Leopard issues?

[kywilli2063]

Hi all.

I have 2 baby, well a bit more than baby, the one in question is almost 70 grams and the other is almost 60, south african leopards and I'm having a bit of a potential issue with them.

Now I know in the past my questions on this forum have gone unanswered, or are simply answered with the people who cry vet, but as with humans, we can treat things at home....information just needs to be shared.
After wasting the money on a vet last time and still having all 3 of my babies die after she claimed they just needed some eye drops, I'm remiss to do anything like that again.

Anywho. I've noticed in the last couple weeks both these guys are not opening their eyes as quickly when I grab them and it's slightly concerning. Even in a soak the one will go back to having his eyes closed. They're in with 3 sulcatas of similar size and the sulcatas are all chipper and open their eyes immediately, one even seems curious a lot of the time.

So the question is do you guys know of something microbe wise that could be effecting my leopards and not my sullys? I have panacur and metronidazole, and am very capable of making a preparation of either to use with them. I tend to think the metro would be more appropriate, but if there are some worms that would effect one and not the other I'm open to that course too.

Both still eat fine and thus far poop fine, just aren't as active. I should also note. I got the guy I'm worried about from that tortoise town swindler....I had a baby die from him in like 2 weeks (also SA leopard) and he refused to do anything, I had even noted to him that to my knowledge this wasn't how it should act upon receipt, and he claimed that laying around sleeping all day is "normal" for them. The other 3 I have came from Arizona Tortoise Compound and are much better it seems, and were very much better priced.

 

[cmacusa3]

What's your temps, what's the set up? There are a lot of factors that come into play and it's also concerning you've lost several in the past. Have you posted any enclosure pictures? Did you quarantine any of these animals before mixing them together? I'm going to tell you it's a bad idea to house these species together, if one is sick they could make all of them sick

I've look at some old posts, you lost several torts this year, Sulcata and Leopards. I think it maybe a enclosure issue.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Don't put tort pairs together ! And don't put different types of torts together . And read care sheets .

 

[Tom]

You are buying babies from sources that don't start them properly, then you are mixing species without quarantine. I can't give any definitive answer, but I have a pretty good idea what is going on.

How are you housing them? Indoors or out? What is your over night low temp? How often are you soaking? Are you using any UV bulbs? Coil types? What is the ambient humidity in your enclosure?

In cases like these there is seldom anything a vet can do, and treating the symptoms without addressing the cause is a sign of ignorance in my experience. Treating your tortoises with medicines without diagnosing the issue would also be a mistake in my opinion. No one on this forum, with the possible exemption of or two tortoise vet members, is qualified to give you dosage amounts or schedules. And I doubt any vet will prescribe medicines without some diagnostic testing and at least an office visit. Personally, I don't think a vet will be any help in this situation.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Can you photograph your lighting and housing and describe to us your care regimen?
I'm sure an explanation will be found. If it hasn't already been mentioned.

 

[Yvonne G]

The only thing I know to do is make a separate enclosure for each species. I know, I know...it's like closing the barn door after the horses have escaped, but that's what I would do. Then I'd set up a 10 gallon aquarium, now identified as a 'hospital tank' and set the temperature in the tank at 85F degrees - no gradient, 85F all over the whole tank. You can use substrate or you can use paper towels, doesn't matter in the hospital tank, whichever makes it easier for you to tend to. A hiding place is a must, and if your babies don't share, then two hiding places. In fact it might even be a better idea to set up two hospital tanks and only have one baby per tank.

Cover that tank to keep the cool house air out and the warm, moist air in. A UVB light is crucial. You can use a fluorescent tube along with a CHE, or you can use a mercury vapor bulb, but sick babies need the UVB.

Since he's going to be in a small tank, he'll need shade to get away from the harsh light.

Soak these babies daily for about 15 minutes in warm water. If you suspect an upper respiratory infection, you can add a bit of Tetracycline to the soaking water. But don't use it if there is no infection.

It would really help us be able to help you if we could see your set up.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi all.



Now I know in the past my questions on this forum have gone unanswered, or are simply answered with the people who cry vet, but as with humans, we can treat things at home....information just needs to be shared.

