Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Alex and the Redfoot]

One thing which I found interesting: Tom mentioned that tortoises in large outdoor pens are still vulnerable to sand impactions. While soils in SoCal are different, most of them are loams with more or less sand. What's the course of action here, if "decent size pen" is 100+ sq.ft.? Picking up sand grains? Covering everything with bark/mulch/coco coir? Planting grass carpet?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

One thing which I found interesting: Tom mentioned that tortoises in large outdoor pens are still vulnerable to sand impactions. While soils in SoCal are different, most of them are loams with more or less sand. What's the course of action here, if "decent size pen" is 100+ sq.ft.? Picking up sand grains? Covering everything with bark/mulch/coco coir? Planting grass carpet?

Very good question! If it were me, and this is just me, I’d dig out as much as I could and plant grass carpet for most of it, then add a load of bark/mulch/coir in another part so they can dig😊

 

[S2G]

One thing which I found interesting: Tom mentioned that tortoises in large outdoor pens are still vulnerable to sand impactions. While soils in SoCal are different, most of them are loams with more or less sand. What's the course of action here, if "decent size pen" is 100+ sq.ft.? Picking up sand grains? Covering everything with bark/mulch/coco coir? Planting grass carpet?

According to our lord & savior. Let it ride...

 

[S2G]

20 pages summary so far..

Chris said he likes to add sand. People got feathers ruffled. A few us are like eh no biggy imo. Others said our opinion is wrong. We said agree to disagree. Blah blah blah...we're back at make your own determination, but the main people who reply are airing on the side of caution with a more conservative approach.

We good?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

According to our lord & savior. Let it ride...
View attachment 375363

Yes.. I don’t disagree with anything said on this message, because I’m a natural over thinker in general, my personal preference would be to remove as much sandy soil/small rocks as I could and plant grass/put other substrate down. I’m not arguing everyone has to do that, and have said quite a few times, that if where someone lives has naturally sandy soil, that cannot be helped, if someone wants to leave as is I don’t judge!
As he summed up in his message, it’s been debated intentionally adding sand to indoor set ups and such..

We good?

We’re good, been fun conversing with you🙂

 

[dd33]

I just can't see any possible way that sand is more difficult to pass than jagged and tangled pieces of mulch or bark. I would have lost at least two tortoises to mulch if I had not caught it and slowly teased the mulch pieces one by one from their cloaca. Large pieces of mulch or bark may be organic but they are probably no more digestible than sand during the typical transit time through the gut. So if substrate buildup is a concern just how much higher is the risk for sand than bark? Even the "sharpest" of sand is pretty smooth when its wet, clumped together, covered in mucous and passing through the gut. I can't imagine the sand is any more abrasive to the gut than sticks, leaves, stemmy hay, naturally consumed sand and rocks, cuttle bone or many other things these guys eat. I have a collection of photos of amazing things that tortoises have eaten and pooped out. My favorite recent one is a pencil. If they are healthy and an object fits in their mouth, odds are it will come out the other end.

If we are going to argue that some substrates are safe and some are not, I will say that cypress mulch is very dangerous and should be avoided. 1. I have gotten bags that had fire ants in them. 2. the pieces are frequently eaten by tortoises, I have seen it in two species now. 3. Cypress mulch does not actually contain cypress and much like topsoil you have no way of knowing what is in it.

Please share more more examples of substrate impaction from other sources besides threads on this forum. Without a necropsy report that includes histology of all major tissues in the body the data is incomplete though. Again, a gross necropsy with a gut full of something is NOT a definitive cause of death, it is likely only a symptom. I've posted necropsy photos full of sand with an unrelated cause of death. I can't be the only person with necropsy photos and reports with histo.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I just can't see any possible way that sand is more difficult to pass than jagged and tangled pieces of mulch or bark. I would have lost at least two tortoises to mulch if I had not caught it and slowly teased the mulch pieces one by one from their cloaca. Large pieces of mulch or bark may be organic but they are probably no more digestible than sand during the typical transit time through the gut. So if substrate buildup is a concern just how much higher is the risk for sand than bark? Even the "sharpest" of sand is pretty smooth when its wet, clumped together, covered in mucous and passing through the gut. I can't imagine the sand is any more abrasive to the gut than sticks, leaves, stemmy hay, naturally consumed sand and rocks, cuttle bone or many other things these guys eat. I have a collection of photos of amazing things that tortoises have eaten and pooped out. My favorite recent one is a pencil. If they are healthy and an object fits in their mouth, odds are it will come out the other end.

If we are going to argue that some substrates are safe and some are not, I will say that cypress mulch is very dangerous and should be avoided. 1. I have gotten bags that had fire ants in them. 2. the pieces are frequently eaten by tortoises, I have seen it in two species now. 3. Cypress mulch does not actually contain cypress and much like topsoil you have no way of knowing what is in it.

Please share more more examples of substrate impaction from other sources besides threads on this forum. Without a necropsy report that includes histology of all major tissues in the body the data is incomplete though. Again, a gross necropsy with a gut full of something is NOT a definitive cause of death, it is likely only a symptom. I've posted necropsy photos full of sand with an unrelated cause of death. I can't be the only person with necropsy photos and reports with histo.

The reason I believe sand is more of an issue, is because it builds like a cement type consistency in the gut, it’s not ideal when they swallow jagged pieces of mulch(which is why I personally opt for orchid bark) it is just doesn’t appear to build up the same way, I’m not saying blockages aren’t possible, but we’d be literally talking about every single option known to man if that were the case, and they need to be housed on something that meets their needs in captivity.

