Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Tim Carlisle]

As you may know, I do get caught up sometimes.

You? Really??? No!!!! 😆 🤣 😂

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

And this is my whole point. Chris's videos are so much more palatable that this cranky gate keeper stuff. If you're going to poke holes in someones caresheet you need to be able to explain yourself in a more articulate way with thorough proof.

So now this question. Do you think its more risky to post a thorough palatable video where someone has the choice to add some sand?....or being driven somewhere else forever more due to a cranky sledge hammer approach with very little proof of what theyre claiming.

What makes this bad? Ive seen it! Ok well these people have not seen it. Well my seen it is better than their seen it thats facts! Ok where are the facts? Ive seen it!...

But there’s been multiple posts added proving sand has been an issue(it doesn’t matter how big an issue you see it)for some captive tortoises, plus the many we likely don’t get to see for all the reasons that have been highlighted.
Again the debate into whether it was the cause of death is irrelevant, it became an issue, no tortoise should be jammed packed full of sand, the quality of husbandry is also irrelevant, why? Because again, we have ZERO control over peoples understanding and knowledge that they apply into their set ups, Chris and others like him can make all the ‘palatable’ videos they like including every in depth detail that goes into eliminating the risks, it doesn’t change the fact they have ZERO control over who takes snip bits of that care information, who struggle to apply the advice or the folks with dire husbandry that overhear people are adding sand into their mixes.

It’s irresponsible to recommend as a ‘safe addition’ and always will be, we’ve already cleared up the fact sand gives no life changing benefits that can’t be achieved other ways, is coir and bark 1000% safe? Nope, nothing is if there’s other husbandry issues, are they the safer options to promote without the added worry of being badly misused? Yes they are, there’s no arguing that which ever way you try and look at it I’m afraid😣

To sum up, I think it’s pretty clear the members that advise here daily are never going to want to promote using sand or praise those who do.. will that cause any harm? I don’t see any possible way it could. Will including it under ‘safe additions’ with the added explanation of every which way to avoid it becoming a problem.. I’d rather we not find out tbh.. do you really want to? Genuine question?😕because if not, I think this debate has well and truly ran its course lol

I have to say, I’ve not hated participating one bit though and hold respect for everyone that’s been involved!😊

 

[mark1]

Now, almost 2 decades after I started my blasphemous heresy against the establishment and what was perceived as "natural" tortoise care, it has become the standard all over the world.

a bit grandiose???? i may not have been here , but i'm not new...........

No one is telling you that you have had sand impaction problems. Its not about you and your turtles.

i'd be interested in hearing about the physiological differences between any testudo, redfoots, elongateds, yellowfoots, and american box turtles?

surprisingly the soil/sand doesn't seem to irritate there eyes or skin...... just rained for the first time in over a week, previous to the rain a lot of the soil was dust.........

born in this soil, 24/7/365

the "wild" 24/7/365

looks like he was rooting through the dirt, born in this dirt/sand at least 15yrs ago ........maybe box turtles eyes are better adapted to sandy dirt than tortoises eyes are?

doesn't seem to stick to them? maybe it sticks to tortoises?? his eyes do look a little irritated......

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Tom’s better at analogy's than me, but I’m still having fun here forgive me and all the poor folk who keep getting notified of this thread😂

This may read stupid af and it’s not meant to sound so bloody patronising🤣🤣but genuinely when it came to trying to translate it to some other type of animal care, there’s just too many variables, so it’s.. a fun one😅😅

I raise captive fairies in specially designed fairy chambers, substrates they seem to thrive in captivity is enchanted forest soil, with a unicorn glitter base, or just enchanted soil on its own work.
Some folks decide to purposely add pixie dust to their substrate, it admittedly mixes nicely with the unicorn glitter as is good to grow magical toadstools.
They do definitely encounter it in their natural habitats, sometimes in pretty large quantities, it’s seems the environment they’re drawn to, draws in lots of fellow mythical creatures, the climate is perfect for them, and it’s somewhere that meets all their fairy desires, I don’t think they’re drawn to the pixie dust itself personally.. anyway there’s been some reports of pixie dust being a problem for captive fairies, no one is 100% certain why it’s caused these issues for some and not others, I’m not entirely certain if it has caused problems for the wild ones, there aren’t enough studies, I’ve seen some of the reports myself, some of them could be explained by how the fairy was being kept and I think it’s likely one of the leading factors in most cases, there’s unfortunately lots of common keeping errors, too many to control.. the others have been word of mouth from some very reputable fairy keepers, obviously it’s not solid proof but it’s enough for me to not want to recommend purposely adding pixie dust to other fairy keepers, and warn them of the potential risks, no matter how small.
Our fairies are precious and there’s no point in chancing something when the unicorn glitter and enchanted soil work perfectly with little to no reports of issues with it. Some outdoor fairy chamber set ups do have enchanted soil that has pixie dust mixed in, absolutely cannot be helped, but I still wouldn’t purposely add it for captive fairies or recommend others do.. when looking at the entire picture, I don’t think it wise or responsible for people recommend it in general🧚‍♀️

