Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[mark1]

Surgery of sand-impacted Aldabra, hopefully with X-rays).

i did find this, the obstruction was gravel, my guess would be the example you found would also be gravel..... in this case it is a pound of gravel and a 200lb tortoise, which would have me think the gravel was ingested all at once and purposefully......also i'm guessing the pound of gravel was not the primary cause..... i had 130-140lb dog eat at least a pound of dirt..... you know how gas grills have that pan for catching grease? if its not in the grease drips on the ground, i caught my dog eating the dirt under the grill the next day, a pound of dirt is on the conservative side.......

SURGICAL AND MEDICAL MANAGEMENT OF A GASTROINTESTINAL OBSTRUCTION IN AN ALDABRA TORTOISE, Geochel ne gigantea Mark Kombert, V '* Randall .. Junge, S, DACZM cause.

What verifiable proof is there? You want me to go find an X-ray of a sand impacted tortoise?

i don't think you could find one, possibly one of your veterinarian friends could get you one? i 'd say don't feed your tortoises off the ground, feed them off some sort of hard surface..... they do eat substrate, gravel appears to be a riskier culprit, i do believe there is more to it than the amount of substrate eaten stuck to food....

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

i did find this, the obstruction was gravel, my guess would be the example you found would also be gravel..... in this case it is a pound of gravel and a 200lb tortoise, which would have me think the gravel was ingested all at once and purposefully......also i'm guessing the pound of gravel was not the primary cause..... i had 130-140lb dog eat at least a pound of dirt..... you know how gas grills have that pan for catching grease? if its not in the grease drips on the ground, i caught my dog eating the dirt under the grill the next day, a pound of dirt is on the conservative side.......

SURGICAL AND MEDICAL MANAGEMENT OF A GASTROINTESTINAL OBSTRUCTION IN AN ALDABRA TORTOISE, Geochel ne gigantea Mark Kombert, V '* Randall .. Junge, S, DACZM cause.

i don't think you could find one, possibly one of your veterinarian friends could get you one? i 'd say don't feed your tortoises off the ground, feed them off some sort of hard surface..... they do eat substrate, gravel appears to be a riskier culprit, i do believe there is more to it than the amount of substrate eaten stuck to food....

Authors names don't match, but most likely cases study, I've found, referenced this paper by Kombert. And "gravel" became "sand" because of translation inaccuracy.

And, yes, there are X-rays of tortoises impacted with gravel...

 

[Fluffy]

i did find this, the obstruction was gravel, my guess would be the example you found would also be gravel..... in this case it is a pound of gravel and a 200lb tortoise, which would have me think the gravel was ingested all at once and purposefully......also i'm guessing the pound of gravel was not the primary cause..... i had 130-140lb dog eat at least a pound of dirt..... you know how gas grills have that pan for catching grease? if its not in the grease drips on the ground, i caught my dog eating the dirt under the grill the next day, a pound of dirt is on the conservative side.......

SURGICAL AND MEDICAL MANAGEMENT OF A GASTROINTESTINAL OBSTRUCTION IN AN ALDABRA TORTOISE, Geochel ne gigantea Mark Kombert, V '* Randall .. Junge, S, DACZM cause.

i don't think you could find one, possibly one of your veterinarian friends could get you one? i 'd say don't feed your tortoises off the ground, feed them off some sort of hard surface..... they do eat substrate, gravel appears to be a riskier culprit, i do believe there is more to it than the amount of substrate eaten stuck to food....

In the article @Alex and the Redfoot posted it mentions gravel impaction and the animal being severly calcium deficient. I bet we would be hard pressed to find a healthy, well cared for animal with an impaction.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

It doesnt matter anymore. Theres been enough back & forth discussion to determine this is all a matter of opinion.

It's a bit more than opinion. You can't just use any sand in any proportion with any species on diet of grocery store produce amended with classic Mazuri. Those who use sand and those who don't admit that it can cause impactions. Then you can either ditch sand at all and be less restricted with diet, enclosure size and so or use sand and ensure that all husbandry aspects are top-notch with less margin for an error.

