Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[wellington]

It doesn't matter. They wouldnt be happy with one X-ray or a 100 X-rays. They would still find a reason it wasn't the sand.
That's why this thread will keep going around and around. Not even all threads are being read of they'd know the answer to the X-ray question.
Those that want to take the risk will continue to use sand and those that don't will continue to not use it.
Hopefully those that want to promote using sand to newbies go into detail about how to use it and the risks it could possibly cause and not just give the usual short version.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I tried to find theories on the internet as to why sand seems to be a bigger problem in captivity vs wild:

• "Perhaps eating sand is the result of something missing from the captive tortoise's diet. We hear reports of wild tortoises eating sand, but what they are actually eating is the fine, silty mineral earth around the base of desert plants. This fine silt has nutritional value and does not seem to cause the impactions that sand and gravel can." https://tortoise.org/general/health.html
• "In nature, some tortoises are known to engage in occasional ingestion of stones (lithopaghy) and the (often incidentally with food) ingestion of soil (geophagy). This behavior is thought not to be a problem under natural conditions and may arise because of various reasons including calcium deficiency, parasite control (Jennemann 2010), digestive aid and “marker” droppings (Sokol, 1971; Murphy, 1973; Luckenbach, 1982; Obst, 1986). “Pathological lithophagy” is also reported in captive conditions where disease may result in substrate consumption and coprolith formation (Rhodin, 1974; McArthur et al., 2004; Mader, 2006; Jennemann, 2010). Hunger has been implicated as a reason for this (Jennemann 2010), and anecdotal information suggests that dehydration may also sometimes be involved. In captivity, however, and in particular in vivariums, substrate ingestion is widely reported as a negative feature of environments where the substrate easily attaches to food or may itself become a target. Broadly, the term “pica” is used to describe the deliberate ingestion of nonfood items, and a general cause is thought to be under-stimulation (Frye, 2004). Pica-related coproliths and other obstructions should be considered serious and potentially fatal (Sokol, 1971; Luckenbach, 1982; Obst, 1986).---Prevention of pica may not be simple because although plain substrates such as paper can be used they do not allow for natural digging and other behaviors. Also, although more natural substrates such as a sand/soil mixture for Mediterranean tortoises offer some behavioral opportunities, these can be difficult to manage in small artificial conditions." https://meridian.allenpress.com/jhm...viation-of-a-Gastrointestinal-Tract-Impaction

I found this case where impaction was determined to be the cause of death: https://www.tortoise.org/general/impact.html

Here is one more study rheorizing why tortoises ingest sand:
https://www.tortoise.org/general/ingestion_article.pdf

Here are some quotes of the speculations presented in the article:

• "Turtles may swallow coarse soils such as sand for the same reasons they ingest small stones, i.e., for grinding tough foods, for controlling internal parasites, and as a source of minerals."
• "Documenting scavenging behavior by Hermann's Tortoise (Testudo hermanni) in Serbia, Nikolić et al. (2016) note that, while the species is widely regarded as primarily herbivorous, its diet also includes "mushrooms, soil, sand, pebbles, and animal matter," a fact confirmed by several researchers. Scientists confirm that Hermann's tortoise also periodically ingests soil—geophagy—for mineral supplementation"
• "Researchers also observed redfooted tortoises ingesting sand during their foraging activities and identified sand in scat analyses. Sand could aid in the digestion of tough foods, and might be a source of minerals for the tortoises"

Species recorded eating sand in the article weren't all "arid species":

• Hermann's Tortoise (Testudo hermanni)
• Radiated tortoise (Geochelone [= Astrochelys] radiata)
• Red-footed tortoise (Chelonoidis carbonaria)

 

[Fluffy]

I found one case of sand impaction with x-rays. The article implicates that this was a soil like product that contained high levels of sand and also small white calcium chips. https://www.homebredhermanntortoises.com/about

There are probably a lot more xrays, since I saw some on google photos but when I went to the site the content wasn't free.

I think this was the problem with calci-sand. Animals that were lacking a proper diet would eat the substrate trying to replace the minerals they weren't getting naturally.

 

[mark1]

your link? not sand impaction, you may want to reread what the guy wrote? dude is advocating topsoil, we do know what the main component of topsoil is? if your enclosure can handle topsoil/dirt i say go with it.... my indoor turtles have lived in a giant planter box......for at least 20yrs, and are fed off the ground

this is what sand impaction looks like in an x-ray, looks like sand................

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Ultimately we need to ask ourselves, are there life changing benefits to the tortoise for adding sand that outweigh any potential risks? I think it’s clear at this point there isn’t.

Are the risks higher to the ‘average’ keeper who haven’t used this forum as their place of research, or taken the time to learn how to minimise the risks? I think they absolutely are.