How did your guy manage to get hold of a pencil?🥲

For what it’s worth I tend to push for orchid bark and coir, not mulch so much, I’m sorry you had a bad experience with ants but again that could’ve happened with any substrate😣

 

[dd33]

The reason I believe sand is more of an issue, is because it builds like a cement type consistency in the gut, it’s not ideal when they swallow jagged pieces of mulch(which is why I personally opt for orchid bark) it is just doesn’t appear to build up the same way, I’m not saying blockages aren’t possible, but we’d be literally talking about every single option known to man if that were the case, and they need to be housed on something that meets their needs in captivity.

How did your guy manage to get hold of a pencil?🥲

For what it’s worth I tend to push for orchid bark and coir, not mulch so much, I’m sorry you had a bad experience with ants but again that could’ve happened with any substrate😣

How and why does sand change into a cement like consistency in the gut?

 

[S2G]

The reason I believe sand is more of an issue, is because it builds like a cement type consistency in the gut, it’s not ideal when they swallow jagged pieces of mulch(which is why I personally opt for orchid bark) it is just doesn’t appear to build up the same way, I’m not saying blockages aren’t possible, but we’d be literally talking about every single option known to man if that were the case, and they need to be housed on something that meets their needs in captivity.

How did your guy manage to get hold of a pencil?🥲

For what it’s worth I tend to push for orchid bark and coir, not mulch so much, I’m sorry you had a bad experience with ants but again that could’ve happened with any substrate😣

Cant do coir no mo...

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

How and why does sand change into a cement like consistency in the gut?

Because it’s like micro gravel😣whereas I can’t see coir binding together as easily..

Cant do coir no mo...

why no mo coir?🥲

 

[mark1]

That is Hydrophobic you mention in YOUR post ^right up there^

i just looked and i can find no such thing as natural "hydrophobic" sand...... all i find is how to make it?

That is Hydrophobic you mention in YOUR post ^right up there^.

that is either play sand or paver sand from home depot?



The Chemistry of Hydrophobic Sand (Magic Sand)
"Hydrophobic sand, or magic sand, is toy made from sand that is coated a with a hydrophobic compound"

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

This could go on another 20 pages..🤣

 

[Tom]

One thing which I found interesting: Tom mentioned that tortoises in large outdoor pens are still vulnerable to sand impactions. While soils in SoCal are different, most of them are loams with more or less sand. What's the course of action here, if "decent size pen" is 100+ sq.ft.? Picking up sand grains? Covering everything with bark/mulch/coco coir? Planting grass carpet?

These people had added sand on purpose. It wasn't the normal back yard dirt we have here. I don't know how much sand or what type of sand or what percentage of the area was sandy. The vet told me they were trying to imitate their tortoises natural environment by adding sand to the enclosure.

 

[mark1]

No. How do you mean? What is grandiose about that statement? People used to raise babies on rabbit pellets and aspen shavings. Now they use substrate that stays damp and try to maintain some humidity. I lost count of how many languages my info was translated into. Chinese, both Mandarin and Cantonese, Spanish in Spain and Spanish in Mexico, French, German, Arabic...

there is no benefit to me responding........ as far as rabbit pellets and aspen shavings, i started acquiring tortoises in 1974, and i have never seen it done or heard of that..... possibly because of the type tortoises i had....... but i did know quite a few animal dealers with every type of turtle and tortoises there is.......

As for the rest of your post: No one is telling you that you have had sand impaction problems. Its not about you and your turtles. Though I do enjoy your pictures.

i'd have never thought that tortoises would be more sensitive to sandy soil than eastern box turtles............

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

These people had added sand on purpose. It wasn't the normal back yard dirt we have here. I don't know how much sand or what type of sand or what percentage of the area was sandy. The vet told me they were trying to imitate their tortoises natural environment by adding sand to the enclosure.

That's an important detail, thank you!

 

[Tom]

I just can't see any possible way that sand is more difficult to pass than jagged and tangled pieces of mulch or bark. I would have lost at least two tortoises to mulch if I had not caught it and slowly teased the mulch pieces one by one from their cloaca. Large pieces of mulch or bark may be organic but they are probably no more digestible than sand during the typical transit time through the gut. So if substrate buildup is a concern just how much higher is the risk for sand than bark? Even the "sharpest" of sand is pretty smooth when its wet, clumped together, covered in mucous and passing through the gut. I can't imagine the sand is any more abrasive to the gut than sticks, leaves, stemmy hay, naturally consumed sand and rocks, cuttle bone or many other things these guys eat. I have a collection of photos of amazing things that tortoises have eaten and pooped out. My favorite recent one is a pencil. If they are healthy and an object fits in their mouth, odds are it will come out the other end.

If we are going to argue that some substrates are safe and some are not, I will say that cypress mulch is very dangerous and should be avoided. 1. I have gotten bags that had fire ants in them. 2. the pieces are frequently eaten by tortoises, I have seen it in two species now. 3. Cypress mulch does not actually contain cypress and much like topsoil you have no way of knowing what is in it.

Please share more more examples of substrate impaction from other sources besides threads on this forum. Without a necropsy report that includes histology of all major tissues in the body the data is incomplete though. Again, a gross necropsy with a gut full of something is NOT a definitive cause of death, it is likely only a symptom. I've posted necropsy photos full of sand with an unrelated cause of death. I can't be the only person with necropsy photos and reports with histo.

I don't know why sand does this, but it does. Maybe weight, particle size, particle shape, particle composition? It collects in horse GI tracts too. We've got a souvenir "stone" from the stomach of my wife's horse. The horses are digesting and passing dry hay all day, but somehow the sand collects and stays as the other material passes by.

 

[Tom]

i'd have never thought that tortoises would be more sensitive to sandy soil than eastern box turtles............

Who shays they are, or are not? I've seen no one argue that case here.