 

[Fluffy]

It's a bit more than opinion. You can't just use any sand in any proportion with any species on diet of grocery store produce amended with classic Mazuri. Those who use sand and those who don't admit that it can cause impactions. Then you can either ditch sand at all and be less restricted with diet, enclosure size and so or use sand and ensure that all husbandry aspects are top-notch with less margin for an error.

Perfect summary!

 

[S2G]

Then you can either ditch sand at all and be less restricted with diet, enclosure size and so or use sand and ensure that all husbandry aspects are top-notch with less margin for an error.

You can either provide what that animal needs or you need to get something else. Its not the substrates fault you stuck an animal in too small of a box & fed it the wrong diet. I mean is putting a piece of slate down to feed off of really that hard?

Its so wild to me. Most would commend keeping animals in a naturalistic way, but here we are.

Toms way works & so does Chris's.

 

[Tom]

It doesnt matter anymore. Theres been enough back & forth discussion to determine this is all a matter of opinion.

No, that is not correct. It is not my opinion that some tortoises get sand impacted. It is also not my opinion that a tortoise that is NOT housed on sand cannot ever get sand impacted. Those are facts. Indisputable facts.

Whether or not this matters to you is your opinion. Tortoise deaths that could be prevented by me speaking up do matter to me. That is my opinion.

 

[Wolfpax]

As an admitted total newbie to tort keeping, I have learned several things from this discussion:
1. Sand is a far more complicated thing than I realized.
2. There is a lot of knowledge here.
3. After reading this whole thread, I’m right where I started. Sand is risky idea for indoor substrate, so I will not be using it.

I work in IT. People want to argue with me all the time about things that have been proven to be best practices. All I can do is let them know the deal, and hope they don’t prove me correct when they choose to ignore it.

A tortoise is a precious life. In captivity they depend on us to get it right. I don’t gamble when it comes to those who depend on me.

Thanks to all for the lively discussion.

 

[Tom]

It's a bit more than opinion. You can't just use any sand in any proportion with any species on diet of grocery store produce amended with classic Mazuri. Those who use sand and those who don't admit that it can cause impactions. Then you can either ditch sand at all and be less restricted with diet, enclosure size and so or use sand and ensure that all husbandry aspects are top-notch with less margin for an error.

You can either provide what that animal needs or you need to get something else. Its not the substrates fault you stuck an animal in too small of a box & fed it the wrong diet. I mean is putting a piece of slate down to feed off of really that hard?

Reminder to both of you and everyone reading: We do not know why some animals get impacted and some do not. The proposed factors listed here on this thread may have something to do with it, nothing to do with it, or everything to do with it. Why it sometimes happens and sometimes doesn't happen is not known by me or anyone else on this thread. I think it is a mistake to assume that is has something to do with diet or enclosure size or hydration. It might have something to do with those factors, or it might not. As I stated before, many of the DT cases here on the west coast are animals living in huge yards with plenty of room to roam and eating a mostly natural diet of grasses and weeds. Admittedly, I do not know if these animals were well hydrated or not. I'm saying it is a mistake to just assume that they were not.

Further, it seems at least plausible, if not likely, to me that the type of sand, as explained by @EppsDynasty might have something to do with it too.

Its so wild to me. Most would commend keeping animals in a naturalistic way, but here we are.

This is not where we are at all. No one is arguing against "naturalistic keeping". I certainly am not. I am advocating, as I always do, for avoiding those parts of wild living that are harmful or dangerous. Things like predation, unnatural temperature extremes, toxic plants from other parts of the world, and sand, which we all agree can sometimes cause problems in at least some situations. You can see this everyday. Its why I tell people in the frozen north to not get a sulcata. Its why I myself do not keep red foots or Indotestudo. My climate is far too hot and dry, and those species just don't do well here. Its too unnatural. All of my adults live outside full time, with appropriate help for each species to overcome weather extremes. I tell other people how to overcome their climactic limitations and house their tortoises outside too. Its part of my care sheets.

Toms way works & so does Chris's.

