Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[wellington]

I’ve never said it was the sole issue for a cause of death, maybe others have but I haven’t.. me and other folks on here advise new people daily on ways to fix their husbandry, even then there can be lots of confusion on how to actually apply the information to a set up, if the coir is maintained the way that’s advised on here(which is much easier to explain than the way to properly use sand to minimise risks) I don’t think ingesting some coir is an issue..we can’t control what kind of diets and supplements everyone has access to, even when linked to the right stuff, so if it’s true that some will eat sand when there’s a slight dietary imbalance, I wouldn’t want that to start becoming a common problem we start seeing amongst the common problems we see already😕

I will however steal some snacks.. @Chubbs the tegu wouldn’t share their popcorn with me😂


If common husbandry mistakes weren’t a thing of existence, and never would be, I might see things differently.. I understand the notion of ‘well if there’s other mistakes happening the tortoise will get sick or die anyway’, not necessarily untrue I’ll give you that, however again, do we really want to throw sand into that delicate mix as an added factor to chance? Or does it make more sense to recommend things we know minimise unnecessary risks?

We can’t guarantee everyone watching that video is going to be able to mimic what Chris is doing perfectly, lots of people watch stuff and take snip bits of care information.. we can’t take for granted everyone would use it correctly, therefore no guarantee the sand wouldn’t come without some unnecessary risks.. Toms methods come without the potential sand problems.. it might seem small, but it just makes sense to not recommend it and not potentially contribute to the vast amount of issues we already see?

Lightning cannot be controlled, purposely adding sand can be


I’m not arguing that once you know how, and are up on everything, that it isn’t easy to decently duplicate a wild setting, but again, this doesn’t come easy or natural to everyone, we don’t get a say on the types of people that should or can own tortoises.. same with any animals.. it’s about catering to a wide variety, to give as many tortoises a healthy a life as possible

PHEW! That was a big one.. did anyone even make it through that?!🤣

And actually, if you watch enough of the Chris videos, you will see a lot of things he does that is not good for tortoises. One major one is mixing species. Aldabra, Rad and Sulcata all in winter housing.
Without actually going to each individuals property and seeing it all with ones eyes, one never really knows if the tortoises are being cared for properly.

 

[dd33]

Is there any way to know that sand may not have eventually caused an issue though? I only ask because it literally looks like it was starting to create its own lining, but perhaps that’s just the photo😕

Being sick likely drove the tortoise to ingest the sand either directly by eating it or picking it up in the mucous being discharged from the mouth.
Would the sand have killed it eventually? No, it would have passed right on through.
A healthy tortoise can pass darn near anything that will fit in its mouth. A sick tortoise can appear to die of impaction from every day things like leaves, hay or sand.

 

[wellington]

Being sick likely drove the tortoise to ingest the sand either directly by eating it or picking it up in the mucous being discharged from the mouth.
Would the sand have killed it eventually? No, it would have passed right on through.
A healthy tortoise can pass darn near anything that will fit in its mouth. A sick tortoise can appear to die of impaction from every day things like leaves, hay or sand.

Saying that like a tortoises has never died from a sand impaction is very misleading. You have no idea if one has or not. However, according to Tom he has seen it more than once.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Being sick likely drove the tortoise to ingest the sand either directly by eating it or picking it up in the mucous being discharged from the mouth.
Would the sand have killed it eventually? No, it would have passed right on through.
A healthy tortoise can pass darn near anything that will fit in its mouth. A sick tortoise can appear to die of impaction from every day things like leaves, hay or sand.

If tortoises get sicknesses beyond our control that can potentially drive them to eat sand, surely that’s another reason to avoid it? I know you’re saying it can pass through, but what about in those it hasn’t?😕
It just still doesn’t seem worth the risk to do, for things like leaves and hay(for grass eating species) that’s just stuff they need to eat anyway, there’s no point to purposely adding something that could cause problems with no added benefits that can’t be achieved in other risk limiting ways..

