why Chris's tortoises are not dying from living on sand. Other tortoises do die. I don't care why Mr. Zovickian got away with feeding fruit all those years. Its not a good practice, tortoises don't need or benefit from it, so I son't do it and don't recommend other people do it.

I don't share your fascination with the details. I care about what works for most people in a captive tortoise setting, and preventing problems wherever possible.

Sand can and does cause problems.
Sand is not necessary or beneficial.
Skip it. A person can 100% avoid any sand problems by not using sand, and not using sand does zero harm to their tortoise.

 

[Fluffy]

Just because someone is doing something and immediate death doesn't occur, does not make it a good practice or a practice to be recommended.

There are few people in the world that I respect more than "The Godfather" himself. The man is a living legend, and deserving of 100% of that respect and more. Having said that, no human knows everything in the world. Everyone used to feed lots of fruit back in the day. I did it too. Mr. Z continued doing it, and saw no ill effect. Does that mean its good? Or does that mean it was bad and he got away with it for whatever reason? What should be recommended to someone asking what to feed their tortoises? Is it possible that Mr. Zovickian's tortoises survived eating the fruit because everything else he did, or one or two other things he did, were so excellent as to overcome the negative effects of the fruit eating?

This is that same argument as the sand thing. I don't care why Chris's tortoises are not dying from living on sand. Other tortoises do die. I don't care why Mr. Zovickian got away with feeding fruit all those years. Its not a good practice, tortoises don't need or benefit from it, so I son't do it and don't recommend other people do it.

I don't share your fascination with the details. I care about what works for most people in a captive tortoise setting, and preventing problems wherever possible.

Sand can and does cause problems.
Sand is not necessary or beneficial.
Skip it. A person can 100% avoid any sand problems by not using sand, and not using sand does zero harm to their tortoise.

Tom I'm going to try and be nice here. I have explained myself several times and you refuse to comprehend or you are just trying to be difficult. You can keep repeating the same thing over and over. You can be rude and borderline condescending if you want. I have stated from the beginning it has nothing to do with wanting to use sand. You know that because I've repeated it many times. You act like you didn't want to know everything you could when trying to figure out pyramiding. If we know everything we need to know then why not just pin your care sheet to the top and shut the forum down? By the responses here I'm not the only one that questions things and would like answers but it's obvious you think it's dumb to ask why. Great, so let's move on.

 

[wellington]

Talk about beating a dead horse!

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

Talk about beating a dead horse!

Wait… did the horse die from eating sand? 🤔

 

[Ink]

There may be sand in some areas in the wild, but they aren't living on it and in it constantly, and it is not mixing with their food daily.

Another obvious variable is how much walking is done daily in a wild tortoise compared to a captive one.

Hydration could go either way. Captive tortoises that are kept intentionally well hydrated, vs. captive tortoises that aren't. Wild tortoise in the rainy season vs. wild tortoises in a drought.

Here are the simple facts that we all agree on:
1. Sand can and does sometimes cause impaction.
2. Some people use sand as part of a mix and as far as they know, it has not caused them a problem yet.
3. Sand can cause eye irritation and lead to eye infection.
4. Sand can be a skin irritant.
5. Absolutely NOTHING bad that is sand related happens if no sand is used.

Why isn't this obvious to you and everyone else? I don't get it. Can't have sand problems if there is no sand. Might or might not have sand problems if sand is present. Does the reason why really matter? With all the variables involved, can we ever be 100% certain of what is going on with sand related problems?

Just don't use it. So simple.

I agree why risk it. I don't and won't. I don't like sand stuck on me, why would my tortoise, especially if they can't wash it off themselves.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Wait… did the horse die from eating sand? 🤔

Chubbs🤣🤣

For what it’s worth I’m sorry if you’ve felt like people have tried to shut down your discussion @Fluffy, I think tbh when there’s things that have known risks, the whys don’t really matter with stuff like this.

However I understand wanting more information to back up why certain lighting isn’t appropriate for example, I think the difference there is, it could be debatable which gives more benefits.

Whereas for something like sand in substrate, there’s absolutely zero added benefits, so ultimately the whys don’t matter to me, there’s risk for no potential positives, that’s all I need to know personally🙂

 

[mark1]

the healthiest turtles i have ever kept in my life are given the "wild"......i went that direction just prior to 2000...they are just protected from what kills them in the "wild", and sand isn't one of them...they are provide best case scenario "wild"..... their hibernacula is as good as they could possibly find in the "wild", they are protected from predators, they are protected from drought, they are protected from starvation, they are semi-protected from disease.... they are not protected from extreme temp fluctuations, they are provided with what they use to deal with them in the wild.... they are not protected from below zero temps, 100+F temps, poisonous plants, rocks, sand.........my opinion is if you can provide best case scenario "wild" you'll raise the healthiest tortoises of your life.....

proof i'm not just trolling this sand thing......wood turtles were digging in new spot they apparently prefer......Tom, your discussion should be appreciated, it causes folks to think.... i do agree, keeping them on sand is not a good idea, and i can't think of any benefit......

