Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[S2G]

I bit the bait again 😅

I understand and Im on board now. My naturally sandy coastal soil is just fine to keep them on. Moving my naturally sandy soil to an inside enclosure is no beuno. Also amending my rocky soil to be like my naturally sandy soil also gets me sent to the corner.

Im taking my terminology approach just i like i did on "wild" keeping. Theyre no longer kept wild on sandy soil. Theyre kept natural on fine grade dirt

 

[S2G]

Wait… did the horse die from eating sand? 🤔

It doesnt look like sand. Its dark & has corn it...

 

[Tom]

the healthiest turtles i have ever kept in my life are given the "wild"......i went that direction just prior to 2000...they are just protected from what kills them in the "wild", and sand isn't one of them...they are provide best case scenario "wild"..... their hibernacula is as good as they could possibly find in the "wild", they are protected from predators, they are protected from drought, they are protected from starvation, they are semi-protected from disease.... they are not protected from extreme temp fluctuations, they are provided with what they use to deal with them in the wild.... they are not protected from below zero temps, 100+F temps, poisonous plants, rocks, sand.........my opinion is if you can provide best case scenario "wild" you'll raise the healthiest tortoises of your life.....

proof i'm not just trolling this sand thing......wood turtles were digging in new spot they apparently prefer......Tom, your discussion should be appreciated, it causes folks to think.... i do agree, keeping them on sand is not a good idea, and i can't think of any benefit......

I'll start with the negative: The first parts of this post where you explain what you protect them from, all makes great sense. Your temperate species in your temperate climate may be able to deal with temperature extremes, but a turtle dropping into a pond is not the same as an above ground red foot tortoise in Phoenix AZ in summer. There is no way to provide that RF with "what they would use to deal with it in the wild" in that scorching hot climate.

Likewise, allowing access to toxic foreign plants results in tortoise deaths, and I've seen this many times, even if your chelonians survive the opportunity to poison themselves.

Now the good part: You have reminded me of one use of sand that is apparently beneficial and "natural". I'm really not a turtle guy, though I do like turtles and try to learn about them. However, a lot of the annual TTPG attending members ARE turtle keepers and I watch their presentations with great interest. It seems some species of turtles nest on sandy river banks during certain seasons in their wild environments. Some turtle breeders have had success adding a sandy section for egg deposition. I can certainly see the usefulness and utility of that.

 

[mark1]

i kept red footed tortoises and elongated tortoises for 10-15yrs, they act exactly like my eastern box turtles, they lived in my parents backyard june through october in northeast ohio , they thrived outside, as do the r.p.manni i have now, and survived inside for the other 7 months...... they like my manni were/are provided infrared heat lamps outside, they can see them and i can see them, they know what they are, and use them, which was/is important on the colder ends of their time outside....... sand and infrared bulbs, it does get worse.......

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

It doesnt look like sand. Its dark & has corn it...

Who would have thought… Shepards pie

 

[dd33]

I'll start beating my tortoise disease drum again. . . I don't have really have "dirt" on my property, its basically all sand with a small organic layer on top. I find turds daily that have massive amounts of sand in them. The tortoises prefer to eat very short grass young grass shoots and they often pull them out by the roots eating the sand along with them. As mentioned plenty of times in this thread, a healthy tortoise seems to be able to pass sand or rocks like this with ease. It becomes a problem when they are sick and gut motility is down. Pica is also associated with some tortoise diseases so they may actually intentionally eat sand/rocks when sick. We have seen issues with apparent sand impaction in animals that were ultimately diagnosed with TINC.

Not keeping young tortoises on sand seems like sound advice, why risk it. It seems like any substrate though can have horror stories. Our young tortoises would often eat giant pieces of cypress mulch. This photo is mulch from a single stool:

 

[Fluffy]

Why isn't this obvious to you and everyone else? I don't get it.

Just one example Tom. This after I've explained myself multiple times that I'm on your side. Tom you are way to intelligent and articulate to not of known how what you type can be perceived. There were several people here that understood exactly what I meant and I know you did as well. As I said I'm over it. You say you don't care and that's great. I stand by my thoughts that learning the why could help with overall husbandry but it's obvious there is nothing more to discuss here.

 

[EppsDynasty]

I waited yesterday and did not respond, I really wanted to think of "How to Word" a response. I wanted to do it in a way that there can be understanding all around.....

