Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

All the debate aside, the logical part of my brain tells me mixing sand into a substrate you need to keep partly damp to maintain humidity(this is more referring to indoor set ups) would make sand want to stick absolutely everywhere, including the nooks and crannies where their skin is softer, I doubt that feels particularly pleasant for them. A grain of sand in the eye must feel more irritating than a little bit of soil..

Out in the wild they’ll encounter it, but have the choice to move on and not be exposed to it 24/7 with no means to avoid it.

Thats just my hunch, the impaction side of it is just an added factor to me regardless of why that happens to some captive kept tortoises and not others. It’s enough for me to not want to purposely add to substrate, and to discourage others from doing so too.

I guess that’s where my input ends, it’s not much, but something🥲

I respect people’s interest in the more in depth details though🙂

 

[S2G]

All the debate aside, the logical part of my brain tells me mixing sand into a substrate you need to keep partly damp to maintain humidity(this is more referring to indoor set ups) would make sand want to stick absolutely everywhere, including the nooks and crannies where their skin is softer, I doubt that feels particularly pleasant for them. A grain of sand in the eye must feel more irritating than a little bit of soil..

Out in the wild they’ll encounter it, but have the choice to move on and not be exposed to it 24/7 with no means to avoid it.

Thats just my hunch, the impaction side of it is just an added factor to me regardless of why that happens to some captive kept tortoises and not others. It’s enough for me to not want to purposely add to substrate, and to discourage others from doing so too.

I guess that’s where my input ends, it’s not much, but something🥲

I respect people’s interest in the more in depth details though🙂

Theyre literally designed for it. It does not bother them one bit.

My issue isnt sand. Sand is being be used as an escape goat for poor husbandry that will cause issues regardless. Fix the husbandry & its a non issue all together. If it was an issue thered be evidence across the board.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Theyre literally designed for it. It does not bother them one bit.

My issue isnt sand. Sand is being be used as an escape goat for poor husbandry that will cause issues regardless. Fix the husbandry & its a non issue all together. If it was an issue thered be evidence across the board.

I appreciate that opinion, you could very well be correct. But again in the wild, they still don’t have to be exposed to it 24/7 with no means to avoid it.

I somewhat agree with the second part of your statement, but again, when using a platform to advise on animal care, you have to cater for the enormous spectrum that is the tortoise keeping community, if you’re going to advise to the broadest range possible, for the sake of as many tortoises well beings as possible, we need to eliminate things that are potential risks in those with less than perfect husbandry😣
There’s never going to be a place in time where every single tortoise owner truly understands every aspect of care in preventing the risks that comes with the sand, it’s never going to be wise to advocate for it in captive care.

We can strive to educate the best possible care from housing, to diet to supplements, the lot, but this world is brutal when it comes to the pet trade, it’s up to well educated and experienced folks, to advise the least risky ways possible to keep a tortoise, for the broadest range of owners when using a platform the entire world has access to. Again, that is just my opinion🙂

 

[Tom]

Theyre literally designed for it. It does not bother them one bit.

No they are not, and unless you think impaction, death, eye infection, and skin irritation is not a "bother" you are wrong.

My issue isnt sand. Sand is being be used as an escape goat for poor husbandry that will cause issues regardless. Fix the husbandry & its a non issue all together. If it was an issue thered be evidence across the board.

This issue is 100% sand. Without sand, there is no sand impaction. You don't know what other mitigating factors are at work here. No one does. Your guessing and assumptions is not helping tortoises.

I'll just keep repeating this over and over as long as you want. I guarantee you will quit before I do.

 

[Tom]

Im a little confused over this reply?☹️

You are confused because you are good natured and don't have bad intentions. His post is called trolling. Don't feed the trolls.

The two guys who have already dumped a bunch of sand into their enclosures NEED it to be okay, because otherwise, they'd have to admit they made a mistake and did something that could be detrimental to their animals. They are so invested in the concept that they can't understand basic logic and they wish to deny reality.

 

[TammyJ]

Here I come again. I have a question and a thought. Are you still there, Dana the Sandman? Here is my question: at what point does sand become stones? And here is my thought: sand collects in the gut, and maybe even lining it, giving it a rough instead of a normal smooth surface. Then the tortoise swallows stones or gravel, and the rough sandy surface of the gut prevents the gravel and stones from moving along and out, so then you have major impaction -all started by... well, SAND.

