Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Fluffy]

I feel we're finally get some answers. I've always believed there is something to benefit by learning what is actually causing the problems and I definitely know more now then I did. I wish this forum was more friendly to these types of conversations but it's not. Lot's of knowledge here if we were more open.

 

[Fluffy]

I'd liken substrate to growing media instead of to soil or dirt - even with adding sand, I keep my substrates closer to a media than to trying to replicate soil. I wouldn't use yard dirt or even bagged top soil (actual top soil not bagged mixes that call themselves top soil) because of the weight and it can turn muddy.

I think a mostly soilless mix is a good starting point. For bioactive substrates ABG mixes or similar are common.

Do you personally use ABG mixes?

 

[EppsDynasty]

I feel we're finally get some answers. I've always believed there is something to benefit by learning what is actually causing the problems and I definitely know more now then I did. I wish this forum was more friendly to these types of conversations but it's not. Lot's of knowledge here if we were more open.

Right On 100%
This was a VERY good thread for all to share and air there info, ya really can't beat that.
The TFO is still one hell of a place to be!

 

[mark1]

can anyone provide an x-ray of a sand impacted tortoise?

 

[jaizei]

Do you personally use ABG mixes?

I was making growing mixes before I'd heard of it so I don't follow it exactly. I play around with the quantities and include other items that aren't part of the original recipe.

 

[Fluffy]

I went looking on the internet for any x-ray of tortoises with sand impaction. Not really anything there. Surprisingly lots of articles about dogs with sand impaction. Basically all of them from being at the beach. Of course we have already determined that beach sand is different from what we're discussing here but I found it really interesting.

Also tons of articles about bearded dragons. I know nothing about lizard care but lots of parallels to the discussion we're having here. They seem to be focused on the types of substrate and husbandry. I'm linking an article I found that particularly stood out because a lot of what he say echos what some are saying here. Again I have no opinion on this but the parallels were shocking.

Eating Sand & Substrate Impaction - The Reptile Networks "Replicate, Emulate, Stimulate"

The following is something that is often said within my Bearded Dragon Facebook group (as well as others). And frankly, …

reptilenetworks.co.uk

 

[Fluffy]

I was making growing mixes before I'd heard of it so I don't follow it exactly. I play around with the quantities and include other items that aren't part of the original recipe.

I was thinking Box Turtles or any of the forest dwellers might benefit from this type of substrate. You have any thoughts after making your own mix?

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I've nothing constructive to add to any of this, but this thread is 100% the reason I love TFO. I've read every reply in this thread. My takeaway from all of it is to remain doing things as I've always done it. I don't feed fruit and I don't use any sand as a substrate (or mixture thereof). I'm of the mindset now and will continue with that mindset that if it's not necessary and they won't miss if if they never had it, the why introduce it? This discussion has solidified my belief.

 

[Tom]

So what makes what you've seen & experienced so much more important than what other people have seen. I respect you, but theres a superiorty aspect to all your statements.

I have seen a problem that other people have not seen. What I've seen is not more important... This sentiment makes no sense. This is like you saying that you've seen no great white shark attacks in Alabama, so its a non-issue. It doesn't happen. Of course it happens. You just haven't seen it. This is like you saying that gang violence is a "non-issue" because you haven't seen much of it in your town, completely ignoring the observations of other people. The observations of people living in Chicago or Oakland CA are not "much more important" than yours. They have just seen something that you haven't.

What youve seen seems to be isolated to where you live & mostly dt's for some odd reason. I guarantee theyre way more compaction deaths from coco coir here than sand. Im talking wayyy more.

No, this problem occurs all over the country and all over the world. I've yet to see a death from coco coir impaction. I have seen many deaths from sand. If you want to share info on all the coco coir deaths that you have seen first hand, I am all ears. We can discuss it and try to figure out why you've seen something completely different that what I've seen in 30+ years of tortoise keeping, and what factors may be at work here.

They only way what youre saying makes sense is if theyre kept on mostly sand, kept dehydrated, & cant move. Then fed produce on the substrate.

We don't know why some get blocked up and die and others don't. Dehydration, percentage of sand, and enclosure size were nothing more than speculative guesses by a previous poster. We don't know that any of those things have anything to do with it. I've seen sand impactions in tortoises that had the entire run of a large yard and a big shallow water bowl sitting right there. So no, that is not the only way what I am saying makes sense. That is you trying to make sense of something you have little to no experience with by making up false parameters and proceeding as if they are true.

 

[mark1]

I went looking on the internet for any x-ray of tortoises with sand impaction. Not really anything there. Surprisingly lots of articles about dogs

i can tell you how it happens to dogs, someone dumps water meat was boiled in, or grease from cooking on the ground.... the dog will eat the dirt, or sand where it was dumped, first hand experience..... it takes eating a large quantity at once to cause a problem..... dirt on food passes through right along with the food...... box turtles eat a lot of dirt...... i always see dirt all over their mouths after they eat, especially worms or fruit off the ground.......

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I went looking on the internet for any x-ray of tortoises with sand impaction. Not really anything there. Surprisingly lots of articles about dogs with sand impaction. Basically all of them from being at the beach. Of course we have already determined that beach sand is different from what we're discussing here but I found it really interesting.

Also tons of articles about bearded dragons. I know nothing about lizard care but lots of parallels to the discussion we're having here. They seem to be focused on the types of substrate and husbandry. I'm linking an article I found that particularly stood out because a lot of what he say echos what some are saying here. Again I have no opinion on this but the parallels were shocking.

Eating Sand & Substrate Impaction - The Reptile Networks "Replicate, Emulate, Stimulate"

The following is something that is often said within my Bearded Dragon Facebook group (as well as others). And frankly, …

reptilenetworks.co.uk

As of bearded dragons, I like this article more:

What Substrate Should I Use?! | Enclosures

As many bearded dragon owners have discovered, there are a LOT of different opinions out there on which substrates are the best. There are a lot of posts here (and basically on every reptile forum...) that argue particle vs. non-particle substrates. So, here is my attempt at creating an...

www.beardeddragon.org

Should be noted, that besides using sail/soil(+optional clay) mix they recommend to feed the dragon off the substrate - separate container for live prey and food dish for other (and dragons can use high-sided dishes). And not to use loose substrates for baby dragons.

The other thing is that coco coir is not among recommended substrates. Because it passes through worse than play sand. Totally opposite to what we see in forum's care sheets.