Except tortoises do live in the wild on sand. People are not born smoking. I get what you're saying but....
Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video
- Thread starter Fluffy
- Start date
Our tortoises are not living in the wild.
Tom, you do realize that chris said he amended the substrate with sand, not use sand as a substrate? not sure why he does that? but i did amended the soil where my box turtles hibernate when i first built the pen, to help drainage.....over the years of all the leaves breaking down, the soil is now imo perfect for them to hibernate in....... i also amended the soil in a large section of the wood turtles pen with a lot of sand, so they have a spot to lay their eggs..... i never used play sand, i used the sand for putting under pavers, it's very different than play sand........
any x-rays of intestinal obstructions i've actually seen were rocks
any x-rays of intestinal obstructions i've actually seen were rocks
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
One thing I am interested in, what is the difference between clumping an non clumping sand? I remember Chris specifically recommending non clumping sand, doesn't all sand clump at least a little bit?
Exactly! That's my point. It appears we're not providing something that they have naturally that allows them to not have problems with sandy soil.
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
Andy Highfield's point is that high-fiber foods are the key. Also, it could be soil density and overall composition (clay, organic matter, soil, rock plates, plant roots), winds and rains which move soil fractions around.
Tom's question is rightful - do tortoises benefit from having sandy substrate? For bearded dragons there are recommended substrate compositions to encourage digging and create non-collapsing caves and tunnels, at the same time general advice is to keep baby dragons off the loose substrates. Tortoises burrow in bark just fine and walk on it without issues - maybe it's better for them to live without sand.
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
Since tortoise digestion is based on locomotion, I would believe it has a part in this as well. Most of us can't provide as much land to our tortoises as their territories would be in the wild. Also, the enviroment we have for them might not be stimulating enough to provide as much walking in the wild.
Overall I see this wild vs captive setting discussion as interesting. Questions like "Can I trust my tortoise to not eat toxic plants?" also seem to fall under this category. I would love to see more studies comparing wild versus captive tortoises.
I agree. Once again i'm not advocating for or arguing that they need sand. I'm simply saying in many situations it works and I'm very interested in why. I think it holds answers to help us provide the best care we can for our animals. Maybe it's more space, humidity, hydration, nutrition or something we haven't thought of yet. That has been my point all along. It's easy to say they don't need it so don't use but that doesn't advance our knowledge of animal husbandry.
FANTASTIC way to hopefully get some to understand the complexities of our living world.
If you are using "The Wild" in any way to try and explain something you have already lost the argument/conversation. How many torts die in the wild? The wild only survives by numbers, more stay alive than are killed or die. In no way do I want to replicate the rate of death in the wild, so if you are including "life in the wild" in your point you have already lost.
The soil that includes sand where tortoises inhabit naturally is usually more of a loam. It's a mixture that includes sand. if you've ever been around loamy soil you can squeeze it into a ball and it won't hold it's shape. It's not like being at the beach. I'm sure people with real knowledge about this could explain why. Maybe @EppsDynasty could shed some light on this?
And once again WHERE did I say we should be using sand? Where did i say the 'WILD" is always the best? That's never been the point of this whole conversation but I guess we can't get past the "don't use sand it's dangerous" part of this. I guess we never learned anything from observing how animals survive in the wild? Although Tom learned so much from his friend Thomas who observed Sulcata in their natural surroundings. This site has become what it is by people asking questions and trying to better our understanding of tortoise keeping. I guess those days are over.
Sand that clumps together is in the category of "Hydrophilic" or water loving. ALL sand with the right moisture levels will clump together.
There is another variable to this as well ... how much of said sand is only granules of sand and how much "Dirt" is in the mix. Play Sand you can buy at the home store is actually a high percentage of Dirt not granules of sand. What we think of as Sand is actually small rocks broken down over time. What we call dirt is a mixture of organic material with small granules of broken down rock. When a quarry produces sand it has a high amount of very fine dirt in it.
There is another variable to this as well ... how much of said sand is only granules of sand and how much "Dirt" is in the mix. Play Sand you can buy at the home store is actually a high percentage of Dirt not granules of sand. What we think of as Sand is actually small rocks broken down over time. What we call dirt is a mixture of organic material with small granules of broken down rock. When a quarry produces sand it has a high amount of very fine dirt in it.
I was in no way pointing to you in my comments. I was just pointing out the problem with using the "Wild" in any equation.