 

[TammyJ]

Here I come again. I have a question and a thought. Are you still there, Dana the Sandman? Here is my question: at what point does sand become stones? And here is my thought: sand collects in the gut, and maybe even lining it, giving it a rough instead of a normal smooth surface. Then the tortoise swallows stones or gravel, and the rough sandy surface of the gut prevents the gravel and stones from moving along and out, so then you have major impaction -all started by... well, SAND.

Don't hold your breath, Tammy!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

You are confused because you are good natured and don't have bad intentions. His post is called trolling. Don't feed the trolls.

The two guys who have already dumped a bunch of sand into their enclosures NEED it to be okay, because otherwise, they'd have to admit they made a mistake and did something that could be detrimental to their animals. They are so invested in the concept that they can't understand basic logic and they wish to deny reality.

Lol I could kind of see what he was going for.. but definitely confused on how it added to the discussion.. ah well😬

 

[S2G]

No they are not, and unless you think impaction, death, eye infection, and skin irritation is not a "bother" you are wrong.


This issue is 100% sand. Without sand, there is no sand impaction. You don't know what other mitigating factors are at work here. No one does. Your guessing and assumptions is not helping tortoises.

I'll just keep repeating this over and over as long as you want. I guarantee you will quit before I do.

Well Im younger than you so game on father time 😁. Youre persistant I'll give you that. Still wrong though. Theyre designed perfectly for their environment. Sandy soil doesnt phase a russian or similar one dang bit. Thats crazy talk. Theyre perfectly evolved for that environment. Saying any different is assinine.

Lets see those xrays, those eye irrations, etc etc. If its so prevelant then you should have no problem. Phone all those fancy vet friends. I'll send you a seed mix for your grow house or sandy pen soil.

All the impactions so far are gravel.

You totally bypassed the tesudo sand study deal that was listed a page or so ago to along with the gopher tortoise deal. If you were right they wouldnt live there or theyd be extinct.

 

[S2G]

You are confused because you are good natured and don't have bad intentions. His post is called trolling. Don't feed the trolls.

The two guys who have already dumped a bunch of sand into their enclosures NEED it to be okay, because otherwise, they'd have to admit they made a mistake and did something that could be detrimental to their animals. They are so invested in the concept that they can't understand basic logic and they wish to deny reality.

News flash. Im ok with admitting im wrong! Im saying in the amount Chris stated & in that environment its a non issue.

Youre saying its wrong, but you cant back up your statement aside from because i said so.

Furthermore. Who has the better body of work? Gardenstate or you? Who here has bought one of his poor hatchlings so impacted & eyes swolen shut from eye irratation they can hardly function?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I think, and I could be wrong, that Tom hasn’t necessarily said it’s wrong Chris is housing his on it, more that it’s not right/responsible to encourage the community as a whole to do so.. idk that’s what I’ve taken from it, I haven’t seen anyone deny that some tortoises can can be housed on it and appear to suffer no ill effects.

With the wild guys, again they don’t have to necessarily be exposed to it 24/7 year round, maybe thats one of many reasons why we don’t see it effecting them, but admittedly I could be way off🤷‍♀️

I did think however, it had been acknowledged that there’s been multiple cases where sand has been an issue, some that have been shared here, the general response to those has been ‘person was probably doing x, y and z wrong therefore sand became an issue’, which again circles me back round to the why we shouldn’t be recommending purposely mixing sand into substrates, when there’s risk free ways to achieve the benefits I’ve seen listed for using it in the first place..

This could probably keep going round let’s face😂it’s still made for an interesting read though!

 

[mark1]

You are confused because you are good natured and don't have bad intentions. His post is called trolling. Don't feed the trolls.

tom, you calling me a troll?? i got r.p.manni that have been here 30yrs??? i have eastern box turtle been here 25yr, my wood turtles were all bought as hatchlings 21yrs ago....... my blandings still had their egg tooths when i got them 8 and10yrs ago....... i've hatched and raised box turtles, wood turtles and manni here to adulthood, everything here lives outside 24/7/365 from -20F to 104F, with 60-70F temp fluctuations within 24 hours..... i don't think what i do works, i know it works.... your experience, i got some i assure you you do not, it's obvious to me........ i've raised gulf coast box turtles, cuora ambo, cuora flavo, platemys, podocnemis, redfoot , elongated, graptemy's, chelydra, rp manni, rpp, apalone........by your definition soil is sand??? if you can't keep your animals on natural soil, your doing something wrong......... this is not even a fraction of the stuff your wrong on....... i'm not a chris fan for my own reasons, but the guy is good at raising turtles and tortoise , that is obvious, i actually agree with him more than you........... is disagreeing with you "trolling"??? i think calling soil sand is trolling......