✨I think most fellow fairy keepers are going to continue in not recommending it and just wanting to give people the reason/a heads up✨

 

[S2G]

But there’s been multiple posts added proving sand has been an issue(it doesn’t matter how big an issue you see it)for some captive tortoises, plus the many we likely don’t get to see for all the reasons that have been highlighted.
Again the debate into whether it was the cause of death is irrelevant, it became an issue, no tortoise should be jammed packed full of sand, the quality of husbandry is also irrelevant, why? Because again, we have ZERO control over peoples understanding and knowledge that they apply into their set ups, Chris and others like him can make all the ‘palatable’ videos they like including every in depth detail that goes into eliminating the risks, it doesn’t change the fact they have ZERO control over who takes snip bits of that care information, who struggle to apply the advice or the folks with dire husbandry that overhear people are adding sand into their mixes.

It’s irresponsible to recommend as a ‘safe addition’ and always will be, we’ve already cleared up the fact sand gives no life changing benefits that can’t be achieved other ways, is coir and bark 1000% safe? Nope, nothing is if there’s other husbandry issues, are they the safer options to promote without the added worry of being badly misused? Yes they are, there’s no arguing that which ever way you try and look at it I’m afraid😣

To sum up, I think it’s pretty clear the members that advise here daily are never going to want to promote using sand or praise those who do.. will that cause any harm? I don’t see any possible way it could. Will including it under ‘safe additions’ with the added explanation of every which way to avoid it becoming a problem.. I’d rather we not find out tbh.. do you really want to? Genuine question?😕because if not, I think this debate has well and truly ran its course lol

I have to say, I’ve not hated participating one bit though and hold respect for everyone that’s been involved!😊

Its not asbestos or sodium cyanide. Its dirt. Its passes just like everything else. They even intentional eat their soil to help sometimes as was linked earlier that people so convenietly overlook.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Its not asbestos or sodium cyanide. Its dirt. Its passes just like everything else. They even intentional eat their soil to help sometimes as was linked earlier that people so convenietly overlook.

It doesn’t always pass for them though as has been shown😣they’ll eat any kind of substrate to try and help an imbalance, I think sand has a higher chance of building up than coir or bark..

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Come and join me and my fairies on the brighter side @S2G 😉🧚‍♀️

 

[S2G]

a bit grandiose???? i may not have been here , but i'm not new...........


i'd be interested in hearing about the physiological differences between any testudo, redfoots, elongateds, yellowfoots, and american box turtles?

surprisingly the soil/sand doesn't seem to irritate there eyes or skin...... just rained for the first time in over a week, previous to the rain a lot of the soil was dust.........

born in this soil, 24/7/365

the "wild" 24/7/365

looks like he was rooting through the dirt, born in this dirt/sand at least 15yrs ago ........maybe box turtles eyes are better adapted to sandy dirt than tortoises eyes are?

doesn't seem to stick to them? maybe it sticks to tortoises?? his eyes do look a little irritated......

We are 110% not ready for that conversation 🤣

 

[S2G]

It doesn’t always pass for them though as has been shown😣they’ll eat any kind of substrate to try and help an imbalance, I think sand has a higher chance of building up than coir or bark..

They get compacted on whatever. I will get them & theyll be lethargic with a lump. I'll hydrate them & get them moving. Theyll take a huge poo of coir, sand, mulch, whatever. If theyre too far gone they go to the rescue i mentioned & their exotic vet. 99% of the time its rocks. One time it was that compressed brick stuff from the store. We think it ate dry.

Look at my backyard. If anyone should have sand impaction issue its me. I do have to be careful with pouring at liquids with dogs.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

They get compacted on whatever. I will get them & theyll be lethargic with a lump. I'll hydrate them & get them moving. Theyll take a huge poo of coir, sand, mulch, whatever. If theyre too far gone they go to the rescue i mentioned & their exotic vet. 99% of the time its rocks. One time it was that compressed brick stuff from the store. We think it ate dry.

