I feel we're finally get some answers. I've always believed there is something to benefit by learning what is actually causing the problems and I definitely know more now then I did. I wish this forum was more friendly to these types of conversations but it's not. Lot's of knowledge here if we were more open.
Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video
- Thread starter Fluffy
- Start date
Do you personally use ABG mixes?
Right On 100%
This was a VERY good thread for all to share and air there info, ya really can't beat that.
The TFO is still one hell of a place to be!
I was making growing mixes before I'd heard of it so I don't follow it exactly. I play around with the quantities and include other items that aren't part of the original recipe.
I went looking on the internet for any x-ray of tortoises with sand impaction. Not really anything there. Surprisingly lots of articles about dogs with sand impaction. Basically all of them from being at the beach. Of course we have already determined that beach sand is different from what we're discussing here but I found it really interesting.
Also tons of articles about bearded dragons. I know nothing about lizard care but lots of parallels to the discussion we're having here. They seem to be focused on the types of substrate and husbandry. I'm linking an article I found that particularly stood out because a lot of what he say echos what some are saying here. Again I have no opinion on this but the parallels were shocking.
reptilenetworks.co.uk
Also tons of articles about bearded dragons. I know nothing about lizard care but lots of parallels to the discussion we're having here. They seem to be focused on the types of substrate and husbandry. I'm linking an article I found that particularly stood out because a lot of what he say echos what some are saying here. Again I have no opinion on this but the parallels were shocking.
Eating Sand & Substrate Impaction - The Reptile Networks "Replicate, Emulate, Stimulate"
The following is something that is often said within my Bearded Dragon Facebook group (as well as others). And frankly, …
reptilenetworks.co.uk
I was thinking Box Turtles or any of the forest dwellers might benefit from this type of substrate. You have any thoughts after making your own mix?
I've nothing constructive to add to any of this, but this thread is 100% the reason I love TFO. I've read every reply in this thread. My takeaway from all of it is to remain doing things as I've always done it. I don't feed fruit and I don't use any sand as a substrate (or mixture thereof). I'm of the mindset now and will continue with that mindset that if it's not necessary and they won't miss if if they never had it, the why introduce it? This discussion has solidified my belief. 
I have seen a problem that other people have not seen. What I've seen is not more important... This sentiment makes no sense. This is like you saying that you've seen no great white shark attacks in Alabama, so its a non-issue. It doesn't happen. Of course it happens. You just haven't seen it. This is like you saying that gang violence is a "non-issue" because you haven't seen much of it in your town, completely ignoring the observations of other people. The observations of people living in Chicago or Oakland CA are not "much more important" than yours. They have just seen something that you haven't.
No, this problem occurs all over the country and all over the world. I've yet to see a death from coco coir impaction. I have seen many deaths from sand. If you want to share info on all the coco coir deaths that you have seen first hand, I am all ears. We can discuss it and try to figure out why you've seen something completely different that what I've seen in 30+ years of tortoise keeping, and what factors may be at work here.
We don't know why some get blocked up and die and others don't. Dehydration, percentage of sand, and enclosure size were nothing more than speculative guesses by a previous poster. We don't know that any of those things have anything to do with it. I've seen sand impactions in tortoises that had the entire run of a large yard and a big shallow water bowl sitting right there. So no, that is not the only way what I am saying makes sense. That is you trying to make sense of something you have little to no experience with by making up false parameters and proceeding as if they are true.
i can tell you how it happens to dogs, someone dumps water meat was boiled in, or grease from cooking on the ground.... the dog will eat the dirt, or sand where it was dumped, first hand experience..... it takes eating a large quantity at once to cause a problem..... dirt on food passes through right along with the food...... box turtles eat a lot of dirt...... i always see dirt all over their mouths after they eat, especially worms or fruit off the ground.......
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
I went looking on the internet for any x-ray of tortoises with sand impaction. Not really anything there. Surprisingly lots of articles about dogs with sand impaction. Basically all of them from being at the beach. Of course we have already determined that beach sand is different from what we're discussing here but I found it really interesting.
Also tons of articles about bearded dragons. I know nothing about lizard care but lots of parallels to the discussion we're having here. They seem to be focused on the types of substrate and husbandry. I'm linking an article I found that particularly stood out because a lot of what he say echos what some are saying here. Again I have no opinion on this but the parallels were shocking.
Eating Sand & Substrate Impaction - The Reptile Networks "Replicate, Emulate, Stimulate"
The following is something that is often said within my Bearded Dragon Facebook group (as well as others). And frankly, …
As of bearded dragons, I like this article more:
What Substrate Should I Use?! | Enclosures
As many bearded dragon owners have discovered, there are a LOT of different opinions out there on which substrates are the best. There are a lot of posts here (and basically on every reptile forum...) that argue particle vs. non-particle substrates. So, here is my attempt at creating an...
www.beardeddragon.org
The other thing is that coco coir is not among recommended substrates. Because it passes through worse than play sand. Totally opposite to what we see in forum's care sheets.
