Coconut Oil

[Alaskamike]

This "experiment" has limited value. We can learn nothing about the positive effects of coconut oil from this. Yes, your tortoises look good. But that may be due to your husbandry practices aside from the oil. The oil may be doing nothing at all.

You can cite facts about the properties of coconut oil all day, and even if all those facts suggest that oil should have a positive effect on tortoise shells, it is meaningless until it is demonstrated. There are too many variables and unknowns in tortoise care to link the keratin and uv light factoids posted in this thread to the health of the shells of your tortoises.

If you keep this up for another 19 years with similar results, we may be able to state that coconut oil will not harm tortoises. But that is very different from the claims you are attempting to make in this thread.

Given that you have 2 tortoises, it really seems like a wasted opportunity that you did not choose to oil one and not the other, to observe the differences in shell growth. That would have demonstrated something, albeit to a limited degree. Until 2 hatchlings from the same clutch are raised in the same conditions, with the only difference in husbandry practices being one shell is oiled and the other is not, we will have no reliable understanding on the effects of coconut oil on shell growth.

I think you make some valid points.

- It is not an experiment in scientific terms without strict protocol, an unbiased expectation, and a control group – preferably with a decent n. - dozens probably.

- It can take years to see results of shell growth and overall health of tortoises

- No amount of antidotal information can substitute for facts that be substantiated in a controlled experiment

But having conceded this, there are some things I think we can learn from the researched properties of coconut oil, as well as an understanding of how tortoise shells form and grow. I know I have learned allot from the exchanges here, and it prompted me to really study what is known of shell formation and the underlying biology of the tortoise.

There is also substantiated science behind the way artificial lights work, heat & infrared, and the wavelengths present. It is worth knowing and looking intently at this.

I agree that to make this a scientific study – even a basic amateur one – you would need to have a control group and a treatment group. Raise them as much as possible in the same environment, same food sources, light, etc., and then document their progress carefully. If I remember correctly this has been brought up and addressed as a flaw several times in this thread. The OP readily admits this is not what he is doing. Sometimes his enthusiasm for EVCO has brought criticism. At least he is trying something and I think it shows promise.

This whole thing reminds me a little bit of the high humid argument and husbandry practices that evolved in the hobby over the last 10 years or so. Even today with multiple successes there are still many who refute the idea, say it is unnatural, and claim it has both no scientific backing, or logical foundation. They still argue it is strictly a food, exercise, lack of sunlight issue. They point out it is antidotal, although the volume of babies raised this way who show no signs of pyramiding is growing steadily. Some say that the long term effects of a high humid environment may actually be causing internal damage to the tortoise we will not see for years.

I am not aware of anyone who has raised babies side by side, with all other things being as equal as possible, other that frequent soaks and high humidity long enough to demonstrate that the control group pyramids, and the ones in the high humid environment did not. If that study is out there I’d love to see it.

The information and growing evidence that good hydration and high humidity combine to keep shell growth smooth has come entirely from antidotal information and results over time from an initial hypothesis. It has come from breeders and hobbyists who despite their best care practices with food and environment were still seeing their tortoises pyramid. So they tried something else. And seeing progress and improvement continued and refined the practice. It is, as you noted, a long drawn out process. Not ideal, and not very ‘scientific’. And very antidotal. But still, it convinced me.

Regardless, progress is sometimes made this way. We hobbyists are not research scientists, but we do allot of amateur research into all the environmental components that can contribute to our pets health and well being. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we get it right, and sometimes we stumble onto something that really makes a difference.

 

[AMMG]

The high humid argument did not need to raise hatchlings side by side to prove its value. The control group was available in past experiences of raising hatchlings in low humidity.

There is no such historical control group here. Has anyone had pyramiding issues in lamp heated open table tops where high humidity was nevertheless established from day one? If anything, I see the opposite reading this forum.

I note the tortoises in this thread are hydrated very well. Thus, we cannot know if their shells are healthy due to the humidity or the oil.

Seems like many people are seeing the tortoises' smooth shells in this thread and concluding the oil is a causal factor. This is wrong.