Look at my backyard. If anyone should have sand impaction issue its me. I do have to be careful with pouring at liquids with dogs.

Sand is essentially micro rocks in my eyes lol, I’d rather avoid any tortoise eating it in a captive setting if it can be helped

 

[Tom]

a bit grandiose???? i may not have been here , but i'm not new...........

No. How do you mean? What is grandiose about that statement? People used to raise babies on rabbit pellets and aspen shavings. Now they use substrate that stays damp and try to maintain some humidity. I lost count of how many languages my info was translated into. Chinese, both Mandarin and Cantonese, Spanish in Spain and Spanish in Mexico, French, German, Arabic...

As for the rest of your post: No one is telling you that you have had sand impaction problems. Its not about you and your turtles. Though I do enjoy your pictures.

 

[EppsDynasty]

where is "hydrophobic sand" naturally found? what would be the "physics"/science behind it being "hydrophobic"?

surprisingly the soil/sand doesn't seem to irritate there eyes or skin...... just rained for the first time in over a week, previous to the rain a lot of the soil was dust........

That is Hydrophobic you mention in YOUR post ^right up there^.
This is not an invitation to try and argue, I am simply answering your question. Hydrophobic Sand/Dirt is found all over the world in Nature and naturally. Hydrophobic is basically "Dehydrated" Material.

It is clear that you (even after 19 pages) DO NOT understand the terms used and the basics of our physical world. I am pointing this out to hopefully (after 19 pages) get you to understand the basics.

That's why you don't understand what I've been saying for 18 pages.

^this was directed at @S2G^ but just the same after all these pages we are still going in a circle of death. This thread will die and the couple people that are obviously just trying to prove THEIR point instead of learning will still be saying BUT......

 

[S2G]

That is Hydrophobic you mention in YOUR post ^right up there^.
This is not an invitation to try and argue, I am simply answering your question. Hydrophobic Sand/Dirt is found all over the world in Nature and naturally. Hydrophobic is basically "Dehydrated" Material.

It is clear that you (even after 19 pages) DO NOT understand the terms used and the basics of our physical world. I am pointing this out to hopefully (after 19 pages) get you to understand the basics.

^this was directed at @S2G^ but just the same after all these pages we are still going in a circle of death. This thread will die and the couple people that are obviously just trying to prove THEIR point instead of learning will still be saying BUT......

Well you sound scientific at least...

Lets see if we can figure this out.

Hydro = water
Phobic = water-fearing
Philic = water- loving

Sand is philic which is why it drains so well. It clumps together with water with cohesion. Like sand castles at the beach..ScIeNcE

Theres all different types of sand. River, construction, silty loam, etc etc. Usually broken down by grit. White sand is powdery & smooth which is why they use it on beaches (shocker). Which you explained earlier. So yeah dont amend with construction sand thats not recommended anyway.

What Mark has is a sand loam similar to what i have. A lot of people use it for gardens etc. Since its philic it helps amends your harder ground so water doesnt pool & your soil doesnt compact. Best soil mixes out there.

Phobic is like magic sand they use in classrooms, the oil cleanup at the beach, & places like the middle east where farmers use it below their philic sand to retain water so they dont have use so much water for their crops.

 

[S2G]

This is hydrophobic. Ours is the opposite. Dry on top & moisture below

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

My guy, as I did say previously, even if we work under the assumption you’re correct about everything, it still doesn’t make sand a good thing to list under ‘safe recommended substrates’ to mix in, hell even if I’d heard just ONE captive tortoise had become impacted on it, it would be enough to put me off, let alone the multiple reports we’ve seen, regardless of the reason it happed, regardless if it was the wrong type of sand.. no one who advises here daily is going to start recommending sand or be happy about those who do.. and that’s not doing any harm whatsoever which is all that matters here.

I know you say they can get blocked with absolutely any substrate they’re housed on, again I’m not saying you’re wrong, but we’ve seen far less reports of coir or bark impaction being an issue, they have to be housed on something, it’s about weighing up the risks/benefits, sands risks don’t outweigh the benefits imo, whereas the coir and barks do.. does that make sense? I’m not the best at explaining myself😕

 

[S2G]

My guy, as I did say previously, even if we work under the assumption you’re correct about everything, it still doesn’t make sand a good thing to list under ‘safe recommended substrates’ to mix in, hell even if I’d heard just ONE captive tortoise had become impacted on it, it would be enough to put me off, let alone the multiple reports we’ve seen, regardless of the reason it happed, regardless if it was the wrong type of sand.. no one who advises here daily is going to start recommending sand or be happy about those who do.. and that’s not doing any harm whatsoever which is all that matters here.