 

[S2G]

I’ve never said it was the sole issue for a cause of death, maybe others have but I haven’t.. me and other folks on here advise new people daily on ways to fix their husbandry, even then there can be lots of confusion on how to actually apply the information to a set up, if the coir is maintained the way that’s advised on here(which is much easier to explain than the way to properly use sand to minimise risks) I don’t think ingesting some coir is an issue..we can’t control what kind of diets and supplements everyone has access to, even when linked to the right stuff, so if it’s true that some will eat sand when there’s a slight dietary imbalance, I wouldn’t want that to start becoming a common problem we start seeing amongst the common problems we see already😕

I will however steal some snacks.. @Chubbs the tegu wouldn’t share their popcorn with me😂


If common husbandry mistakes weren’t a thing of existence, and never would be, I might see things differently.. I understand the notion of ‘well if there’s other mistakes happening the tortoise will get sick or die anyway’, not necessarily untrue I’ll give you that, however again, do we really want to throw sand into that delicate mix as an added factor to chance? Or does it make more sense to recommend things we know minimise unnecessary risks?

We can’t guarantee everyone watching that video is going to be able to mimic what Chris is doing perfectly, lots of people watch stuff and take snip bits of care information.. we can’t take for granted everyone would use it correctly, therefore no guarantee the sand wouldn’t come without some unnecessary risks.. Toms methods come without the potential sand problems.. it might seem small, but it just makes sense to not recommend it and not potentially contribute to the vast amount of issues we already see?

Lightning cannot be controlled, purposely adding sand can be


I’m not arguing that once you know how, and are up on everything, that it isn’t easy to decently duplicate a wild setting, but again, this doesn’t come easy or natural to everyone, we don’t get a say on the types of people that should or can own tortoises.. same with any animals.. it’s about catering to a wide variety, to give as many tortoises a healthy a life as possible

PHEW! That was a big one.. did anyone even make it through that?!🤣

We got something way better than popcorn 😁

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

We got something way better than popcorn 😁
View attachment 375105

Dammit I can’t eat dairy😭you’re setting a standard for snack offerings though..don’t you tempt me😂

 

[S2G]

He literally says "i choose to add sand". Its totally your choice. Hmm im not sure about it. Cool then dont...

Your #1 goal with a baby is to not make beef jerky. If you keep it hydrated & feed off that cup he mentions youll be 100% fine if you have a healthy baby tp begin with.

What im saying once again is that its not the boogie man Tom says it is. Im 100% certain off that.

Ive rescued so many testudo its ridiculous. After i hydrate them & get them moving theyll poop out all kinds of things. Sand, mulch, coir, etc. Ive found babies that eluded me until theyre juvies on sandy silt.

 

[dd33]

Saying that like a tortoises has never died from a sand impaction is very misleading. You have no idea if one has or not. However, according to Tom he has seen it more than once.

I am not saying that a tortoise has never died of sand impaction, there is no way for me know that. I am saying that a basic gross necropsy performed by an inexperienced veterinarian is not enough to determine that sand, or any material giving the appearance of impaction was the cause of death in a tortoise. Even if the entire gut is filled with said material.

Again, I am not advocating for sand. I am not saying that sand is good. I am speculating that it gets a bad wrap because it was the low hanging fruit in some necropsies along the way.

 

[dd33]

If tortoises get sicknesses beyond our control that can potentially drive them to eat sand, surely that’s another reason to avoid it? I know you’re saying it can pass through, but what about in those it hasn’t?😕
It just still doesn’t seem worth the risk to do, for things like leaves and hay(for grass eating species) that’s just stuff they need to eat anyway, there’s no point to purposely adding something that could cause problems with no added benefits that can’t be achieved in other risk limiting ways..

Disease can cause a tortoise to eat substrate. It doesn't specifically cause them to eat sand, just whatever objects are near it. It could be coco coir, bark, sand, paper towels whatever. Any of these things eaten in abundance would be a problem for the tortoise.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

He literally says "i choose to add sand". It’s totally your choice. Hmm im not sure about it. Cool then dont...

