Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Tom]

I don't understand why outdoor enclosures in areas that have naturally sandy soils are acceptable, but if someone scoops that up and puts it in their inside enclosure it's suddenly a death sentence?

No one in this entire thread has said either one of those things.

Sometimes tortoises in captive conditions with naturally sandy soil DO get impacted and die, but its definitely not an automatic death sentence. Indoors it poses more of a problem because of the smaller size of the tortoises, and because nearly every meal will end up with sandy substrate stuck to it.

 

[Tom]

This thread is interesting and entertaining. But what it isn't, is filled with proof of what the main posters are arguing.
First, no one has a clue what others know or have seen.
Second, the stuff found on the internet has to be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, certain sites can be reliable, but important info can either be left out, not tested or construed by the reader.
Real hands/eyes on proof is really the only proof you really have.
So, the two of you, @S2G and @Tom and anyone else with hands/eyes on proof should should try to get that proof and post it.
Anyone can say anything. Backing it up with hardcore proof is another story!

For the side if this argument opposing my stance, you expect there to be evidence and studies done on something that they say doesn't and isn't happening? Why would any such thing exist?

For evidence of sand impaction, call a tortoise vet and ask for X-rays and case studies. I've never saved any of this material because I never imagined I would have to defend what I've seen to a bunch of people who should know darn well that its true.

If someone out there wants to F___ around with sand and find out, they are free to do so. In the mean time, I will not, and will not be recommending others do.

 

[wellington]

For the side if this argument opposing my stance, you expect there to be evidence and studies done on something that they say doesn't and isn't happening? Why would any such thing exist?

For evidence of sand impaction, call a tortoise vet and ask for X-rays and case studies. I've never saved any of this material because I never imagined I would have to defend what I've seen to a bunch of people who should know darn well that its true.

If someone out there wants to F___ around with sand and find out, they are free to do so. In the mean time, I will not, and will not be recommending others do.

No, all I expected were xrays to be posted. Of course those that don't believe it's a problem, likely wouldn't be happy with one X-ray, but I don't think a butt load of X-rays would satisfy them either.
Sadly they don't understand the difference in "in the wild" and being "captive". Also that if it's not "needed" to maintain the health of a tortoise, but can cause "damage" then why use it.
I know my tortoises and yours will not be impacted by sand. Unfortunately not everyone can say that.

 

[wellington]

Yes, I would prefer to see some research articles compared to what evidence has been seen here previously. So if you have some to back up your claims keep them coming!

Unfortunately there isn't even enough, if any, proper care sheets out there, I doubt there is any studies.
Even if there were, would they cover all the aspects of the way the tortoise was cared for.
The simple answer is do not use it, it offers no benefits, but does offer potential for impaction and death.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

Unfortunately there isn't even enough, if any, proper care sheets out there, I doubt there is any studies.
Even if there were, would they cover all the aspects of the way the tortoise was cared for.
The simple answer is do not use it, it offers no benefits, but does offer potential for impaction and death.

Seems you and I see eye to eye on that point. It's like the whole concept of tortoise biology / physiology is in its infancy.

 

[EppsDynasty]

Ummmm ..... This is like teaching algebra to a kindergartener. My point is that this is useless. There are people that are positive they know "What they're saying, is fact" Well in our family we have a saying "To stupid to know their stupid"

DISCLAIMER: I am calling no one here stupid or a kindergartener. I am only using these as analogies.
Analogy: A thing which is comparable to something else in significant respects.
The significant respects are that some people are NEVER going to get it.

I feel people on this subject are dug in on "Their Idea of what is happening" and are not going to budge no matter the information provided. ?If X-Rays were provided are we to expect that there won't be someone saying "But...."? I am positive no matter the info provided there will ALWAYS be some disagreement from someone! You are free to put your tortoise on sand, just like no one is going to make you wipe your behind, no one can take that away from you.
And 1 more thing .... I thought this was great, THIS IS a debate. There doesn't always need to be a winner and loser.

 

[wellington]

Ummmm ..... This is like teaching algebra to a kindergartener. My point is that this is useless. There are people that are positive they know "What they're saying, is fact" Well in our family we have a saying "To stupid to know their stupid"

DISCLAIMER: I am calling no one here stupid or a kindergartener. I am only using these as analogies.
Analogy: A thing which is comparable to something else in significant respects.
The significant respects are that some people are NEVER going to get it.

