Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I realize we're 10 pages in at this point. So incase there are others who have only skimmed the thread let me reiterate why I started this from the beginning. I believe the reason we see impaction from sand and other substrate is partly if not mostly husbandry issues. My thoughts were if I could figure out what those were we could improve our husbandry minus the sand. It was never intended to be a let's all add sand to everything thread. There are so many people using sand without issue that I wanted to compare and maybe see what they were or were not doing. I have realized there are many variables here and have found this discussion very enlightening. It was never in defense of adding sand.

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification🙂

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

It makes such a great soil additive. Keeps the soil airy, plants thrive in it, keep nails filed down, encourages more natural digging behaviour, etc etc. Inside once its "cycled" its creates really stable parameters. My outdoor pens would be a muddy mess right now without it. My indoor is just a replica of my outdoor setups.

I guarantee the problem isnt the sand. Its feeding off the substrate with high moisture produce in a dry environment. Which will cause issues regardless. This is just a hill this guy has decided to die on for some reason.

All those benefits you’ve listed can be provided with safe substrates that don’t have the added potential risks though no? not just impaction, irritating the skin and eyes for example😕

 

[Tom]

Tom I have seen pictures of aquariums and open top indoor enclosures with only sand as a substrate. I believe they were always keeping sulcata. I'm not sure where this idea came from.

Yes. I remember those days. Bearded dragons and leopard geckos too.

 

[wellington]

It makes such a great soil additive. Keeps the soil airy, plants thrive in it, keep nails filed down, encourages more natural digging behaviour, etc etc. Inside once its "cycled" its creates really stable parameters. My outdoor pens would be a muddy mess right now without it. My indoor is just a replica of my outdoor setups.

I guarantee the problem isnt the sand. Its feeding off the substrate with high moisture produce in a dry environment. Which will cause issues regardless. This is just a hill this guy has decided to die on for some reason.

You have zero proof to say you guarantee the problem isn't the sand!

 

[TammyJ]

There are NO BENEFITS to sand as a substrate for tortoises. Maybe for the keeper, but NOT for the animal. I think I may already have said that though. I just don't want this thread to end. Sorry, Dana. @EppsDynasty

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I just don't want this thread to end.

Playing out like a TFO version of a soap opera? "Like sands through the hourglass..."? 😆

 

[TammyJ]

Playing out like a TFO version of a soap opera? "Like sands through the hourglass..."? 😆

That's excellent 👍

 

[TammyJ]

Happy Birthday!

 

[wellington]

Playing out like a TFO version of a soap opera? "Like sands through the hourglass..."? 😆

Happy Birthday

 

[EppsDynasty]

@TammyJ .... I did think this was winding down a little , then BOOM, it blew up faster than our local fire. And it does resemble a Soap Opera a bit.
@Tim Carlisle Today Is Your Day and I Hope It is as Special as You ! Happy Birthday

I tried to explain the complexities of Sand and the many types, with no real standard. It seems the responses here on this thread are the same, no real standard and pretty complex. As it seems I have repeated myself, again, I am on "Audience" list now.

 

[mark1]

you could not make an acceptable soil without sand...........

how many people reading this have dealt with any kind of obstruction in your tortoise???

every line or picture below is a different case along with the cause of the obstruction, 8 different cases, the only 8 i looked at.

• On the basis of radiological examination, it was decided to a case foreign body in stomach and plan for surgical removal of foreign body according to body condition of tortoise
• 
  
• Necropsy examination of a male giant Aldabra tortoise (Testudo gigantea Schweigger), reported to have died suddenly, revealed an upper intestinal obstruction due to a 180'clockwise torsion of the intestine.

• Evaluation of a dorsoventral survey radiograph revealed a round mineral opacity in the pelvic canal (suspected to be an obstructive cloacal calculus) and gas distention of the gastrointestinal tract
• 
  
• The colon showing a large mass of entangled polythene and cotton material (Arrow) obstructing the lumen
• 
  
• Three full-thickness longitudinal incisions were made along the antimesenteric border of the intestine. One hundred and five stones were removed.