Then I apologize. It just seems everyone is stuck on the don't use it part and I really want to know the why some can.
This is very interesting. If you look at the testudo species for example, their habitat is what many call "sandy" probably for lack of a better word. I guess it would be safe to say the types of rocks that formed that sand could be of a different composition than what people would buy here to amend their soil? I appreciate your input on this.
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
The same thing with the moss. If you mention it as part of your Redfoot setup you'll get many posts against it. At the same time many keepers is it without issues, it's an important component of bioactive substrates and such.
So as with CFLs or halogens, I wish could see more weighted advice like "there are risks and benefits (if any), here are guidelines, here are safer alternatives". Yet, I would not put them in forum's care sheets for beginners - these are definitely superb guides "how not to kill your first tortoise".
My particular interest are HID lamps as a source of real good ambient light and jaizei's comment about cypress mulch (because, that's the substrate I use now).
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
I tend to not recommend for new keepers to do anything risky, partly because if they aren't well into the tortoise world they might not understand the risk. It is sometimes hard to advice in these situations, not knowing what the person asking already knows.
Especially with which plants to feed I try to list the pros and cons. Like yes, you can feed broccoli, but only as a small part of a varied diet, like most other foods. The problem is, most of the time the person asking wants a clear cut answer.
It truly is both a scientific and moral dilemma. What risks are you willing to take at the cost of your tortoise?
Especially with which plants to feed I try to list the pros and cons. Like yes, you can feed broccoli, but only as a small part of a varied diet, like most other foods. The problem is, most of the time the person asking wants a clear cut answer.
It truly is both a scientific and moral dilemma. What risks are you willing to take at the cost of your tortoise?
It is and that's why I wish I knew more about the causes of these impactions. It would be nice to say something like "We don't recommend the use of sand because if a,b,c and D are not done it is likely to end with impaction and possible death". Anyone doing much research will see people doing it and it would be nice to have more of an understanding when we explain why they shouldn't.
The sand I'm talking bout is more like powdery dirt. In areas where i have poor draining ground i amend it with play sand or paver sand. Ive used pool filter sand in aquariums & to amend. Its a lot more like the gulf coast beaches. It stirs up easy in water which will kill your filter or its sticks to everything. The paver or play sand soil mix is what i really like to use. It drains very well, plants love it, & its great for all kinds of burrowing.
Outside no one has a problem with it, but if I move their pen setup into an enclosure inside now all the sudden im endangering my animals. If i recommend my setup to someone then im giving poor advice that goes against the caresheet. Which makes me scratch my head.
Its like how some few firearms. All are bad due to people missusing them. I like my soil mix, because it drains really well, keeps claws manicured better, more natural burrowing/digging, good for egg laying. Its not only providing enrichment for them, but its makes it more enjoyable for me as well. I honestly think if you use the right kind the risk is pretty negligible honestly. Little colored rocks worry me way more.
Outside no one has a problem with it, but if I move their pen setup into an enclosure inside now all the sudden im endangering my animals. If i recommend my setup to someone then im giving poor advice that goes against the caresheet. Which makes me scratch my head.
Its like how some few firearms. All are bad due to people missusing them. I like my soil mix, because it drains really well, keeps claws manicured better, more natural burrowing/digging, good for egg laying. Its not only providing enrichment for them, but its makes it more enjoyable for me as well. I honestly think if you use the right kind the risk is pretty negligible honestly. Little colored rocks worry me way more.
There was a thread, sometime the beginning of the year, where Zovick mentioned he has fed fruit to all his tortoises for 60 years with no problems. He was quickly told not to say that because "newbies" couldn't be trusted with that info. It was sad to me that this is where we've gotten with this forum. I'm sure there's a reason he can do this with no problems but we can't even discuss it because we believe people are to ignorant to understand how or why to do certain things. I always feel better about not doing things when I understand why as opposed to just being told not to like I'm a child.
I'm only guessing but I would say his ability to feed fruit is again somehow related to hydration and diet. It would be nice if we found that you could incorporate some fruit for those people who struggle to have a varied diet. Not everyone can grow their own food. Of course the response to this is always, "they don't really get it in the wild so they shouldn't have it", But when you mention sand in the wild you hear "we should do better than in the wild". It's hard to explain things we don't entirely understand and that's why I love when we explore things as group here. I believe we still have lots to learn.
Sorry about getting way off topic. I just find it all interesting.