 

[Alaskamike]

The high humid argument did not need to raise hatchlings side by side to prove its value. The control group was available in past experiences of raising hatchlings in low humidity.

There is no such historical control group here. Has anyone had pyramiding issues in lamp heated open table tops where high humidity was nevertheless established from day one? If anything, I see the opposite reading this forum.

I note the tortoises in this thread are hydrated very well. Thus, we cannot know if their shells are healthy due to the humidity or the oil.

Seems like many people are seeing the tortoises' smooth shells in this thread and concluding the oil is a causal factor. This is wrong.

You raise good points.
You are correct that there is no historical evidence as we find in the high humidity-hydration / dry raising experiences. But I would point out that the EVCO idea is new..... certainly not enough time to draw conclusions from experience. You are right we cannot know causal factors with the way this is being used. I know the OP has made appeals to others to experiment with this, but not many are.

OPEN TABLES
However, I am not sure anyone could create high humidity in an open table top - at least I know I can't. Both my air conditioning and heat reduce humidity in my home greatly. Even with a damp substrata, misting, etc., I could not achieve even 60% on a regular basis. I had to cover my tables with plexiglass to get that done. It can be argued that all we need to do is create the correct humidity, the right ecosystems and we would see smooth shell growth. This is demonstrated by many here. @Tom is the most vocal about this and certainly has raised 100'ds of torts / with and without the humidity as demonstrated the difference.. He should know. And there are multiple threads of people using these methods and having success.

So you can rightly argue that the use on an additional product like EVCO is pointless, especially since we do not know the efficacy, or potential side effects, and another method, using only water / humidity / closed chambers- has been shown effective. This seems to be the major point of most who critique EVCO use.

I am most probably in the minority, in that I am constantly curious and striving to create as healthy an environment as possible. Guess I'm never fully satisfied. If a new healthy plant becomes available I offer it to see if they will eat it, if an underground hide seems appropriate I build it. These are additions to an already healthy environment, not a panacea. And I do not see EVCO as a substitute for a solid proper heat distribution, good food, appropriate light, hydration, etc. That I believe would be irresponsible, and bad for our tortoises.

There is always a balance in nature. Shells need hydration, but also need to dry out at times. Sunlight is good, but too much is bad. Substitute lighting indoors for the sun, as well as basking lamps have drawbacks, and are frequently used improperly. Tortoises need basking and heat, but also a cool lace out of the sun and a dark place to rest and hide. They self regulate when the proper environment allow them to do so.

So.... long explanation with some random thought. I apologize. I know this is not very precise -maybe not even helpful , but I've said all of that to point out that the use of EVCO for problems captive tortoises, especially those raised indoors, MAY be a good addition. I am not totally convinced, but nor am I inclined to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I will say this much I am fairly sure of
- EVCO reduces desiccating effects of overhead heat lamps.
- It has enough anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, and anti-viral properties to be used as a preventative to shell rot, and mold proliferation on shells in high humid environments - like I experience with mine here in South Florida in the summer rainy season. May even help with this in enclosed high humid chambers where mold could become an issue.
- The unfortunate truth is that many people are raising tortoises indoors on tortoise tables or aquariums with open tops, low humidity , desiccating lamps, and pyramiding tortoises. While not a cure all, the application of coconut oil to the caprice is simple and not expensive Creating the right ecosystem on the other hand takes more effort , $, and time. As a interim help, EVCO could be recommended while pushing to get the right enclosed environment done.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion and logic. I am somewhat of a nutritionist / health nut and I discuss health issues often with people. If people ask, I Recommend diet changes and exercise. Some make changes, some do not. I know enough about human nature to suggest that even if a person does not have the willpower or desire to eat a healthy balanced meal, they at least can take a high quality vitamin / mineral supplement to help their body metabolize food better and make up a bit for the lacks in diet. It is not an all or nothing choice, and this is often what we find i tortoise care.

Some people will go to great lengths to create the optimum environment for the tortoise - some will give it a lick and a promise and hope for the best, some don't give a damn. It is the way it is.