I feel people on this subject are dug in on "Their Idea of what is happening" and are not going to budge no matter the information provided. ?If X-Rays were provided are we to expect that there won't be someone saying "But...."? I am positive no matter the info provided there will ALWAYS be some disagreement from someone! You are free to put your tortoise on sand, just like no one is going to make you wipe your behind, no one can take that away from you.
And 1 more thing .... I thought this was great, THIS IS a debate. There doesn't always need to be a winner and loser.

Agree. However, when proof is never produced, it makes a lot of people wonder if there really is any.
After all, how much do we really know about anyone on a forum. We can only take them for what they say, but how much of it is puffing. There will always be people doubting whether there is one piece of proof or hundreds. Some people just will always be closed minded even with real proof in their face. But some people will be more open to believing what they see, proof.
I personally think it's very simple as I already stated in another post. But, others are still ? to see it.

 

[Fluffy]

I feel people on this subject are dug in on "Their Idea of what is happening" and are not going to budge no matter the information provided. ?If X-Rays were provided are we to expect that there won't be someone saying "But...."? I am positive no matter the info provided there will ALWAYS be some disagreement from someone! You are free to put your tortoise on sand, just like no one is going to make you wipe your behind, no one can take that away from you.
And 1 more thing .... I thought this was great, THIS IS a debate. There doesn't always need to be a winner and loser.

Also I wish people would understand that two things can be true at the same time. Should we recommend sand, do they need sand? Nope! Can we learn something? Yes!! There is so much we have yet to learn and if people would open their minds and think about what we can take away from even bad husbandry our animals will benefit. I know more about sand now then I ever thought I would🙂. I feel I've got a better understanding of why it works for some people. I know there's more I would like to know. There is so much knowledge here and it would be a shame if we only stuck to info on a care sheet.

 

[mark1]

going back to the beginning, the dude amended his substrate with sand, he never said he uses sand as his substrate??

not at all like teaching algebra to kindergarteners, math is not subjective.........

i can find quite a few x-rays of impacted tortoises???

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

This thread reminds me of my ex 😂 nobody is gonna give in

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

Then its an ex.. take it with a grain of sand

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

Im not buying a damn popcorn maker

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

going back to the beginning, the dude amended his substrate with sand, he never said he uses sand as his substrate??

not at all like teaching algebra to kindergarteners, math is not subjective.........

i can find quite a few x-rays of impacted tortoises???

Mark, I know you are good at finding and getting research papers. Any chance to look at this one? https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=19840&id=8249919 (Surgery of sand-impacted Aldabra, hopefully with X-rays).

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Agree. However, when proof is never produced, it makes a lot of people wonder if there really is any.
After all, how much do we really know about anyone on a forum. We can only take them for what they say, but how much of it is puffing. There will always be people doubting whether there is one piece of proof or hundreds. Some people just will always be closed minded even with real proof in their face. But some people will be more open to believing what they see, proof.
I personally think it's very simple as I already stated in another post. But, others are still ? to see it.

Yeah, I have never before heard about coco coir causing impactions, and would have loved to see some proof, like x-rays or studies. Because you are right, I don't know the people here personally. I guess I will just continue using coir.

 

[wellington]

Mark, I know you are good at finding and getting research papers. Any chance to look at this one? https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=19840&id=8249919 (Surgery of sand-impacted Aldabra, hopefully with X-rays).

Wow, sand impaction of an Aldabra. Would love to see that report and X-rays. Would love to know the age/size of it.
Maybe @jaizei can find more on that.

 

[EppsDynasty]

I have to say I was soooo worried some may have found my last post ... a little to harsh. But instead it was taken well and in the way I intended it to be. @Fluffy was the Original Poster and ...

I know more about sand now then I ever thought I would🙂. I feel I've got a better understanding of why it works for some people. I know there's more I would like to know. There is so much knowledge here and it would be a shame if we only stuck to info on a care sheet

He had a question or at least wanted to understand/learn more, which is exactly what happened.
This was what was to be expected ....
Each participant shared the information they thought would sway some on the other side to "see the light" and read the other sides info that were thinking the same thing, it would help sway some to their side.
Understandably some got ruffled feathers but no real harm was done (said). We are in the infancy of this area of animal husbandry and these people that took part in this (and ones that just were readers) will hopefully have more knowledge/info in 10 years. In 10 years this debate takes place and more is learned and shared. And maybe there will be more "Proof" of either side of this debate to be shared with others, who then get to "on their own" make decisions for their torts.

I regularly have debates with friends, neighbors, delivery drivers, utility workers, heck even people that are just lost and need directions. I cannot think of ANY other place on this planet that this debate could take place. TFO for life!