I took offense at this statement because I'm pretty careful to pay attention to all posts and make sure someone has answered each question. If no one has, then I do. So I went back and read each thread you started. You received answers to your questions on each and every thread. Rather than "...gone unanswered..." I think what happened is you didn't get/like the answers you wanted.

My first reaction after reading this thread is that 1, you've mixed species, and 2, there's got to be something wrong with your husbandry. I'd really like to help you save these babies. Can we see pictures of the habitat where they live, including the lights and heat?

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

I took offense at this statement because I'm pretty careful to pay attention to all posts and make sure someone has answered each question. If no one has, then I do. So I went back and read each thread you started. You received answers to your questions on each and every thread. Rather than "...gone unanswered..." I think what happened is you didn't get the answers you wanted.

My first reaction after reading this thread is that 1, you've mixed species, and 2, there's got to be something wrong with your husbandry. I'd really like to help you save these babies. Can we see pictures of the habitat where they live, including the lights and heat?

Thank you Yvonne G you confirmed my thoughts !

 

[Jodie]

I would absolutely follow Yvonnes hospital tank suggestion. Best wishes.

 

[cmacusa3]

Thank you Yvonne G you confirmed my thoughts !

Mine too!!

 

[kywilli2063]

What is that.....six of you replied and absolutely no treatment guidance whatsoever? Are you flipping kidding me? This is the only tortoise forum I'm aware of and NO ONE knows how to treat infections??? That simply can't be true.

I've gone over and over with you guys the stats and all that bs. I do everything perfectly to the t as much as is humanly possible. Although in the low side of my enclosure it's pretty impossible to keep the temp higher than 75-80. I have radiant heat panels and they simply won't maintain anything more than 5-10 degrees higher than the room. And yes, I've been over it with the manufacturer and his claim, up and down, is that they're functioning properly.

Under the big light is hot....probably 110-120. I've also asked in the past how the hell any of you supposedly have a basking temp of only 100 and then maintain a decent temp in the rest of the enclosure but no one answered that either.

There's multiple hides although none of them use them consistently....they all seem to rather stuff themselves in the back corner where it's about 90.

I of course don't use the coil bulbs.....they're soaked every day.....etc, etc, just like everyone says.

I refuse to believe that you can't house them together and if that's the only culprit am fine with some survival of the fittest. After past experience I didn't expect to end up with this many that are seemingly healthy anyway.

Also the sully's are OBVIOUSLY unaffected, so why separate them? The two leo's either have the same thing or are just acting the same way if nothing is wrong.

 

[kywilli2063]

Oh also, just in case, all lights were replaced when I got the new ones.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

What is that.....six of you replied and absolutely no treatment guidance whatsoever? Are you flipping kidding me? This is the only tortoise forum I'm aware of and NO ONE knows how to treat infections??? That simply can't be true.

I've gone over and over with you guys the stats and all that bs. I do everything perfectly to the t as much as is humanly possible. Although in the low side of my enclosure it's pretty impossible to keep the temp higher than 75-80. I have radiant heat panels and they simply won't maintain anything more than 5-10 degrees higher than the room. And yes, I've been over it with the manufacturer and his claim, up and down, is that they're functioning properly.

Under the big light is hot....probably 110-120. I've also asked in the past how the hell any of you supposedly have a basking temp of only 100 and then maintain a decent temp in the rest of the enclosure but no one answered that either.

There's multiple hides although none of them use them consistently....they all seem to rather stuff themselves in the back corner where it's about 90.

I of course don't use the coil bulbs.....they're soaked every day.....etc, etc, just like everyone says.

I refuse to believe that you can't house them together and if that's the only culprit am fine with some survival of the fittest. After past experience I didn't expect to end up with this many that are seemingly healthy anyway.

Also the sully's are OBVIOUSLY unaffected, so why separate them? The two leo's either have the same thing or are just acting the same way if nothing is wrong.

With your medical degree why listen to what any of us tell you ? I have 16 years with leopards and 23 of them ! But the problem is you refuse to listen to the nice people here . Have a great day !

 

[Jodie]

Unbelievable.

 

[cmacusa3]

What is that.....six of you replied and absolutely no treatment guidance whatsoever? Are you flipping kidding me? This is the only tortoise forum I'm aware of and NO ONE knows how to treat infections??? That simply can't be true.