 

[glitch4200]

The high humid argument did not need to raise hatchlings side by side to prove its value. The control group was available in past experiences of raising hatchlings in low humidity.

There is no such historical control group here. Has anyone had pyramiding issues in lamp heated open table tops where high humidity was nevertheless established from day one? If anything, I see the opposite reading this forum.

I note the tortoises in this thread are hydrated very well. Thus, we cannot know if their shells are healthy due to the humidity or the oil.

Seems like many people are seeing the tortoises' smooth shells in this thread and concluding the oil is a causal factor. This is wrong.

Their is a lot to cover... I would like to point out my habitat is not kept at high humidity.. It I open table top. I struggle to maintain 50 percent.. Majority of the time my humidity is below 40 percent. Despite me spraying and soaking the habitat down each day. By days end I am back at 30 percent humidity or less. I often see humidity levels creep close to 20 percent.

I try to keep the substrate moist and humid hides. But in reality I don't do that we'll at keeping the humidity up despite every day effort. I soak my tortoises almost every single day, as I fear they don't get enough humidity sustained like they should (50% or higher sustained) while in open table top.. So technically.. They have been raised in a low humid environment.. As high humidity is sustained (my opinion) at 60 percent or more. And I do not provide that type of environment.. Despite all the positive information on high humid environment, I do not have am enclosed habitats making it almost impossible to sustain that type of humidity.

I know it bugs many of you that I did not keep one tortoise oiled and one tortoise not oiled. That I have no control group, no set procedure, few controlled variables etc. I see why many of you think this is poorly designed experiment, and it is. I am working towards my higher education degree in research psychology and it bugs me too I don't have a control, set protocol, defined variables, and highly detailed data sheets. It really does.. Becuae I want this to be accepted for what it is.. And it isn't straight forward science.. Its botched, cut up from the depths of my mind and tried to be explained the best way I know how... It's not perfect but it's more then majority of people do for their reptiles and animals they own.

I have always promoted high humid, hydrating environments. I have never said screw all other husndsdry ideas and just apply coconut oil. I have always stuck up for this oil as an added protection towards artificial lighting for indoor kept tortoises. Not as an answer to this issue. As much as people push temperature gradients and proper lighting schemes. No one has told me the proper lighting scheme, all I have heard is distributed light using multiple lighting sources to reach proper temp gradients.

I want to know what lights in what order and position with what bulbs will give me smooth happy health tortoise. I keep hearing the lame superficial answer. I want to know from sure without doubt what bulbs are the best, in what order using what lamps holders, at what distance, spread over what time frame. All I hear is oh.. 'Spread the light and provide temp gradients.'

No mention of the best bulbs that minimize the effects I have so blatantly stated multiple times through out the thread or the distance needed to stop the detrimental effects that I have oh so described. It's the same superficial answers.. And to the tortoise keepers that have raised indoor smooth grown bone dense tortoises please share your secret lighting scheme so the masses of tortoises keepers can be on the level as well.

Becuae as far as I see it, right now, no one person in this entire forum has come up with a fool proof indoor lighting scheme that will create super healthy smooth tortoises without major adjustments constantly to the habitat... Where is this magical lighting scheme that renders coconut oil useless? Please.. I would love to know. And would immediately begin pushing such lighting scheme set ups to keepers all over.. Because despite people saying their are such lighting schemes, I have yet to be explained what it is..

 

[Tom]

I want to know what lights in what order and position with what bulbs will give me smooth happy health tortoise. I keep hearing the lame superficial answer. I want to know from sure without doubt what bulbs are the best, in what order using what lamps holders, at what distance, spread over what time frame. All I hear is oh.. 'Spread the light and provide temp gradients.'

No mention of the best bulbs that minimize the effects I have so blatantly stated multiple times through out the thread or the distance needed to stop the detrimental effects that I have oh so described. It's the same superficial answers.. And to the tortoise keepers that have raised indoor smooth grown bone dense tortoises please share your secret lighting scheme so the masses of tortoises keepers can be on the level as well.