I know you say they can get blocked with absolutely any substrate they’re housed on, again I’m not saying you’re wrong, but we’ve seen far less reports of coir or bark impaction being an issue, they have to be housed on something, it’s about weighing up the risks/benefits, sands risks don’t outweigh the benefits imo, whereas the coir and barks do.. does that make sense? I’m not the best at explaining myself😕

Heard of one you say 🤔. Are you still going to recommend coir? I mean you heard about it...Buuut theres a 2.009 % chance potato skins are better than orange peels

The bottom line is Toms experience is held as unbreakable law & you better fall in line or else!

Ive read everything & have been on hot humid sandy muggy soil my entire life. Analyzing all that i dont agree with the hard stance to the point where i believe the caresheet should be ammended. Whatever really doesnt matter.

I accept your experience & opinion. You see it differently cool dont do it.

The problem comes in that everyone is so hell bent on showing me/us how wrong we are you cant let it go a 1000 pages deep.

Until someone shows a study of how an animal evolved to live 100yrs on sand cant digest even a sprinkle due to yada yada enzymes or how theres a reaction to the mucus membrane of their eye causes their eyes to swell shut or the makeup of their skin becomes inflamed due to whatever. I mean we really don't have anything else to talk about..

Just talking outloud not trying to be "abrasive" to anyone of course.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Heard of one you say 🤔. Are you still going to recommend coir? I mean you heard about it...Buuut theres a 2.009 % chance potato skins are better than orange peels

The bottom line is Toms experience is held as unbreakable law & you better fall in line or else!

Ive read everything & have been on hot humid sandy muggy soil my entire life. Analyzing all that i dont agree with the hard stance to the point where i believe the caresheet should be ammended. Whatever really doesnt matter.

I accept your experience & opinion. You see it differently cool dont do it.

The problem comes in that everyone is so hell bent on showing me/us how wrong we are you cant let it go a 1000 pages deep.

Until someone shows a study of how an animal evolved to live 100yrs on sand cant digest even a sprinkle due to yada yada enzymes or how theres a reaction to the mucus membrane of their eye causes their eyes to swell shut or the makeup of their skin becomes inflamed due to whatever. I mean we really don't have anything else to talk about..

Just talking outloud not trying to be "abrasive" to anyone of course.

I meant if I’d hypothetically heard of only one, but that isn’t the case, I’ve heard of multiple instances happening which isn’t the case for coir or bark... I do absolutely understand where you are coming from and the conflicting views might be a little frustrating😕we’re just simply trying to limit risks wherever possible, sometimes risks are unavoidable, in this case we can avoid it altogether and advise others to do the same, which is the most responsible approach imo..

Also don’t worry I’ve not taken anything you’ve said as abrasive, you’re just talking your mind which you have every right to do and I respect that😊

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

In two papers I've linked there are two different cases of sand being harmful:
1. Intestinal mucous membrane abrasion (Jacobson). It's the sand scrubbing the intestines wall, as I can understand. I predict, that outcome is irritation of intestine, "self-digestion" because protective layer is damaged and, perhaps, perforation in the very end.
2. Sand accumulation - this term better suits what's happening and why an impaction is possible. Unfortunately, paper on necropsy has no details. And my guess, that in results table C. denticulata with liver damage and sand accumulation could be the same tortoise.

Sand accumulation probably can be prevented by husbandry changes. Sand abrasions are probably not, only by using "the right" type of sand.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

@S2G for what it’s worth you’ve raised many valid points I’d like to do more research into myself, I’m not saying my opinion will change here, but it’s definitely not a black and white situation

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

In two papers I've linked there are two different cases of sand being harmful:
1. Intestinal mucous membrane abrasion (Jacobson). It's the sand scrubbing the intestines wall, as I can understand. I predict, that outcome is irritation of intestine, "self-digestion" because protective layer is damaged and, perhaps, perforation in the very end.
2. Sand accumulation - this term better suits what's happening and why an impaction is possible. Unfortunately, paper on necropsy has no details. And my guess, that in results table C. denticulata with liver damage and sand accumulation could be the same tortoise.

Sand accumulation probably can be prevented by husbandry changes. Sand abrasions are probably not, only by using "the right" type of sand.

Now this is interesting!! I always love your input Alex, you go above and beyond in your research❤️