I am in no way claiming any fault by any company or person that I am about to tell you about.....

1st: Sand that is commercially produced is done so by using "Sizing Screens." A rock crushing machine is used (either a diesel powered or electrically powered) to crush the rock into different sizes. These crushed rocks then will be fed over a vibrating screen at an angle to allow gravity to "pull" the rocks down the screen. These screens will have different sized holes in them progressively getting smaller, producing different sized rocks that conveyor belts put in piles. Example: The first screen will be 1 1/2" sized holes in the screen, then the one under that will be 1" holes, then 3/4" holes.
2nd: As you can imagine this process uses the natural surrounding "Earth" of the quarries location to produce these rocks of different sizes and "Sand." The location of said quarry on this planet dictates the materials produced, based on the materials surrounding the quarry. As you can imagine ANY and ALL dirt will fall through the sizing screens and be collected with the SAND. Most of us have heard of OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration), but quarries are mining operations and therefore controlled by MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration). I have been the "Man" whose signature was needed to certify "All" daily activity logs as well as the "Daily Material" logs so I know a little about this.
3rd: The materials produced are then sold (usually by the ton) to buyers who use it for ALL kinds of things Base Rock for roads, Gravel for roads, Gravel for cement, Sand for cement, Rocks for levees (called Rip Rap), etc. I HAVE NEVER HAD AN AGENCY TEST ANY MATERIAL PRODUCED FOR TOXINS !
How does this relate to this conversation .....
In my area our surrounding Rocks are full of Asbestos, Uranium, Arsenic, Iron, Boron, and all kinds of other naturally occurring Minerals, Heavy Metals, and Toxins. There is a rock quarry 1/2 mile from my home that crushes rocks producing sized materials and SAND. This SAND is now full of anything the "Rock" material and "Dirt" was comprised of. SO there is no Sand that is identical to Sand from a different location. And there is no such thing as Sand that does NOT have "Fines" (that is what small particles are called in a mining operation) in it. You can start to see where this is going.
The natural terrain that some are calling Sandy is made up of hundreds of different materials and chemicals like copper, quartz, etc.....
I hope this didn't become too long for some to read but I really wanted to highlight the complexities of SAND and why it is not a standard universal thing. You have no idea what is in your sand no matter where you buy or get it, it is all produced as I explained. So it is impossible to say "well so and so used SAND and so I should be able to use it and expect the same results." There is not only the impaction issues but the toxin issues that are different in EVERY situation.
Point of this post .... There are far too many variables in the Sand equation to use blanket statements for expected results.

 

[Fluffy]

I waited yesterday and did not respond, I really wanted to think of "How to Word" a response. I wanted to do it in a way that there can be understanding all around.....

I am in no way claiming any fault by any company or person that I am about to tell you about.....

1st: Sand that is commercially produced is done so by using "Sizing Screens." A rock crushing machine is used (either a diesel powered or electrically powered) to crush the rock into different sizes. These crushed rocks then will be fed over a vibrating screen at an angle to allow gravity to "pull" the rocks down the screen. These screens will have different sized holes in them progressively getting smaller, producing different sized rocks that conveyor belts put in piles. Example: The first screen will be 1 1/2" sized holes in the screen, then the one under that will be 1" holes, then 3/4" holes.
2nd: As you can imagine this process uses the natural surrounding "Earth" of the quarries location to produce these rocks of different sizes and "Sand." The location of said quarry on this planet dictates the materials produced, based on the materials surrounding the quarry. As you can imagine ANY and ALL dirt will fall through the sizing screens and be collected with the SAND. Most of us have heard of OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration), but quarries are mining operations and therefore controlled by MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration). I have been the "Man" whose signature was needed to certify "All" daily activity logs as well as the "Daily Material" logs so I know a little about this.
3rd: The materials produced are then sold (usually by the ton) to buyers who use it for ALL kinds of things Base Rock for roads, Gravel for roads, Gravel for cement, Sand for cement, Rocks for levees (called Rip Rap), etc. I HAVE NEVER HAD AN AGENCY TEST ANY MATERIAL PRODUCED FOR TOXINS !
How does this relate to this conversation .....
In my area our surrounding Rocks are full of Asbestos, Uranium, Arsenic, Iron, Boron, and all kinds of other naturally occurring Minerals, Heavy Metals, and Toxins. There is a rock quarry 1/2 mile from my home that crushes rocks producing sized materials and SAND. This SAND is now full of anything the "Rock" material and "Dirt" was comprised of. SO there is no Sand that is identical to Sand from a different location. And there is no such thing as Sand that does NOT have "Fines" (that is what small particles are called in a mining operation) in it. You can start to see where this is going.
The natural terrain that some are calling Sandy is made up of hundreds of different materials and chemicals like copper, quartz, etc.....
I hope this didn't become too long for some to read but I really wanted to highlight the complexities of SAND and why it is not a standard universal thing. You have no idea what is in your sand no matter where you buy or get it, it is all produced as I explained. So it is impossible to say "well so and so used SAND and so I should be able to use it and expect the same results." There is not only the impaction issues but the toxin issues that are different in EVERY situation.
Point of this post .... There are far too many variables in the Sand equation to use blanket statements for expected results.