Becuae as far as I see it, right now, no one person in this entire forum has come up with a fool proof indoor lighting scheme that will create super healthy smooth tortoises without major adjustments constantly to the habitat... Where is this magical lighting scheme that renders coconut oil useless? Please.. I would love to know. And would immediately begin pushing such lighting scheme set ups to keepers all over.. Because despite people saying their are such lighting schemes, I have yet to be explained what it is..

There is no one size-fits-all perfect answer for this. Every enclosure, home and situation is different. Every tortoise enclosure is a custom job. There are now a bevy of good products to use to accomplish the goals of correct parameters for any given species and size tortoise. Everyone must take what is available and adapt it, modify it and make it work for THEIR individual situation.

"Fool proof"? Sorry. Doesn't exist. Fools will always find a way to mess things up.

I have had good results using:
1. 65 watt regular flood bulbs for a basking area. Height of the bulb should be determined in each enclosure by the thermometer probe under the bulb or the infrared thermometer readings.
2. Regular 5000-6500 K florescent light tubes for illumination.
3. Arcadia 12% HO tubes for UV. Mounted approximately 20" high and on a timer for 4-5 hours a day, mid day. Again, mounting height should be determined by a UV meter in each individual enclosure.
4. CHEs set on thermostats to maintain ambient.

All of the above are used in closed chambers.

Here is this years growth experiment. It might be of interest to you:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/


Question: You believe the humid hydrated methods to be good and even go so far as to promote them, so why are your young tortoises in an open topped table with humidity as low as 20%?

 

[Tom]

OPEN TABLES
However, I am not sure anyone could create high humidity in an open table top - at least I know I can't. Both my air conditioning and heat reduce humidity in my home greatly. Even with a damp substrata, misting, etc., I could not achieve even 60% on a regular basis. I had to cover my tables with plexiglass to get that done. It can be argued that all we need to do is create the correct humidity, the right ecosystems and we would see smooth shell growth. This is demonstrated by many here. @Tom is the most vocal about this and certainly has raised 100'ds of torts / with and without the humidity as demonstrated the difference.. He should know. And there are multiple threads of people using these methods and having success.

Open tables are a great easy way to house tortoises and they work very well IF the air in the room is the correct temperature and humidity for the species being cared for. If the air in the room is not of the correct temperature and humidity for the individual tortoise being cared for, an open table makes maintaining the correct conditions very difficult, if not impossible.

 

[Alaskamike]

So…..

In a way, Glitch is doing an experiment, although of course, no control group – in that he is raising these 2 torts in an open table top / artificial lamps with average household humidity. The proof is “in the pudding” – as they say -. If he continues to do this, and his torts do not pyramid as others in this kind of environment would be expected to, would that show folks anything at all? I wonder.

I’m not sure, but it would be an indicator if nothing else. A correlation at least.

Would love to see someone do this with say – 10 leopard or sulcata babies, raised in same indoor enclosure, same care , with 1/2 getting the EVCO treatment. Now then we could have some evidence in a few years since they grow so fast.

It is hard for anyone who loves tortoises to subject any to possible damage and long term health problems from improper care. But until this is done, we will continue to speculate and debate this as antidotal.

 

[Anyfoot]

Hi all. I see this debate is still on the go. Without me going back through the thread trying to find if you mentioned it or not. Does coconutting your tort make the tort hydrated as well as to dissapate the heat spots more evenly?

 

[Anyfoot]

Hi all. I see this debate is still on the go. Without me going back through the thread trying to find if you mentioned it or not. Does coconutting your tort make the tort hydrated as well as to dissapate the heat spots more evenly?

Im thinking the fact you spray and bathe your torts most days is overiding any true outcome of your coconut experiment. You are in effect keeping them humid as well as using coconut oil, so we will never know if they are growing smooth because of the oil or the constant spray/bathing. The only way to prove this is to only put oil on one tort. Can you do this? The fact is that some of the more experienced tort keepers on here are growing smooth torts without coconutting them.
BTW. I'm glad you did this experiment because it highlighted the impact of hot spots to me. Most probably already new. Anyway my way to combat hot spots will be to create a smoother heat source. One way is to use a closed chamber with more of an ambient temp rather than a harsh hot area, and don't have the heat source too close to the torts. This said I have redfoots and i dont intend to have a specific basking area, just a heat gradient.