Interesting article. It seems in reptile keeping you better get your husbandry right. It also seems the more I read about this subject in general, young animals appear to more susceptible to problems. The majority of articles about sand impaction in tortoises you find is about young Desert Tortoises. I guess that would make sense. The amount of any substrate needed to clog the digestive tract would be a lot less in small animals. All interesting stuff.As of bearded dragons, I like this article more:
Should be noted, that besides using sail/soil(+optional clay) mix they recommend to feed the dragon off the substrate - separate container for live prey and food dish for other (and dragons can use high-sided dishes). And not to use loose substrates for baby dragons.What Substrate Should I Use?! | Enclosures
As many bearded dragon owners have discovered, there are a LOT of different opinions out there on which substrates are the best. There are a lot of posts here (and basically on every reptile forum...) that argue particle vs. non-particle substrates. So, here is my attempt at creating an...
The other thing is that coco coir is not among recommended substrates. Because it passes through worse than play sand. Totally opposite to what we see in forum's care sheets.
Again you're saying you know better, because of what YOUVE seen. You're dismissing what ive seen as well as others within this thread. Im providing the same anecdotal evidence youre providing. Its not like youre linking worldwide case studies or anything.
You're also acting like Ive never left AL & dont have access to anyone online. I even stayed at an extended stay facility on a desert tortoise ranch with my travel partner while we did our engineering work for a chem plant. Which by the way I can totally understand why theres stone & impaction issues in that environment. It messed up my sinuses being so dry.
Youre literally the only person I see making a gigantic deal out of this. I work with some ultra conservative engineers, but your stance on this takes conservative to a whole other level.
Gopher tortoises for example. Why isnt there a sand epidemic with them. My guess is the humidity & access to plenty of water. Redfoots act just like a box turtle rooting around surely theyd be affected. Again kept humid & usually provided a bunch of water access. Then you have testudo. You're telling me dont use even use an ounce of sand or it could possibly kill your russian tortoise. Meanwhile in nature......
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By the way...Shocker i have internet. I have access to the data from different areas to see the amount of shark attacks & gang violence. I can also communicate with the people from those areas.
Be honest are you one of those people that think us native alabamians dont have running water & like our cousins? Whats with the isolated indengious forest people treatment...
Be honest are you one of those people that think us native alabamians dont have running water & like our cousins? Whats with the isolated indengious forest people treatment...
I disagree, I think this is for the most part, a very respectable discussion on the topic(s). Thank you Mods for possibly weeding out (haters or abusers)
Your attempts to derail the discussion keep failing, but you are sure persistent. I could keep coming up with banal analogies trying to explain, but you clearly don't want to get the point.
Again, we aren't discussing wild tortoises and how they live. I have not seen any wild tortoises that were confirmed dead from sand impaction. If its happening out there, I am not aware of it. What we are discussing is the risks and merits of adding sand to the environment of a captive torts enclosure. Because of where I live, one of the primary areas in this country where many people keep tortoises, along with AZ, parts of Texas and Florida, and because of my lifelong affiliation with many practicing veterinarians, I have simply seen some things that other people around the country clearly have not seen.
How many people are raising gopher tortoises in sandy indoor enclosures? As far as I've been told, it is illegal to keep them in areas where they occur. Is that incorrect? Your enclosure is not like the wild.
If you are determined to take this as some sort of personal insult, there is nothing I can do to stop you.
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
I have never heard about impactions by coco coir and I would gladly read up on some and see pictures. Is it the fibers or the coir itself?
This thread is interesting and entertaining. But what it isn't, is filled with proof of what the main posters are arguing.
First, no one has a clue what others know or have seen.
Second, the stuff found on the internet has to be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, certain sites can be reliable, but important info can either be left out, not tested or construed by the reader.
Real hands/eyes on proof is really the only proof you really have.
So, the two of you, @S2G and @Tom and anyone else with hands/eyes on proof should should try to get that proof and post it.
Anyone can say anything. Backing it up with hardcore proof is another story!
First, no one has a clue what others know or have seen.
Second, the stuff found on the internet has to be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, certain sites can be reliable, but important info can either be left out, not tested or construed by the reader.
Real hands/eyes on proof is really the only proof you really have.
So, the two of you, @S2G and @Tom and anyone else with hands/eyes on proof should should try to get that proof and post it.
Anyone can say anything. Backing it up with hardcore proof is another story!
I don't understand why outdoor enclosures in areas that have naturally sandy soils are acceptable, but if someone scoops that up and puts it in their inside enclosure it's suddenly a death sentence?
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
Yes, I would prefer to see some research articles compared to what evidence has been seen here previously. So if you have some to back up your claims keep them coming!
