Calcium! That deserves a little more research. First time that's came up in this discussion. Thanks Tom and thank your wife for me. Interesting stuff.View attachment 375371
Just adding to the conversation here. Forgive me if I get the details wrong. My microbiologist wife just explained it to me again, so here goes: This is a "gastric enterolith". It was surgically removed from her horse's stomach. The vet explained that the horses ingest some sand while eating their food off the ground, the sand clumps in the gut for whatever reason, and then the calcium from high calcium foods like alfalfa binds to the sand, forming calcium oxalate, which is what this "stone" is made of. I do not understand how this is possible, and why bale after bale of hay was able to pass on through the GI tract while this thing was in there growing larger the whole time, but there is it. Cost me $10,000 to learn to not let a horse eat off the ground, and to give them supplements that will make any accidentally ingested sand pass through the gut.
So when someone asks questions like: Why does the sand collect in the tortoise's gut when other things pass through, or how is sand worse than other substrates in this regard, or how does sand clump up and become like cement in the gut? I do not know the technical answers to those questions. I do know that there are processes taking place that we don't understand or even know about. I do know that some tortoises get impacted when sand is ingested, and some tortoises are able to pass some sand at least some of the time. I do know that adding sand to a tortoise enclosure could lead to impaction, though it doesn't lead to impaction 100% of the time. I do know that if there is no sand added, then there is no sand impaction 100% of the time.
Here is another possible factor: I have read that plants grown in areas with sandy soil and heavy annual rainfall, like the south eastern US, tend to have less calcium than plants grown in more fertile calcium rich soils like here in CA. In fact, so I've been told, some people add calcium to their soils in the south to add more calcium to the plants they are growing. I don't know if this is a factor in sand impaction or not, but the guys arguing that sand is not an issue are both in the eastern US with heavy rainfall and sandy soil, while the guy who has seen lots of sand impaction cases is in a desert basin with very low annual rainfall and calcium rich soil.
Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video
- Thread starter Fluffy
- Start date
Calcium! That deserves a little more research. First time that's came up in this discussion. Thanks Tom and thank your wife for me. Interesting stuff.
In one of the Garden State Tortoise videos, when he was in europe, the keepers were talking about adding calcium because the soil was very calcium deficient.
Finally some for all!
Anastasia 22
Active Member
Having been to Germany once, it rains there. A lot.
Not unlike our southeastern states. Hmmm.
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
Such kind of entheroliths weren't reported in tortoises (at least I haven't seen cases in papers). But this is probably how bladder stones form.
Low calcium in soil and therefore in plants can be a good reason why tortoises want to ingest substrate (pica, geophagy). And if someone mixed calcium sand in their soils - he, probably, made a "Tortoise Life" or "Calci-Sand" substrate in his yard. Calci-Sand is one of the substrates which *clumps* in the gastrointestinal tract.
And it looks like we are running out of substrates options: besides reports on cypress mulch, I've found this paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1557506313000621?via=ihub where cases of constipation with bark pieces are mentioned. I'm reading through referenced sources to find more details (they aren't easy to find, unfortunately).
For those interested in soil composition in CA, there is a decent resource: https://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx (it has data on composition, layers and depths and calcium contents).
"Just adding to the conversation here.", Tom, this isn't about your horses.........
Enterolithiasis
UC Davis Center for Equine Health
Enteroliths are mineral accumulations of magnesium-ammonium-phosphate (struvite) around a foreign object (a piece of metal, pebble, bailing twine, hair, rubber) that form round, triangular, or flat stones inside the bowel usually over the course of multiple years
Enteroliths form as a result of certain diets (for example, feeding diets high in magnesium and protein, such as alfalfa-rich diets), breed predisposition, and/or management practices. The rate of enterolith formation is variable and thought to be affected by gut pH, the availability of certain minerals, and gut motility.
Enteroliths can be managed by cutting down on alfalfa so that it makes up <50% of the diet, reducing or eliminating bran, adding apple cider vinegar to hay or grain daily, and increasing the grain ratio to decrease the pH level in the colon. Additional grazing, increasing the number of feedings per day and providing frequent, consistent exercise can help keep food material moving through the colon. Supplementing with psyllium, softening hard water, and avoiding mineral-rich feeds are additional management steps that can prevent the formation of enteroliths.