 

[Alaskamike]

@Anyfoot IMO bathing and spraying your torts is not a substitute for high humidity under lamps. It does not keep them humid, or the shell properly hydrated, as the moisture is wicked away rapidly if room humidity is 20-40%. This is easy to demonstrate. Spray down your table and torts and then an hour later put a humidity gauge in there at ground level. You'll see what I mean.

There is a difference in raising them with constant humid air at say *80%

To having an open table top indoors and making sure they have plenty of water and spraying them or their enclosure down several times a day.

I know some with open table tops do this and seem to think it is a substitute - does the same thing but I don't believe so.

 

[Anyfoot]

@Anyfoot IMO bathing and spraying your torts is not a substitute for high humidity under lamps. It does not keep them humid, or the shell properly hydrated, as the moisture is wicked away rapidly if room humidity is 20-40%. This is easy to demonstrate. Spray down your table and torts and then an hour later put a humidity gauge in there at ground level. You'll see what I mean.

There is a difference in raising them with constant humid air at say *80%

To having an open table top indoors and making sure they have plenty of water and spraying them or their enclosure down several times a day.

I know some with open table tops do this and seem to think it is a substitute - does the same thing but I don't believe so.

I totally agree with you Mike 100%. When I asked if coconut oil also hydrates the tort I was referring too, does it replace humidity. If this tort is in a very low humidity enclosure but still is growing smoothly with the aid of coconut oil it suggests that torts don't need humidity, just coconut oil. So in IMO this tort is getting some sort of humidity. How accurately the humidity level is being read, I don't know. But if it is as low as 20% this means coconut oil is magic. I don't understand why a tort can be in an apparently dry environment with just coconut oil on it and grow smooth. Or is the constant bathing and spraying helping it grow smooth? Cheers.

 

[leigti]

If the tortoise is getting very frequent soaks and sprays then humidity in the enclosure it's self wouldn't be necessary. But that is a lot of high maintenance that some of us don't have time to do.

 

[Anyfoot]

If the tortoise is getting very frequent soaks and sprays then humidity in the enclosure it's self wouldn't be necessary. But that is a lot of high maintenance that some of us don't have time to do.

Hi there.
So do you agree if that is the case. We won't know if the coconut oil is helping these torts growing smoothly because the experiment is being clouded.

 

[Anyfoot]

Could it be that the tort is getting hydrated through bathing, and the oil is slowing the dehydration process down from within the tort?
If so, is that a good or bad thing not letting it dry out from with?
Just throwing thoughts in the pot and being open minded about this.

 

[Randi]

I went out today and bought some to try. I wouldn't use it very often. Is this ok to use? It is very hard to find.

 

[Alaskamike]

I totally agree with you Mike 100%. When I asked if coconut oil also hydrates the tort I was referring too, does it replace humidity. If this tort is in a very low humidity enclosure but still is growing smoothly with the aid of coconut oil it suggests that torts don't need humidity, just coconut oil. So in IMO this tort is getting some sort of humidity. How accurately the humidity level is being read, I don't know. But if it is as low as 20% this means coconut oil is magic. I don't understand why a tort can be in an apparently dry environment with just coconut oil on it and grow smooth. Or is the constant bathing and spraying helping it grow smooth? Cheers.

I think there is a clarification that could be made. And even as I say this , am aware others can disagree or chime in here and make more sense than I do.

As I study how the alpha and beta keratin form it is apparent to me that moisture in the shell and overall hydration of the tortoise is vitally important - are linked together. If this is not present there is an over proliferation of beta keratin deposits in an attempt to provide more insulation and protection from moisture loss. This is then visually seen in a thickening of the caprice and pyramiding scutes as they
push upward since the deposited of keratin are outstripping the growth of the shell outward. MBD can result.

keratin is hydrated in several ways. The Alpha keratin ( new live underlying growth ) is hydrated by the water in the tortoise system. It is internal. This internal hydration also affects the beta keratin ( the outer layers - like fingernails). If the tortoise is dehydrated due to lack of water ( internal ) so is the keratin.