Thank you. That was a very good explanation about how sand is made. I do have one question, not really tortoise related, does this include play sand? I ask because small children are probably eating, licking and generally bathing in the stuff lol.

 

[Tom]

I waited yesterday and did not respond, I really wanted to think of "How to Word" a response. I wanted to do it in a way that there can be understanding all around.....

I am in no way claiming any fault by any company or person that I am about to tell you about.....

1st: Sand that is commercially produced is done so by using "Sizing Screens." A rock crushing machine is used (either a diesel powered or electrically powered) to crush the rock into different sizes. These crushed rocks then will be fed over a vibrating screen at an angle to allow gravity to "pull" the rocks down the screen. These screens will have different sized holes in them progressively getting smaller, producing different sized rocks that conveyor belts put in piles. Example: The first screen will be 1 1/2" sized holes in the screen, then the one under that will be 1" holes, then 3/4" holes.
2nd: As you can imagine this process uses the natural surrounding "Earth" of the quarries location to produce these rocks of different sizes and "Sand." The location of said quarry on this planet dictates the materials produced, based on the materials surrounding the quarry. As you can imagine ANY and ALL dirt will fall through the sizing screens and be collected with the SAND. Most of us have heard of OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration), but quarries are mining operations and therefore controlled by MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration). I have been the "Man" whose signature was needed to certify "All" daily activity logs as well as the "Daily Material" logs so I know a little about this.
3rd: The materials produced are then sold (usually by the ton) to buyers who use it for ALL kinds of things Base Rock for roads, Gravel for roads, Gravel for cement, Sand for cement, Rocks for levees (called Rip Rap), etc. I HAVE NEVER HAD AN AGENCY TEST ANY MATERIAL PRODUCED FOR TOXINS !
How does this relate to this conversation .....
In my area our surrounding Rocks are full of Asbestos, Uranium, Arsenic, Iron, Boron, and all kinds of other naturally occurring Minerals, Heavy Metals, and Toxins. There is a rock quarry 1/2 mile from my home that crushes rocks producing sized materials and SAND. This SAND is now full of anything the "Rock" material and "Dirt" was comprised of. SO there is no Sand that is identical to Sand from a different location. And there is no such thing as Sand that does NOT have "Fines" (that is what small particles are called in a mining operation) in it. You can start to see where this is going.
The natural terrain that some are calling Sandy is made up of hundreds of different materials and chemicals like copper, quartz, etc.....
I hope this didn't become too long for some to read but I really wanted to highlight the complexities of SAND and why it is not a standard universal thing. You have no idea what is in your sand no matter where you buy or get it, it is all produced as I explained. So it is impossible to say "well so and so used SAND and so I should be able to use it and expect the same results." There is not only the impaction issues but the toxin issues that are different in EVERY situation.
Point of this post .... There are far too many variables in the Sand equation to use blanket statements for expected results.

Thanks for the info. It has been my understanding that "sand" or "silt" indicates nothing more than particle size, but the particles can be made of anything, as you explained here. Is that correct?

 

[turtlesteve]

@EppsDynasty

Very interesting response and you bring up a lot of good points. I will add some comments to this:

Most sand sold in stores is mined and is construction sand that is repackaged as play sand or whatever, so that it comes through the same supply chain. The requirements for construction sand lead to specific types of sand being used - the particles must be angular (have sharp corners) to perform well. It is basically more “fresh” and has not been worn smooth by erosion. This is why there are worldwide shortages of construction sand, lots of illegal mining, etc.