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

We have steered away from "how people do things, why they work for them and what benefits they get" to "just don't".

The setups outlined in care sheets are basic and safe. They lack rich lightning (LEDs, especially household, don't have full visible spectrum output, UVA is limited - fluorescents don't provide a smooth spectrum) and ecosystem is bare. Perhaps, it's perfect for raising a tortoise and moving it outdoors as soon as it's ready (or for the short periods of overwintering). Yet I think that housing an animal indoors for decades needs something more sophisticated.

I really enjoyed the posts in this thread where some discussion and exchanging knowledge happened. And now I have something new to learn about.

"Why to risk" is a good question. I have a redfoot in a bad climate. I can keep it in a "safe enclosure" or take risks and keep it outside whenever possible (pyramiding due to low humidity, overheating under fierce sun, RI due to colder temperatures at night and winter, ants, cats and other stuff). I think that being outside is more beneficial for her, so I try to mitigate the risks I'm aware of.

There was a good point raised - sand doesn't cause issues in the wild. What can we do in captivity to achieve the same effect? Once we know, we can ditch the sand and get a habitat probably superior to the wild. Benefits of using sand are not obvious to me too - mimicking wild conditions isn't a goal per se.

 

[Tom]

Tom I'm going to try and be nice here. I have explained myself several times and you refuse to comprehend or you are just trying to be difficult. You can keep repeating the same thing over and over. You can be rude and borderline condescending if you want. I have stated from the beginning it has nothing to do with wanting to use sand. You know that because I've repeated it many times. You act like you didn't want to know everything you could when trying to figure out pyramiding. If we know everything we need to know then why not just pin your care sheet to the top and shut the forum down? By the responses here I'm not the only one that questions things and would like answers but it's obvious you think it's dumb to ask why. Great, so let's move on.

With pyramiding, we needed to learn how, what, and why to stop the pyramiding. The "why" mattered. In the case of sandy substrate, the "why" does not matter to me. We know what the problem is and we know how to avoid it. I'm trying to understand why it matters to you, and also wondering what we do about it if and when we discover why. I still won't be recommending it, even with caveats. People that are still using it probably will.

I don't know why you are taking any of this as rude or condescending. I am just conversing with you. Each of us making our points. You want to know the "why"? To me the "why" doesn't matter because we know what causes the problem and how to avoid it. Thinking more about this and your example: At one point when I had learned how to prevent and stop pyramiding, I still did not know or understand the why. That understanding came later. I didn't really care about the why because I knew what worked and what didn't work. The why only mattered when it came to explaining the whole pyramiding thing to people who had already learned the old conventional dry way of housing tortoises. I had a tough time convincing anyone about the humidity and hydration stuff without being able to explain all the details. But I stuck with it because I knew what I knew, and the whole world is slowly coming around, this YT video from Chris being one example. Same thing with the sand and soil.

I understand that YOU personally are not advocating the use of sand in substrates, but many people still are. That is the reason for continuing this discussion. When people who know better sit back and say nothing, bad info is perpetuated. If I had stopped harping about the humidity, hydration, and closed camber thing when people first argued with me, insulted me, and threatened me, where would we all be?

 

[Fluffy]

We have steered away from "how people do things, why they work for them and what benefits they get" to "just don't".

The setups outlined in care sheets are basic and safe. They lack rich lightning (LEDs, especially household, don't have full visible spectrum output, UVA is limited - fluorescents don't provide a smooth spectrum) and ecosystem is bare. Perhaps, it's perfect for raising a tortoise and moving it outdoors as soon as it's ready (or for the short periods of overwintering). Yet I think that housing an animal indoors for decades needs something more sophisticated.

I really enjoyed the posts in this thread where some discussion and exchanging knowledge happened. And now I have something new to learn about.

"Why to risk" is a good question. I have a redfoot in a bad climate. I can keep it in a "safe enclosure" or take risks and keep it outside whenever possible (pyramiding due to low humidity, overheating under fierce sun, RI due to colder temperatures at night and winter, ants, cats and other stuff). I think that being outside is more beneficial for her, so I try to mitigate the risks I'm aware of.

There was a good point raised - sand doesn't cause issues in the wild. What can we do in captivity to achieve the same effect? Once we know, we can ditch the sand and get a habitat probably superior to the wild. Benefits of using sand are not obvious to me too - mimicking wild conditions isn't a goal per se.

Thank you for at least understanding my point and why I brought it up.

 

[Tom]

I agree why risk it. I don't and won't. I don't like sand stuck on me, why would my tortoise, especially if they can't wash it off themselves.

Anyone who has ever been to any beach anywhere in the world should easily understand this concept.