Enteroliths are mineral masses that form in the colon of a horse. They are also known as intestinal stones or calculi. Usually these stones build up in thin layers around a bit of foreign matter (a small piece of wood, wire, hair, or other material) that the horse has swallowed. Although mineral content varies, about 90% of a typical enterolith consists of struvite (a hydrous phosphate of magnesium and ammonia) and vivianite (a hydrous phosphate of iron). Combinations of sulfur, sodium, potassium, calcium, titanium, aluminum, and nickel make up the remaining 10%.
A study of 900 horses at the University of California-Davis showed that two-thirds of horses with enteroliths were fed diets with very high levels of alfalfa (lucerne) hay, while alfalfa made up only about 60% of the diet of unaffected horses. Some theories link phosphorus-rich wheat bran, water with a high content of dissolved minerals, or iron-laden feeds to enterolith formation.
Several management steps have been suggested to lessen the risk of enterolith development. One is decreasing the mineral overload by switching from alfalfa to grass hay and eliminating or cutting down on wheat bran in the horse’s diet. Another is encouraging gut movement by increasing exercise and grazing time for horses that have been kept in the stall. A third is preventing ingestion of foreign objects by cleaning up pastures and turnout paddocks.
Enterolithiasis
UC Davis Center for Equine Health
Enteroliths are mineral accumulations of magnesium-ammonium-phosphate (struvite) around a foreign object (a piece of metal, pebble, bailing twine, hair, rubber) that form round, triangular, or flat stones inside the bowel usually over the course of multiple years
Enteroliths form as a result of certain diets (for example, feeding diets high in magnesium and protein, such as alfalfa-rich diets), breed predisposition, and/or management practices. The rate of enterolith formation is variable and thought to be affected by gut pH, the availability of certain minerals, and gut motility.
Enteroliths can be managed by cutting down on alfalfa so that it makes up <50% of the diet, reducing or eliminating bran, adding apple cider vinegar to hay or grain daily, and increasing the grain ratio to decrease the pH level in the colon. Additional grazing, increasing the number of feedings per day and providing frequent, consistent exercise can help keep food material moving through the colon. Supplementing with psyllium, softening hard water, and avoiding mineral-rich feeds are additional management steps that can prevent the formation of enteroliths.
Enteroliths in Horses
Copyright 2024 Kentucky Equine ResearchEnteroliths are mineral masses that form in the colon of a horse. They are also known as intestinal stones or calculi. Usually these stones build up in thin layers around a bit of foreign matter (a small piece of wood, wire, hair, or other material) that the horse has swallowed. Although mineral content varies, about 90% of a typical enterolith consists of struvite (a hydrous phosphate of magnesium and ammonia) and vivianite (a hydrous phosphate of iron). Combinations of sulfur, sodium, potassium, calcium, titanium, aluminum, and nickel make up the remaining 10%.
A study of 900 horses at the University of California-Davis showed that two-thirds of horses with enteroliths were fed diets with very high levels of alfalfa (lucerne) hay, while alfalfa made up only about 60% of the diet of unaffected horses. Some theories link phosphorus-rich wheat bran, water with a high content of dissolved minerals, or iron-laden feeds to enterolith formation.
Several management steps have been suggested to lessen the risk of enterolith development. One is decreasing the mineral overload by switching from alfalfa to grass hay and eliminating or cutting down on wheat bran in the horse’s diet. Another is encouraging gut movement by increasing exercise and grazing time for horses that have been kept in the stall. A third is preventing ingestion of foreign objects by cleaning up pastures and turnout paddocks.
I have repeated over and over "I am not here to argue"
I am here to add info to the discussion, then allow others to make decisions based on that info as well as others info.
If you push it or want me to I'll make a YouTube video just for you and the other one that seems to be unable to comprehend. Warning: This will make the 2 of you look like idiots. I have not done this because this is NOT my intention or what I am here for .... BUT you are pretty close to this happening. I would again stress be careful what you "Think" you may be wrong!
To Late .....