 

[mark1]

at what point does sand become stones?

sand becomes dirt, it started as stones....... it doesn't sit in the gut, it passes through like everything else......

 

[mark1]

All the debate aside, the logical part of my brain tells me mixing sand into a substrate you need to keep partly damp to maintain humidity(this is more referring to indoor set ups) would make sand want to stick absolutely everywhere, including the nooks and crannies where their skin is softer, I doubt that feels particularly pleasant for them. A grain of sand in the eye must feel more irritating than a little bit of soil..

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

tom, you calling me a troll?? i got r.p.manni that have been here 30yrs??? i have eastern box turtle been here 25yr, my wood turtles were all bought as hatchlings 21yrs ago....... my blandings still had their egg tooths when i got them 8 and10yrs ago....... i've hatched and raised box turtles, wood turtles and manni here to adulthood, everything here lives outside 24/7/365 from -20F to 104F, with 60-70F temp fluctuations within 24 hours..... i don't think what i do works, i know it works.... your experience, i got some i assure you you do not, it's obvious to me........ i've raised gulf coast box turtles, cuora ambo, cuora flavo, platemys, podocnemis, redfoot , elongated, graptemy's, chelydra, rp manni, rpp, apalone........by your definition soil is sand??? if you can't keep your animals on natural soil, your doing something wrong......... this is not even a fraction of the stuff your wrong on....... i'm not a chris fan for my own reasons, but the guy is good at raising turtles and tortoise , that is obvious, i actually agree with him more than you........... is disagreeing with you "trolling"??? i think calling soil sand is trolling......

I think in Toms defence to this bit, you can see how your response he was referring to could appear a bit troll like🥲 I certainly didn’t take it to heart nor would I take anything to heart here, but it threw me because it didn’t add to the discussion imo.

I’ve said to a few folks on here before now with lots of experience like you guys, that just because your methods have worked for you, doesn’t ever mean there aren’t more up to date/better or more efficient ways of doing things, no matter how much experience I may gain, it would never close my mind to potentially learning new beneficial ways of doing things🙂

this is a wild tortoise no? We’re talking about captive care, I’ve already acknowledged they absolutely encounter it in the wild, but they have the ability to move on and not remain on/in it 24/7 year round, I doubt it causes them the discomfort I’ve mentioned in the wild because of numerous factors no one is dead certain on, but in captivity, in a substrate that needs to be kept damp inside for humidity, I see it being nothing but a nuisance for the tortoise, for no added benefits that can’t be achieved in other safer ways, across the spectrum of keepers.

sand becomes dirt, it started as stones....... it doesn't sit in the gut, it passes through like everything else......

I don’t see sand and soil as the same thing personally, to me it’s micro gravel lol, I can’t imagine it breaking down/passing through easier than a safer coir alternative.. I’m not saying it can’t pass altogether, but do you not see the potential for build up when looking at keeping as a whole picture? It’s ok if you don’t, I’m just genuinely curious, we may always agree to disagree here, I don’t think that makes you a troll🙂

 

[Tom]

tom, you calling me a troll?? i got r.p.manni that have been here 30yrs??? i have eastern box turtle been here 25yr, my wood turtles were all bought as hatchlings 21yrs ago....... my blandings still had their egg tooths when i got them 8 and10yrs ago....... i've hatched and raised box turtles, wood turtles and manni here to adulthood, everything here lives outside 24/7/365 from -20F to 104F, with 60-70F temp fluctuations within 24 hours..... i don't think what i do works, i know it works.... your experience, i got some i assure you you do not, it's obvious to me........ i've raised gulf coast box turtles, cuora ambo, cuora flavo, platemys, podocnemis, redfoot , elongated, graptemy's, chelydra, rp manni, rpp, apalone........by your definition soil is sand??? if you can't keep your animals on natural soil, your doing something wrong......... this is not even a fraction of the stuff your wrong on....... i'm not a chris fan for my own reasons, but the guy is good at raising turtles and tortoise , that is obvious, i actually agree with him more than you........... is disagreeing with you "trolling"??? i think calling soil sand is trolling......

No sir. I am NOT calling you a troll. I called that post you left about lighting strikes trolling. I still like you even though we don't agree on a few points of chelonian care. We agree on almost everything else in the world, and I fully understand that our couple/few differences in chelonian care are based on both of us having different experiences over a lifetime of keeping a variety of chelonians.

