Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Alex and the Redfoot]

One thing which I found interesting: Tom mentioned that tortoises in large outdoor pens are still vulnerable to sand impactions. While soils in SoCal are different, most of them are loams with more or less sand. What's the course of action here, if "decent size pen" is 100+ sq.ft.? Picking up sand grains? Covering everything with bark/mulch/coco coir? Planting grass carpet?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

One thing which I found interesting: Tom mentioned that tortoises in large outdoor pens are still vulnerable to sand impactions. While soils in SoCal are different, most of them are loams with more or less sand. What's the course of action here, if "decent size pen" is 100+ sq.ft.? Picking up sand grains? Covering everything with bark/mulch/coco coir? Planting grass carpet?

Very good question! If it were me, and this is just me, I’d dig out as much as I could and plant grass carpet for most of it, then add a load of bark/mulch/coir in another part so they can dig😊

 

[S2G]

One thing which I found interesting: Tom mentioned that tortoises in large outdoor pens are still vulnerable to sand impactions. While soils in SoCal are different, most of them are loams with more or less sand. What's the course of action here, if "decent size pen" is 100+ sq.ft.? Picking up sand grains? Covering everything with bark/mulch/coco coir? Planting grass carpet?

According to our lord & savior. Let it ride...

 

[S2G]

20 pages summary so far..

Chris said he likes to add sand. People got feathers ruffled. A few us are like eh no biggy imo. Others said our opinion is wrong. We said agree to disagree. Blah blah blah...we're back at make your own determination, but the main people who reply are airing on the side of caution with a more conservative approach.

We good?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

According to our lord & savior. Let it ride...
View attachment 375363

Yes.. I don’t disagree with anything said on this message, because I’m a natural over thinker in general, my personal preference would be to remove as much sandy soil/small rocks as I could and plant grass/put other substrate down. I’m not arguing everyone has to do that, and have said quite a few times, that if where someone lives has naturally sandy soil, that cannot be helped, if someone wants to leave as is I don’t judge!
As he summed up in his message, it’s been debated intentionally adding sand to indoor set ups and such..

We good?

We’re good, been fun conversing with you🙂

 

[dd33]

I just can't see any possible way that sand is more difficult to pass than jagged and tangled pieces of mulch or bark. I would have lost at least two tortoises to mulch if I had not caught it and slowly teased the mulch pieces one by one from their cloaca. Large pieces of mulch or bark may be organic but they are probably no more digestible than sand during the typical transit time through the gut. So if substrate buildup is a concern just how much higher is the risk for sand than bark? Even the "sharpest" of sand is pretty smooth when its wet, clumped together, covered in mucous and passing through the gut. I can't imagine the sand is any more abrasive to the gut than sticks, leaves, stemmy hay, naturally consumed sand and rocks, cuttle bone or many other things these guys eat. I have a collection of photos of amazing things that tortoises have eaten and pooped out. My favorite recent one is a pencil. If they are healthy and an object fits in their mouth, odds are it will come out the other end.

If we are going to argue that some substrates are safe and some are not, I will say that cypress mulch is very dangerous and should be avoided. 1. I have gotten bags that had fire ants in them. 2. the pieces are frequently eaten by tortoises, I have seen it in two species now. 3. Cypress mulch does not actually contain cypress and much like topsoil you have no way of knowing what is in it.

Please share more more examples of substrate impaction from other sources besides threads on this forum. Without a necropsy report that includes histology of all major tissues in the body the data is incomplete though. Again, a gross necropsy with a gut full of something is NOT a definitive cause of death, it is likely only a symptom. I've posted necropsy photos full of sand with an unrelated cause of death. I can't be the only person with necropsy photos and reports with histo.