I've gone over and over with you guys the stats and all that bs. I do everything perfectly to the t as much as is humanly possible. Although in the low side of my enclosure it's pretty impossible to keep the temp higher than 75-80. I have radiant heat panels and they simply won't maintain anything more than 5-10 degrees higher than the room. And yes, I've been over it with the manufacturer and his claim, up and down, is that they're functioning properly.

Under the big light is hot....probably 110-120. I've also asked in the past how the hell any of you supposedly have a basking temp of only 100 and then maintain a decent temp in the rest of the enclosure but no one answered that either.

There's multiple hides although none of them use them consistently....they all seem to rather stuff themselves in the back corner where it's about 90.

I of course don't use the coil bulbs.....they're soaked every day.....etc, etc, just like everyone says.

I refuse to believe that you can't house them together and if that's the only culprit am fine with some survival of the fittest. After past experience I didn't expect to end up with this many that are seemingly healthy anyway.

Also the sully's are OBVIOUSLY unaffected, so why separate them? The two leo's either have the same thing or are just acting the same way if nothing is wrong.

1. Maybe the Sulcata's have something their immune system can handle but pass it off to the leopards that can't

2. Why would you treat an infection without truly knowing if that's the issue.

3. If you have it below 80 but have high humidity all of them are at risk even the Sulcata's

4. How big is the enclosure? Have you tried CHE's on thermostats? I have 4 different enclosures and all
Maintain no less than 80

5. Are you still using that set up from back in May when you had the same heating issues, and talked about how pathetic the heat panels were?

We want to help and not watch more of your torts die but it seems as though this is the same situation you dealt with back then. You can refuse to believe what you want and "go with the survival of the fittest.

Tell you what, I will pay for the shipping and you can send these 2 leopards to me, I would rather try to save them than go with the it's just attrition and that's how it goes.

 

[leigti]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
That might also be the definition of a few other things that's going on here. And extremely quick scan and just what little I know about the people who have given you advice so far, there's nearly 100 years of combined advice. And thousands of tortoises in their care. So what the hell are you confused about? Swallow your pride, actually do what people are suggesting and give the tortoises a chance. You're going to make them so sick, or their situation is going to make them so sick, that no matter what you do soon enough nothing will work. Then will come back here and complain that nobody gave you the right advice.

 

[Neal]

Any update on your tortoises?

 

[kywilli2063]

There is no issue with my care except PERHAPS that they have a little colder side of the enclosure that I can't do a damn thing about regardless, there's no more roof space for any more ****. They never go in that side anyway so it's not really a concern.
I did not make this thread to examine in exhaustive detail AGAIN, my temps and lights and all the stuff that I've done before.
Unless leopards need drastically different conditions, which I know they don't. The leos have a WORM OR CONTAGION that the sully's are not susceptible to.

Hence my question as to which is more likely so I know what to attempt to treat with.

 

[kywilli2063]

Yes. I'm sure the tortoise town moron didn't do things exactly right with the way he treated me after his baby died within 2 weeks....but I paid 400 for this guy, he was supposed to be a good bet. And the other leopard from ATC (which has been perfect thus far) is showing similar symptoms. I just want an idea as to the likely culprit so I can try to treat before they die. Could be too late now since I couldn't get anyone to address it whatsoever before my last work set, but we'll see.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

You need to get your temperatures sorted. 120F is too warm for a basking spot and 75F is too cool of a low, especially for tortoises showing symptoms of illness. Getting the temperatures correct can be tricky in large enclosures, especially if they are open to a room. I know you are hesitant to discuss your enclosure, but that is something people here can help you with if you are willing to provide some photos and more details about the space they are housed in.

I use radiant heat panels and they work for my purposes, but many members can't get their enclosures warm enough with them because they are in too cold a room or their enclosure isn't well insulated. CHEs on thermostats can help bring your temperatures up and it sounds like you'll need to add one or two.

Is your basking spot also your UVB source? You will need to raise it up higher or replace the bulb with a lower wattage source. Your tortoises aren't able to safely bask under it as it is now. How high is it from the substrate right now?