I did find that post somewhat amusing, but also sad, because I have been to two tortoise compounds that have had tortoise deaths due to lighting strikes, and one of them lost several adult galops that were all parked next to the same tree that got struck in one instance. Another single tortoise was cooked on a different occasion at that same compound. The amusing part is that you were clearly being sarcastic and implying that my issue with sand is going over board, but the person you were making fun of literally knows of 8 tortoises that were killed in 3 different storms by being struck by lighting at two different compounds. 7 of those tortoises were priceless, decades old, irreplaceable Galapagos tortoises. Though I did see two of the bodies, I did not take pictures for photographic evidence to prove it to someone who thinks I have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[S2G]

this is a wild tortoise no? We’re talking about captive care, I’ve already acknowledged they absolutely encounter it in the wild, but they have the ability to move on and not remain on/in it 24/7 year round, I doubt it causes them the discomfort I’ve mentioned in the wild because of numerous factors no one is dead certain on, but in captivity, in a substrate that needs to be kept damp inside for humidity, I see it being nothing but a nuisance for the tortoise, for no added benefits that can’t be achieved in other safer ways, across the spectrum of keepers.

Where do they move on to though? Its literally miles of that terrain for 100 yrs. The babies seek the same kind of micro climate in that same environment. Theyre designed for it. Thats what gives them the ability to endure the poor husbandry for so long in captivity. You think an animal designed to endure one of the harshiest climates on earth is going to fall out over a sprinkle of sand?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Where do they move on to though? Its literally miles of that terrain for 100 yrs. The babies seek the same kind of micro climate in that same environment. Theyre designed for it. Thats what gives them the ability to endure the poor husbandry for so long in captivity. You think an animal designed to endure one of the harshiest climates on earth is going to fall out over a sprinkle of sand?

I’m pretty sure they eventually reach an area that isn’t pure sand no? I don’t think any tortoise lives on sand constantly in their lifetime naturally, I could be wrong?

I don’t think it’s necessarily going to kill all captive tortoises no.
There does appear to be some evidence out there that it’s contributed to the deaths of some, not the sand alone, but still a factor that isn’t necessary to recommend adding imo

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I’m pretty sure they eventually reach an area that isn’t pure sand no? I don’t think any tortoise lives on sand constantly in their lifetime naturally, I could be wrong?

I don’t think it’s necessarily going to kill all captive tortoises no.
There does appear to be some evidence out there that it’s contributed to the deaths of some, not the sand alone, but still a factor that isn’t necessary to recommend adding imo

You can look at native habitats of Egyptian tortoises or Psammobates. While they can reach a non-sandy area, they have to cross miles of sand to do that.
What's interesting on the photos of wild Psammobates - sandy soil holds their weight (it's firm enough so they are not walking knee-deep in the sand).

Another thing, is that we can fall victims of the "game of numbers" here. Soil/sand mixes looks like one of the most popular substrate options (if you look for care guides outside TFO). So it's possible, that we see 20 cases of sand impactions out for tens (hundreds) of thousands tortoises. And we don't see many impaction cases when crushed oyster shells are used... Just because less than thousand of tortoises is housed on it.

Also, as has been noted above - "living on sand" often includes cases of totally wrong husbandry, while usage of other substrates may imply better husbandry practices.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

This is probably the last time I will post here, I feel like this conversation is just going in circles and I probably don't have anything to add anymore after this. I have formed my own opinion and that is enough for me.

Here are some examples of sand impaction cases posted on the forum

• Tortoise was diagnosed to be impacted with sand by a vet. Unfortunately the tortoise died later. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/urgent-help-needed-sand-impaction.112373/
• K9KidsLove told about their experience with sand impactions on multiple threads. In this thread they tell about them on post #25 https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/indoor-juvenile-desert-tortoise-enclosure.2859/page-2
• Tortoise was confirmed to have a sandy impaction by x-ay. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/fecal-impaction-substrate-dilemma.192566/#post-1953612
• KaitlinKeefe_ mentions that their tortoise has suffered sand impaction on post #44 https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-were-your-beginner-mistakes.135840/page-3#post-1351379
• A tortoise is impacted by moss and sand, XRAY INCLUDED https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/impaction-advice-please.193698/
• Along with the above, on this thread post #30 by YvonneG was the only other x-ray that I found with a quick search. On some other threads x-ray evidence was mentioned but the x-ray wasn't posted on the forum. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/h...very-sick-tortoise.148099/page-2#post-1403902

Also, here is a thread similar to this one. I stumbled upon it while looking at the subject her on the forum: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/researching-sand.172893/