What then could the EVCO be doing to help ? Well , I believe it creates a barrier to moisture loss through the exterior of the shell. This keeps it more playable and as new layers of growth are added they deposited in a smooth even basis.

The oil itself does not hydrate. But it does slow down dehydration.

So does a very humid environment. One could argue they may be doing the same thing.

Maybe .... and I am tentative on the , but maybe that is why it would work.

 

[leigti]

I think there is a clarification that could be made. And even as I say this , am aware others can disagree or chime in here and make more sense than I do.

As I study how the alpha and beta keratin form it is apparent to me that moisture in the shell and overall hydration of the tortoise is vitally important - are linked together. If this is not present there is an over proliferation of beta keratin deposits in an attempt to provide more insulation and protection from moisture loss. This is then visually seen in a thickening of the caprice and pyramiding scutes as they
push upward since the deposited of keratin are outstripping the growth of the shell outward. MBD can result.

keratin is hydrated in several ways. The Alpha keratin ( new live underlying growth ) is hydrated by the water in the tortoise system. It is internal. This internal hydration also affects the beta keratin ( the outer layers - like fingernails). If the tortoise is dehydrated due to lack of water ( internal ) so is the keratin.

What then could the EVCO be doing to help ? Well , I believe it creates a barrier to moisture loss through the exterior of the shell. This keeps it more playable and as new layers of growth are added they deposited in a smooth even basis.

The oil itself does not hydrate. But it does slow down dehydration.

So does a very humid environment. One could argue they may be doing the same thing.

Maybe .... and I am tentative on the , but maybe that is why it would work.

I really don't know much about the different kinds of Charitan. When I start reading into it too much I get flashbacks of microbiology :-( having said that I do respect the scientific method and glitch realizes that this is not a purely scientific experiment. No control group etc. so a lot of the information we get we are just going to have to make assumptions about, educated guesses at best. Anecdotal information is not necessarily bad and should not be ignored.
Because I haven't read the whole thread I am going to make some guesses here. I am going to guess that because the lights are close to the tortoise and it is an open topped table and the substrate can only be so moist in these conditions, my guess would be that the oil does slow down dehydration in the shell by forming a barrier between the hot lights and the tortoise. Howellwood using the oil affect the overall hydration levels of the inside of the tortoise?

 

[leigti]

I totally agree with you Mike 100%. When I asked if coconut oil also hydrates the tort I was referring too, does it replace humidity. If this tort is in a very low humidity enclosure but still is growing smoothly with the aid of coconut oil it suggests that torts don't need humidity, just coconut oil. So in IMO this tort is getting some sort of humidity. How accurately the humidity level is being read, I don't know. But if it is as low as 20% this means coconut oil is magic. I don't understand why a tort can be in an apparently dry environment with just coconut oil on it and grow smooth. Or is the constant bathing and spraying helping it grow smooth? Cheers.

I don't think coconut oil is a replacement for humidity. I think the oil is working on the shell and possibly the skin. But that's only skin deep so to speak. If the tortoise does not have enough water and humidity for its insides then who cares what the shelf looks like.

 

[leigti]

OK, I went back and read a few pages. Glitch, I know you are very interested in the lighting aspect but it seems like you are not paying much attention to other aspects. You say you agree that the Hewwood method is effective but you don't do it. And your lights seem extremely close to your tortoises, at least that's what it looks like in the pictures. You said you don't plan on getting your tortoises outside for natural sunlight. Your enclosure seem a little small. It seems you are looking for a lighting system that along with the use of coconut oil, will make up for Bad husbandry in other areas. You say you want a lighting system that is foolproof. You are almost hostile towards suggestions to use different fixtures or different types and spacing of bulbs to spread out the UV and the heat over a wider area. You don't like the idea of a temperature gradient for adult tortoises. I stand by my previous statement, I feel you are creating the problems that you were trying to solve. You are rejecting what is basically considered proper husbandry and trying to find a quick fix all. Have you even considered the needs of different species of tortoises?
When this thread started I thought you might be onto something. Maybe you were but now I'm not sure what direction you're going.