I thank you for this admission, but I must disagree. This very assertion is the primary reason this whole discussion was started. My way, with no sand added, absolutely does work to prevent sand impaction 100% of the time. They can't get sand impacted if there is no sand. As much as I like Chris and the work he does, and I highly respect his vast knowledge of all the Testudo species and subspecies, his way does not always work. The whole reason for this discussion is that some tortoise do get impacted with sand some of the time. That is the reason for me disagreeing with his video and his recommendation for people to use sand as part of their substrate. We've come full circle.

 

[Tom]

As an admitted total newbie to tort keeping, I have learned several things from this discussion:
1. Sand is a far more complicated thing than I realized.
2. There is a lot of knowledge here.
3. After reading this whole thread, I’m right where I started. Sand is risky idea for indoor substrate, so I will not be using it.

I work in IT. People want to argue with me all the time about things that have been proven to be best practices. All I can do is let them know the deal, and hope they don’t prove me correct when they choose to ignore it.

A tortoise is a precious life. In captivity they depend on us to get it right. I don’t gamble when it comes to those who depend on me.

Thanks to all for the lively discussion.

Thank you for chiming in. Your insight is appreciated. My mission was accomplished.

 

[S2G]

No, that is not correct. It is not my opinion that some tortoises get sand impacted. It is also not my opinion that a tortoise that is NOT housed on sand cannot ever get sand impacted. Those are facts. Indisputable facts.

Whether or not this matters to you is your opinion. Tortoise deaths that could be prevented by me speaking up do matter to me. That is my opinion.

Facts & feelings are 2 different matters. You feel from your experience that sand is the issue, but you cant back that up with facts. Some of us conclude that its in the husbandry aspect that will cause issues regardless.

If theyre ok in the wild & ok in a pen then not ok inside. Then deductive reasoning would conclude that its not the constant, but the variable.

 

[Tom]

Facts & feelings are 2 different matters. You feel from your experience that sand is the issue, but you cant back that up with facts.

Agreed. Facts and feelings are decidedly different things. It is not my feeling that sand is an issue. It is a fact, as seen in countless necropsies and x rays. I asked you before, what more facts could anyone provide? You want to see x-rays? You don't believe that some tortoises have died from sand impaction?

Some of us conclude that its in the husbandry aspect that will cause issues regardless.

This may or may not be an erroneous conclusion. Neither of us has any data or personal experience to argue for or against this proposed theory. Exceptions to any assertion abound.

If theyre ok in the wild & ok in a pen then not ok inside. Then deductive reasoning would conclude that its not the constant, but the variable.

Again, we don't know if this happens in the wild or not. I would speculate that it doesn't happen much, or they'd be extinct, but no one has any data to say it does or doesn't happen. I have never come across a dead tortoise in the wild that wasn't already a skeleton. I've seen no reference to this one way or the other anywhere.

Who said they are okay in a pen? I've told you multiple times that some, perhaps most, of the cases I've seen were housed in outdoor pens. The only constant in any sand impaction case is sand. Everything else is a variable.

This is so simple man. Sand sometimes causes impactions. We don't know when or why or under what circumstance, but it does. It causes skin and eye irritations and infections too. Let's not forget that part. Therefore, let's not recommend that people add it in on purpose. That's it. That's all this is. Why is that so hard for you to swallow?

 

[dd33]

i did find this, the obstruction was gravel, my guess would be the example you found would also be gravel..... in this case it is a pound of gravel and a 200lb tortoise, which would have me think the gravel was ingested all at once and purposefully......also i'm guessing the pound of gravel was not the primary cause..... i had 130-140lb dog eat at least a pound of dirt..... you know how gas grills have that pan for catching grease? if its not in the grease drips on the ground, i caught my dog eating the dirt under the grill the next day, a pound of dirt is on the conservative side.......

SURGICAL AND MEDICAL MANAGEMENT OF A GASTROINTESTINAL OBSTRUCTION IN AN ALDABRA TORTOISE, Geochel ne gigantea Mark Kombert, V '* Randall .. Junge, S, DACZM cause.

i don't think you could find one, possibly one of your veterinarian friends could get you one? i 'd say don't feed your tortoises off the ground, feed them off some sort of hard surface..... they do eat substrate, gravel appears to be a riskier culprit, i do believe there is more to it than the amount of substrate eaten stuck to food....