Before you start trying to quote Science ya might want to learn first! Here is something to learn from ...
I don't want to argue (said that over and over) Gave ya info you can further exam and expand YOUR knowledge from (ya seem to not care) You are wrong @S2G & @mark1 but I'm starting to get the feeling this happens a lot in your own lifes
I commend you @Fluffy you asked a question and kept an open mind so you can learn, this character trait is not abundant in this thread.
BYE
Drop the mic .......
I don't want to argue (said that over and over) Gave ya info you can further exam and expand YOUR knowledge from (ya seem to not care) You are wrong @S2G & @mark1 but I'm starting to get the feeling this happens a lot in your own lifes
I commend you @Fluffy you asked a question and kept an open mind so you can learn, this character trait is not abundant in this thread.
BYE
Drop the mic .......
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2012
- Messages
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At the expense of wading to deep here:
Hydrophobicity or lack there of is a surface property. There are not two “types” of sand. The nature of the surface is not permanent and can change.
If you take sand and cook it or heat it in low humidity or for a prolonged time, you drive off any hydroxide (water) that is chemically bonded to the surface. This will make the surface hydrophobic and it will repel water. The same happens if you crush rock to make sand, the new surfaces that form often start out as moderately hydrophobic.
Once exposed to water, almost all minerals will create chemical bonds at the surface with water molecules. The surface now becomes hydrophilic and will stick to water. This may take some time but can be accelerated by changing pH, for example.
Surfaces can also be treated with chemicals to make them either hydrophobic or not.
I have no idea if this is relevant for tortoise substrates or impaction at all, but I tend to doubt it matters as much as (for example) the size, shape, or composition of the sand.
I am not sure if a horse getting sand colic a valid comparison to a tortoise but that is a pretty cool looking gastrolith.
Also, soils in Florida are far from calcium deficient. Our sand is ancient coral, calcium carbonate. We are very selenium deficient though.
I am not trying to make the point that sand is good or sand is safe. I just keep trying to point out that something else is likely majorly wrong with a tortoise that gets impacted. Like COVID and heart disease or diabetes, which one killed the person? You know that I am caring for a big group of tortoises that have a history of impaction episodes on bamboo leaves (aka GRASS!). My blood boils when one of them is pointed at and I am told, oh that one almost died once. We now know that all of those tortoises have TINC. My frustration is that there is a severe lack of knowledge and acknowledgement of tortoise diseases. The problems that they cause are too easily blamed on husbandry. Impaction, failure to thrive. I think we are going to look back in 20 years and talk about these things like we do keeping sulcatas in dry open top glass tanks filled with sand and hot rocks.
I hear ya. I hear you every time, and I don't disagree with the disease aspect that you bring up. Its very likely a factor in a lot of these cases.
I showed the horse thing not as a definitive answer to anything tortoise related, but as one plausible, perhaps possible, explanation as an answer to your questions, and to illustrate that there are very likely things going on that few people know anything about.
Right... Which is why I explained the point of the post in paragraph 2. It was shown as an example of biological processes taking place that most people have no knowledge of. Nowhere did I say that this is what is happening in our tortoises.
This stone is around 15 years old. We have x-rays or scans of it somewhere. In this case, it was formed around ingested sand, so said the vet team that removed it.
In the spirit of sharing amazing stomach contents, here is the pencil I mentioned earlier @Littleredfootbigredheart. This was sitting behind my ear when I was installing bat houses in the tortoise pasture. I realized it was gone but couldn't find it anywhere. About it week later someone pooped it out.
That's literally what I said and what we don't have. We have a WELL drained soil. It's crusty on top when the sun hits it & moist below. Those box turtles are on leaf little on top of well drained soil. The leaf litter doesn't repel water. It's just a little micro habitat they can seek out & it has critters they can eat.
Take your mic & go get some coffee...or go back to bed lol
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i probably just missed it being the "idiot" i am , but could you point out when they spoke about "hydrophobic" sand? thanks in advance
Quick question. Does anyone here recommend sand?
Littleredfootbigredheart
Well-Known Member
He’s not purposely dumping sand in with the horses though… ‘purpose’
is the topic of discussion no?