Most sand in the world, especially on beaches and deserts, is made of smooth round grains; this type of sand is basically worthless for construction.

So, it is entirely possible that only specific types of sand are causing impaction. It certainly makes logical sense that sharp particles would be more concerning than smooth ones. But unless someone studies this, I’m not sure how to make useful recommendations from it. I suppose one could say, if you go take substrate from the natural habitat of a species, it should be safer. This isn’t useful to your average tortoise keeper.

Steve

 

[turtlesteve]

Thanks for the info. It has been my understanding that "sand" or "silt" indicates nothing more than particle size, but the particles can be made of anything, as you explained here. Is that correct?

Tom, correct, sand vs. silt refers only to particle size. But, particle shape may differ greatly and could be very important. Rough or sharp grains do not flow as well and are more prone to packing or clumping than smooth rounded grains.

 

[Megatron's Mom]

I have always been told in the chicken groups I'm part of that Play sand was full of silica. If true It could explain a lot.

Also, sand as a substrate is not a risk I want to take either. It could be as low as 1% but if that 1% is your tortoise than it is 100%. Not worth the risk.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I have always been told in the chicken groups I'm part of that Play sand was full of silica. If true It could explain a lot.

Also, sand as a substrate is not a risk I want to take either. It could be as low as 1% but if that 1% is your tortoise than it is 100%. Not worth the risk.

The sand used in glass production is silicon dioxide (I guess it's quartz sand). But as EppsDynasty explained - there are a lot of varietes of sand with totally different composition (it's not the same as beach sand but is more stone, like marble or granite or whatever, crumbles). Across the Mediterranean, I presume, mostly volcanic sand is present.

Wikipedia gives a good illustration of sand types (strangely, I didn't look there from the beginning).

 

[EppsDynasty]

Thank you. That was a very good explanation about how sand is made. I do have one question, not really tortoise related, does this include play sand? I ask because small children are probably eating, licking and generally bathing in the stuff lol.

This does include play Sand. Some of the bigger commercial mining facilities use washing as one of the final steps. This separates out the heavier "Sand" and the lighter "Silt" which just as @Tom said is made up of anything. The lighter materials that stay suspended in the washing process then can be sorted into even more things such as part of Polymeric Sand (for pavers) or even the muds used in drilling operations. I would imagine that at facilities way more advanced than the Flintstone type ones I worked for ..... There is testing. One of the things that would blow people away is "That the white powder on sticks of chewing gum" .... is most of the time Granite Dust, yes from crushing granite. @turtlesteve is exactly right as well, locale dictates a lot about the real makeup (including shape) of what you truly have. Again he is completely correct about the infinite variation and its exact impact on a torts system and life. Hopefully I didn't get to far out in the weeds but my point about the 2 forms .... Hydrophobic material acts so different than Hydrophilic material inside a Tortoise. And to say "Any Sand that clumps" really isn't saying much.

 

[EppsDynasty]

1 more thing I forgot ... no 2 things @Alex and the Redfoot is 100% correct as well about silica, it IS what is used for Glass in majority and what a majority of Sand is.

One time in my career the Company I worked for was hired to strip of the top layer of "Dirt" called over burden off of a property of a gigantic mining operation. Then they were going to dig deeper and crush, sort, size and then sell the materials they collected. While we were digging up this dirt and moving it to a giant pile on the edge of the property a forest fire broke out in the Coastal Mountain Ranges of California. The Forestry Dept. dropped a team of Hot Shots into the fire a few days after it started and then almost immediately had to pull them out. In the fire rocks were exploding and said rocks were full of Asbestos causing an incredible risk to the Hot Shots on the front lines. Meanwhile at the bottom of the Mountain was this rock crushing facility that provided materials for all over Central California and parts of the Central Coast. Towns up to 100 miles away would buy the materials they needed for roads and Construction projects here (including fill dirt). Just thought some might find this story interesting.

 

[TammyJ]

The way I look at the whole tortoise/sand thing is this: Think of reasons why it is maybe not a good idea to use (any kind of) sand as a substrate for your tortoise to live in. Then try to think of why it maybe IS a good idea.
Anyone think of any reason for it to be good for your tortoise? So why not just use something else that has been found to be less risky?