Nice find, I haven't seen this paper.

A healthy 90kg Aldabra that is eating plenty of grass and walking around could probably eat a pound of gravel every day with no ill effect. I would guess there was an underlying health issue / poor husbandry.

 

[Wolfpax]

Thank you for chiming in. Your insight is appreciated. My mission was accomplished.

Indeed it was. 🙂

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I’ll admit I’ve only skimmed some of the later responses here, but am I missing something.. is there an added benefit to purposely adding sand that is making people particularly passionate about finding out why some suffer ill effects and some don’t?

I don’t think anyone here knows for 100% certain why that’s the case, perhaps it is housing, diet etc(would be my best guess too) but perhaps it’s not.

I understand some folks can’t guarantee the soil in their yard doesn’t have sand, but again I’m left questioning, what potential benefits are there to purposely adding it? Do they outweigh the potential risks?

If we can all for the most part agree that we shouldn’t be encouraging purposely adding sand, regardless of why some are fine on it and others aren’t, surely the reasoning behind the potential risks shouldn’t matter this much? I’d understand if there were amazing life changing benefits to the tortoises life for adding it, but I just don’t see any?

I’m always open for friendly discussion🙂

 

[Tom]

Something else just occurred to me in reflecting on what I've seen and trying to think of what "evidence" could be provided. In two of the sand impaction cases I've seen, both people had seen reference material indicating that tortoises lived on sand or sandy soil in the wild and thought it would be a good idea to add sand to their tortoises environment in an effort to keep it naturalistic and stated that they wanted to give their animal choices. One read it in a book and the other claimed to have seen it on the internet, so my vet friend told me. I did not see the enclosure or converse with the clients, so I don't know if it was a sand pit, or sand mixed in with soil, and I don't know how the tortoise came to ingest the sand. I did see the tortoises, and listen to what the vet told me about each case.

 

[mark1]

imo the best kind of soil has around 40% sand content...... i've added sand to every enclosure i have, might have been 20 yrs ago, but i added substantial amounts of sand to my soil........ i have a room in my basement i lined with a pond liner, i put a layer of gravel, mesh, 2 pvc vents, and filled it with soil i made, sand is a major ingredient in that soil...... plants grow in it, it's been there for over 20 yrs, it works...... if you got decent soil in your area i guarantee it's nearly half sand...... my wood turtle enclosure has spots i'm sure are 80% sand

 

[Fluffy]

If we can all for the most part agree that we shouldn’t be encouraging purposely adding sand, regardless of why some are fine on it and others aren’t, surely the reasoning behind the potential risks shouldn’t matter this much? I’d understand if there were amazing life changing benefits to the tortoises life for adding it, but I just don’t see any?

I’m always open for friendly discussion🙂

I realize we're 10 pages in at this point. So incase there are others who have only skimmed the thread let me reiterate why I started this from the beginning. I believe the reason we see impaction from sand and other substrate is partly if not mostly husbandry issues. My thoughts were if I could figure out what those were we could improve our husbandry minus the sand. It was never intended to be a let's all add sand to everything thread. There are so many people using sand without issue that I wanted to compare and maybe see what they were or were not doing. I have realized there are many variables here and have found this discussion very enlightening. It was never in defense of adding sand.

 

[Fluffy]

Something else just occurred to me in reflecting on what I've seen and trying to think of what "evidence" could be provided. In two of the sand impaction cases I've seen, both people had seen reference material indicating that tortoises lived on sand or sandy soil in the wild and thought it would be a good idea to add sand to their tortoises environment in an effort to keep it naturalistic and stated that they wanted to give their animal choices. One read it in a book and the other claimed to have seen it on the internet, so my vet friend told me. I did not see the enclosure or converse with the clients, so I don't know if it was a sand pit, or sand mixed in with soil, and I don't know how the tortoise came to ingest the sand. I did see the tortoises, and listen to what the vet told me about each case.

Tom I have seen pictures of aquariums and open top indoor enclosures with only sand as a substrate. I believe they were always keeping sulcata. I'm not sure where this idea came from.