 

[glitch4200]

I think there is a clarification that could be made. And even as I say this , am aware others can disagree or chime in here and make more sense than I do.

As I study how the alpha and beta keratin form it is apparent to me that moisture in the shell and overall hydration of the tortoise is vitally important - are linked together. If this is not present there is an over proliferation of beta keratin deposits in an attempt to provide more insulation and protection from moisture loss. This is then visually seen in a thickening of the caprice and pyramiding scutes as they
push upward since the deposited of keratin are outstripping the growth of the shell outward. MBD can result.

keratin is hydrated in several ways. The Alpha keratin ( new live underlying growth ) is hydrated by the water in the tortoise system. It is internal. This internal hydration also affects the beta keratin ( the outer layers - like fingernails). If the tortoise is dehydrated due to lack of water ( internal ) so is the keratin.

What then could the EVCO be doing to help ? Well , I believe it creates a barrier to moisture loss through the exterior of the shell. This keeps it more playable and as new layers of growth are added they deposited in a smooth even basis.

The oil itself does not hydrate. But it does slow down dehydration.

So does a very humid environment. One could argue they may be doing the same thing.

Maybe .... and I am tentative on the , but maybe that is why it would work.

This is where i am going to interject and propose a theory.

The 2 systems of a tortoise have internal hydration and external hydration. Water for the internal needs are taken by drinking water and breathing in humid air to aid in hydration of lungs organs. Then their is water for the proteins of the shell for proper function equalized through relative humidity and moist microclimates (burrowing into moist substrate = shell hydration).

I very much believe that one plays on the other but their is a distinct difference in internal hydration and external hydration. Internal hydration will allow the blood to be rich with much needed moisture to allow functioning of internal needs. External hydration will focus strictly on the bonds that hold together the matrix of the alpha keratin. Hydrogen bonds allow the alpha keratin matrix to function correctly. The bonds that hold the structural alpha keratin together are hydrogen. And hydrogen is the first bond broken when exposed to artificial lamps and its "unfiltered" infrared. This system is going to be seperate from the internal system.. As we break bonds of hydrogen in the keratin the proliferation of beta keratin to protect that soft matrix of alpha keratin is going to be pronounced.

Coconut oil does create a barrier. But it also hydrates as well, their are research articles on the effects of coconut oil in human skin which is pretty similar to the basic building blocks of the tortoises shell and skin. They argue that coconut oil deeply moisturizes and protects againsnt heat (hair drier & curling iron) by biochemically binding to the keratin and acting as a barrier and deep keratin moisturizer. I have all the reaseach articles i have used , on my facebook group. I will try and post it all here for you. Their is moisture in the oil. Water. Low levels of water. It is possible that the biochemical reaction of the keratin allows the hydrogen to be replaced through the oil. (guess) It is also not out of the realm of possibility that coconut oil allows keratin to be repaired at a cellular level as i stated replacing the hydrogen could rebuild the functioning of abused keratin.

I wont say that coconut oil replaces humidity. But i do think it provides its own enviornement for functioning. But it is not a replacement.

Once the top layers of keratin have been dehydrated the main internal hydration system will try and supplement the needed moisture by stealing moisture internally to replace to the external hydration lost. So if we had 2 systems of hydration being assulted ... lack of internal and lack of external. You have very easily explained dehydration . The skin is very effected by this too. Being run on sun power. The suns biosynthesis occures in the skin and if the skin is dehydrated the skin wont be able to function and synthesis the micronutrients present. So again the internal hydration must pcik up the slack for external hydration. This puts lots of stress on a tortoise that is both externally dehydrated and internally dehydrated. And suspectfully lead to many dehydration pronounced issues during its life.

I think you all need to seperate the body from the shell and think of them seperately. Even if they are connected a lack of one will create a deficiency in another. As the scale is trying to balance itself.