But advocating it as a choice leaves it open for misuse, in ways I see being more risky than incorrect use of other substrates, the safer alternatives are so much easier to explain to a broader range of people to limit misuse too, and they can achieve everything needed with no need for sand, I could probably keep circling it back round but idk if I’m getting my point across correctly or if it’s getting misunderstood🥲

 

[wellington]

But advocating it as a choice leaves it open for misuse, in ways I see being more risky than incorrect use of other substrates, the safer alternatives are so much easier to explain to a broader range of people to limit misuse too, and they can achieve everything needed with no need for sand, I could probably keep circling it back round but idk if I’m getting my point across correctly or if it’s getting misunderstood🥲

You are very clear. Unfortunately it's going to be misread, twisted, reworded, and any other way it could go.
People aren't even being careful with their words and then deny when called on it.
All of the sides have been said to death. Everyone is ruffling their feathers and don't want to put them down.
Hopefully any newbie reading understands that sand is not needed and that they shouldn't use it. That's all we can do is keep saying it. Unfortunately most don't have the ***** to come back and say they were wrong when something bad happens when the forum warned them.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Disease can cause a tortoise to eat substrate. It doesn't specifically cause them to eat sand, just whatever objects are near it. It could be coco coir, bark, sand, paper towels whatever. Any of these things eaten in abundance would be a problem for the tortoise.

But I thought it could be argued that ingesting coir or bark comes with less potential risk for build up? The tortoises have to be housed on something in captivity, we can’t encourage store brought top soils because there’s no way of knowing what plants have gone into it, we can’t recommend moss because that’s a impaction risk, we can’t recommend anything too fibrous for the same reasons..

We have to look at the safest, least risky options for the whole spectrum, is coir and orchid bark/mulch completely risk free? No nothing is, is it the safest possible option, to help provide everything the tortoise needs? I believe so.
Does sand offer any benefits the safer alternatives can’t achieve when used properly? I think we agreed the answer is no, it’s just not a valuable or a wise recommendation imo and never will be😕

I guess I’ll have to ultimately agree to disagree with some of the views here, like wellington says, we’re all pretty much repeating ourselves at this point🥲

But I’ve found the discussion pretty interesting and informative😊

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

I will however steal some snacks.. @Chubbs the tegu wouldn’t share their popcorn with me😂

At this rate ill be getting holiday cards from Orville Redenbacher

 

[S2G]

But advocating it as a choice leaves it open for misuse, in ways I see being more risky than incorrect use of other substrates, the safer alternatives are so much easier to explain to a broader range of people to limit misuse too, and they can achieve everything needed with no need for sand, I could probably keep circling it back round but idk if I’m getting my point across correctly or if it’s getting misunderstood🥲

I understand completely and I respect your opinion. I just disagree slightly is all. I respect yours, Toms, wellingtons, etc.

Im expressing my opinion & experience within a discussion. 99% of the time i link Toms caresheet if you look. Hell i got banned for linking his sulcatta caresheet on fb.

Its debatable topics. What did you expect me to do? 😅....dont ask thy opinion if thou not ready

 

[S2G]

But advocating it as a choice leaves it open for misuse, in ways I see being more risky than incorrect use of other substrates, the safer alternatives are so much easier to explain to a broader range of people to limit misuse too, and they can achieve everything needed with no need for sand, I could probably keep circling it back round but idk if I’m getting my point across correctly or if it’s getting misunderstood🥲

The real issue at hand is my significant other tracking you down for coaxing me into bringing a 7ft constrictor into the house 🤷‍♂️

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

The real issue at hand is my significant other tracking you down for coaxing me into bringing a 7ft constrictor into the house 🤷‍♂️

The ocean that parts us definitely works in my favour there😬🤣

 

[S2G]

The ocean that parts us definitely works in my favour there😬🤣

You do realize Im stationed in the UK right 😅

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

You do realize Im stationed in the UK right 😅

I did not😬😂

 

[dd33]

But I thought it could be argued that ingesting coir or bark comes with less potential risk for build up? The

Why would coir or bark have any less chance for build up?

 

[Anastasia 22]

Our tortoises are not living in the wild.

But almost everyone here say that we need to make sure that our tortoises have enclosures close to their natural habitat. I was in Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan (Russian tortoises are native to those areas) and there's almost nothing there but sand and rocks.... Plus hot and dry climate.