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I have to say I was soooo worried some may have found my last post ... a little to harsh. But instead it was taken well and in the way I intended it to be. @Fluffy was the Original Poster and ...

He had a question or at least wanted to understand/learn more, which is exactly what happened.
This was what was to be expected ....
Each participant shared the information they thought would sway some on the other side to "see the light" and read the other sides info that were thinking the same thing, it would help sway some to their side.
Understandably some got ruffled feathers but no real harm was done (said). We are in the infancy of this area of animal husbandry and these people that took part in this (and ones that just were readers) will hopefully have more knowledge/info in 10 years. In 10 years this debate takes place and more is learned and shared. And maybe there will be more "Proof" of either side of this debate to be shared with others, who then get to "on their own" make decisions for their torts.

I regularly have debates with friends, neighbors, delivery drivers, utility workers, heck even people that are just lost and need directions. I cannot think of ANY other place on this planet that this debate could take place. TFO for life!

Here, here! No name calling, degradation, etc. Very civil debate. I walk away with far more questions...some of which I hadn't thought to ask before. Much of it involves uncharted or at least undocumented research. If we were all as fortunate as Tom in being able to witness surgeries first hand or be friends with renown specialists/experts, then perhaps these topics would be less controversial. As it stands, many of us must rely on the experiences of others. That's what makes TFO unique and why I continue to be a supporter.

 

[EppsDynasty]

Here, here! No name calling, degradation, etc. Very civil debate. I walk away with far more questions...some of which I hadn't thought to ask before. Much of it involves uncharted or at least undocumented research. If we were all as fortunate as Tom in being able to witness surgeries first hand or be friends with renown specialists/experts, then perhaps these topics would be less controversial. As it stands, many of us must rely on the experiences of others. That's what makes TFO unique and why I continue to be a supporter.

You said it far better than I ! And 100% true.

 

[S2G]

Your attempts to derail the discussion keep failing, but you are sure persistent. I could keep coming up with banal analogies trying to explain, but you clearly don't want to get the point.

Again, we aren't discussing wild tortoises and how they live. I have not seen any wild tortoises that were confirmed dead from sand impaction. If its happening out there, I am not aware of it. What we are discussing is the risks and merits of adding sand to the environment of a captive torts enclosure. Because of where I live, one of the primary areas in this country where many people keep tortoises, along with AZ, parts of Texas and Florida, and because of my lifelong affiliation with many practicing veterinarians, I have simply seen some things that other people around the country clearly have not seen.

How many people are raising gopher tortoises in sandy indoor enclosures? As far as I've been told, it is illegal to keep them in areas where they occur. Is that incorrect? Your enclosure is not like the wild.

If you are determined to take this as some sort of personal insult, there is nothing I can do to stop you.

Im on track. You just dont like that im not agreeing with you. Im just talking why would i be insulted? All you keep repeating is "I'm Tom take my word for it". I work on a balance of probabilities. This just doesnt calculate as near enough risk to worry about is all.

Again sand is sand is sand. Inside, outside, captive, wild. It really doesnt matter if its a risk in one environment its a risk in another. I really can't understand why thats all compartmentalized & youre not providing verifiable proof for some us to believe you. If anything it should be way more of a risk to a wild animal subjected to a way harsher climate.

Gopher tortoises live in the some of worst sandy soil imagineable, but are just fine. Inside or outside again doesnt matter. If i was able to dig up a huge area around a burrow & bring it inside to an exhibit the sand doesnt miraciously turn into a hazard.

 

[wellington]

Im on track. You just dont like that im not agreeing with you. Im just talking why would i be insulted? All you keep repeating is "I'm Tom take my word for it". I work on a balance of probabilities. This just doesnt calculate as near enough risk to worry about is all.

Again sand is sand is sand. Inside, outside, captive, wild. It really doesnt matter if its a risk in one environment its a risk in another. I really can't understand why thats all compartmentalized & youre not providing verifiable proof for some us to believe you. If anything it should be way more of a risk to a wild animal subjected to a way harsher climate.

Gopher tortoises live in the some of worst sandy soil imagineable, but are just fine. Inside or outside again doesnt matter. If i was able to dig up a huge area around a burrow & bring it inside to an exhibit the sand doesnt miraciously turn into a hazard.

Where's the proof gopher tortoises are just fine? Where's your proof that sand isn't much of a risk?
No one is showing proof of what they are saying. If you want proof, show yours!