Why would we want to potentially put tortoises at risk? We can’t control their owners level of understanding or knowledge, no matter how many in depth videos or threads are produced, what we can control is which substrates we recommend to them!

They’ll always be no end to owners who have errors in their husbandry, so going by your knowledge @mark1 that the ill effects of sand has everything to do with every aspect of their husbandry(which we still don’t know for 100% certain), why would you want to encourage owners across the spectrum to add some sand?
Thats what needs to be understood when using a platform that offers care advice, you have to cater with the average owners in mind, for the sake of the animals well being! That literally goes for any kind of animal care.

So again, why should we mark sand as a ‘safe’ addition to substrate and start recommending owners to add it? I just don’t understand that argument whatsoever, but out of respect, I’m trying to!

 

[mark1]

It doesn't matter. They wouldnt be happy with one X-ray or a 100 X-rays.

at this point one will do

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

your link? not sand impaction, you may want to reread what the guy wrote?

Yes the impaction was caused by substrate including sand, and I acknowledged that in my post.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

at this point one will do

Is it only the impaction side you’re interested in when it comes to the ‘why not to use it’ ? What about the potential irritant risks? I can’t imagine how annoying it might feel on their skin😣or if it gets into their eyes on a regular basis..

 

[mark1]

if SOIL(40-50%sand) is an eye problem, there should be a lot of blind tortoises out there

tortoise skin is made for it........

 

[wellington]

Is it only the impaction side you’re interested in when it comes to the ‘why not to use it’ ? What about the potential irritant risks? I can’t imagine how annoying it might feel on their skin😣or if it gets into their eyes on a regular basis..

I know sand sure irritates my eyes and skin. But I doubt it would a tortoises skin, unless it got in the softer crevice areas, but eyes yes.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

• Post #30, this has a photo too https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/h...very-sick-tortoise.148099/page-2#post-1403905
• OP describes tortoise having constipation, on post #5 OP claims that sand and soil were visible on xray https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/cherry-head-baby-prolapse.171429/#post-1684684
• xray showed a long solid mass, thought to be substrate. Tortoise was housed on sand, post #9 https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/sick-sulcata-impaction.68073/#post-644361 An autopsy was performed but I didn't find the results.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

if SOIL(40-50%sand) is an eye problem, there should be a lot of blind tortoises out there

tortoise skin is made for it........

I know sand sure irritates my eyes and skin. But I doubt it would a tortoises skin, unless it got in the softer crevice areas, but eyes yes.

I was thinking their armpit areas tbh😕

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Ultimately we need to ask ourselves, are there life changing benefits to the tortoise for adding sand that outweigh any potential risks? I think it’s clear at this point there isn’t.

Are the risks higher to the ‘average’ keeper who haven’t used this forum as their place of research, or taken the time to learn how to minimise the risks? I think they absolutely are.

Why would we want to potentially put tortoises at risk? We can’t control their owners level of understanding or knowledge, no matter how many in depth videos or threads are produced, what we can control is which substrates we recommend to them!

They’ll always be no end to owners who have errors in their husbandry, so going by your knowledge @mark1 that the ill effects of sand has everything to do with every aspect of their husbandry(which we still don’t know for 100% certain), why would you want to encourage owners across the spectrum to add some sand?
Thats what needs to be understood when using a platform that offers care advice, you have to cater with the average owners in mind, for the sake of the animals well being! That literally goes for any kind of animal care.

So again, why should we mark sand as a ‘safe’ addition to substrate and start recommending owners to add it? I just don’t understand that argument whatsoever, but out of respect, I’m trying to!

I feel like these points still stand though surely? @mark1 again honestly no beef here lol, as I’ve said I’m always down for some friendly discussion!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I once had someone tell me they knew of a tortoise who was on a sandy soil who developed a cyst in one of their armpits, I believe when they were taken to the vets it was said how irritating sand can be in those areas for them.
Granted I know I have zero physical evidence to back this and didn’t really know what to make of it at the time, but thought it was an interesting addition to this discussion🙂

 

[mark1]

I’m always down for some friendly discussion!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Im a little confused over this reply?☹️

 

[wellington]

I was thinking their armpit areas tbh😕

And their softer neck are, specially when they pull their heads in.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I guess, mark1's point that we should stop housing our animals outdoors because thunderstrucks a lethal. It's sarcastic but we have not enough evidence of sand being harmful. The Four Toed Edward has a good idea to search for older threads on the forum - this can highlight some cases and their context (and maybe long-awaited X-Rays).

 

[mark1]

Im a little confused over this reply?☹️

make sure to bring them in during lightning storms .............

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

make sure to bring them in during lightning storms .............

Ok… I just don’t see how that added to the discussion at hand but perhaps I’m having a slow day🥲

I was more thrown by the inclusion of the ‘I’m always down for some friendly discussion’ part of my reply😂