• Upon further inspection and dissection, the foreign body was found to be composed of plant materials with the absence of mineral materials and, thus, was interpreted as being a phytobezoar​

• ​

• ​

• Aperture of celomatic cavity of the yellow-footed tortoise (Geochelone denticulata) with exposure of the stomach and initial incision. (B) Diverse foreign bodies (nails, toothpicks, stones, pieces of plastic, glass and crockery​

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

you could not make an acceptable soil without sand...........

how many people reading this have dealt with any kind of obstruction in your tortoise???

every line or picture below is a different case along with the cause of the obstruction, 8 different cases, the only 8 i looked at.

• On the basis of radiological examination, it was decided to a case foreign body in stomach and plan for surgical removal of foreign body according to body condition of tortoise
• 
  
• Necropsy examination of a male giant Aldabra tortoise (Testudo gigantea Schweigger), reported to have died suddenly, revealed an upper intestinal obstruction due to a 180'clockwise torsion of the intestine.

• Evaluation of a dorsoventral survey radiograph revealed a round mineral opacity in the pelvic canal (suspected to be an obstructive cloacal calculus) and gas distention of the gastrointestinal tract
• 
  
• The colon showing a large mass of entangled polythene and cotton material (Arrow) obstructing the lumen
• 
  
• Three full-thickness longitudinal incisions were made along the antimesenteric border of the intestine. One hundred and five stones were removed.

• Upon further inspection and dissection, the foreign body was found to be composed of plant materials with the absence of mineral materials and, thus, was interpreted as being a phytobezoar​

• ​

• ​

• Aperture of celomatic cavity of the yellow-footed tortoise (Geochelone denticulata) with exposure of the stomach and initial incision. (B) Diverse foreign bodies (nails, toothpicks, stones, pieces of plastic, glass and crockery​

I haven't faced any issues. But my experience is not very relevant - I have my first and the only tortoise. Guess, I'm lucky with all that cypress mulch pieces sticking on her food.

EppsDynasty definitely saw some with JoJo and the others.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I tried to find theories on the internet as to why sand seems to be a bigger problem in captivity vs wild:

• "Perhaps eating sand is the result of something missing from the captive tortoise's diet. We hear reports of wild tortoises eating sand, but what they are actually eating is the fine, silty mineral earth around the base of desert plants. This fine silt has nutritional value and does not seem to cause the impactions that sand and gravel can." https://tortoise.org/general/health.html
• "In nature, some tortoises are known to engage in occasional ingestion of stones (lithopaghy) and the (often incidentally with food) ingestion of soil (geophagy). This behavior is thought not to be a problem under natural conditions and may arise because of various reasons including calcium deficiency, parasite control (Jennemann 2010), digestive aid and “marker” droppings (Sokol, 1971; Murphy, 1973; Luckenbach, 1982; Obst, 1986). “Pathological lithophagy” is also reported in captive conditions where disease may result in substrate consumption and coprolith formation (Rhodin, 1974; McArthur et al., 2004; Mader, 2006; Jennemann, 2010). Hunger has been implicated as a reason for this (Jennemann 2010), and anecdotal information suggests that dehydration may also sometimes be involved. In captivity, however, and in particular in vivariums, substrate ingestion is widely reported as a negative feature of environments where the substrate easily attaches to food or may itself become a target. Broadly, the term “pica” is used to describe the deliberate ingestion of nonfood items, and a general cause is thought to be under-stimulation (Frye, 2004). Pica-related coproliths and other obstructions should be considered serious and potentially fatal (Sokol, 1971; Luckenbach, 1982; Obst, 1986).---Prevention of pica may not be simple because although plain substrates such as paper can be used they do not allow for natural digging and other behaviors. Also, although more natural substrates such as a sand/soil mixture for Mediterranean tortoises offer some behavioral opportunities, these can be difficult to manage in small artificial conditions." https://meridian.allenpress.com/jhm...viation-of-a-Gastrointestinal-Tract-Impaction

I found this case where impaction was determined to be the cause of death: https://www.tortoise.org/general/impact.html