Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

This is probably the last time I will post here, I feel like this conversation is just going in circles and I probably don't have anything to add anymore after this. I have formed my own opinion and that is enough for me.

Here are some examples of sand impaction cases posted on the forum

• Tortoise was diagnosed to be impacted with sand by a vet. Unfortunately the tortoise died later. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/urgent-help-needed-sand-impaction.112373/
• K9KidsLove told about their experience with sand impactions on multiple threads. In this thread they tell about them on post #25 https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/indoor-juvenile-desert-tortoise-enclosure.2859/page-2
• Tortoise was confirmed to have a sandy impaction by x-ay. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/fecal-impaction-substrate-dilemma.192566/#post-1953612
• KaitlinKeefe_ mentions that their tortoise has suffered sand impaction on post #44 https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-were-your-beginner-mistakes.135840/page-3#post-1351379
• A tortoise is impacted by moss and sand, XRAY INCLUDED https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/impaction-advice-please.193698/
• Along with the above, on this thread post #30 by YvonneG was the only other x-ray that I found with a quick search. On some other threads x-ray evidence was mentioned but the x-ray wasn't posted on the forum. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/h...very-sick-tortoise.148099/page-2#post-1403902

Also, here is a thread similar to this one. I stumbled upon it while looking at the subject her on the forum: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/researching-sand.172893/

Your efforts are appreciated!

 

[EppsDynasty]

if SOIL(40-50%sand) is an eye problem, there should be a lot of blind tortoises out there

tortoise skin is made for it........

I just can't respond to this .... This statement is Ludicrous!
I tried and tried to explain that Sand has 2 forms and 1000's of "Types"
Sand in it's Hydrophobic form sticks with very little actual "grab" to the surface, this is why you are able to wipe it off at the car so easily. It wants to repel any moisture and DOES NOT want to adhere to anything moist (your skin), so it's irritating "Power" is usually minimal.
Sand in it's Hydrophilic form (water loving) is exactly the opposite, it WANTS to adhere to moisture and is VERY hard to remove. This is when you are holding your feet up in the air (while sitting in your car) and use water to rinse it off.
1st Hydrophilic: This form will stick to eyes and be very irritating, this is when and how torts suffer eye scratches. You most likely would not even notice the torts eye has a scratch, or even take it to a vet (where most likely you would be told it has to heal on it's own) It in almost all cases would not cause blindness, so to say "There should be a lot of blind tortoises" is just wrong!
2nd Hydrophobic: This form is very easy for the tort to get off by simply rubbing it with their legs, remember it HATES moisture and DOES not adhere very well. Because of the way this forms behaves it really "Floats" (for lack of a better word) on the surface of whatever it is on. So to expect "a lot of blind tortoises" from this form is just wrong as well. Physics is Physics and you have to involve that in any equation where you are trying to prove something. Example: A shed is painted with Brand A paint, within a month the paint starts to peel. The shed owner then starts to bad mouth Brand A paint as terrible because it's falling off the shed. Completely ignoring the shed surface and how well it would allow ANY paint to adhere. There are all kinds of things that would make it almost impossible for the paint - any paint - to adhere; primer type and condition, cleanliness of said surface prior to paint, water or oil based primers or paint itself, etc., etc.
Sand IS a terrible irritant and if you do not think so you are simply denying physics.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

It’s also occurring to me that not only do we have a few examples posted here now where sand has been an issue, but can you imagine how many we just simply don’t hear about? How many folks have perhaps had their tortoise impacted, just said they were constipated and called it a day. Then there are those that may have discovered sand caused an impaction but haven’t reported that anywhere out of guilt.. idk just a thought for why we’re not necessarily able to provide hundreds of examples here🫤

There’s also the fact that many out there are aware of the risks with sand and therefore aren’t using it, I’m willing to bet less than half of captive tortoises have any mixed in, least I hope😣that would also explain the ‘lack of evidence’ so to speak, but I personally think there’s more than enough evidence there for it not to be a good recommendation still..

 

[dd33]

Grabbed a couple of photos to show sand content in some Galapagos poops. For poops that contain sand, these are below average. Not arguing that sand is safe, just pointing out how much they eat on their own every day.







Edit to add another photo. This is a Galapagos poop from an animal that had just arrived from a different property in Florida. It has a LOT of sand.

 

[Tom]

It’s also occurring to me that not only do we have a few examples posted here now where sand has been an issue, but can you imagine how many we just simply don’t hear about? How many folks have perhaps had their tortoise impacted, just said they were constipated and called it a day. Then there are those that may have discovered sand caused an impaction but haven’t reported that anywhere out of guilt.. idk just a thought for why we’re not necessarily able to provide hundreds of examples here🫤

There’s also the fact that many out there are aware of the risks with sand and therefore aren’t using it, I’m willing to bet less than half of captive tortoises have any mixed in, least I hope😣that would also explain the ‘lack of evidence’ so to speak, but I personally think there’s more than enough evidence there for it not to be a good recommendation still..

There is absolutely no lack of evidence out there. There is just a lack of incentive on my part to go spend the time and effort searching it out when this is so obvious and the naysayers aren't going to believe it anyway. Mark 1 posted a sand impaction picture himself. A brief search just here on our own forum by @The_Four_Toed_Edward yielded several examples.

I would also agree with what you just posted. Years of time and experience bear that out. Few people take the time to explain their own failures publicly so that others may learn from their mistakes. This is true in all walks of life, not just tortoise keeping. I do this myself. When I do something stupid and there is no one there to see it, I just do my best to clean up the "mess" and I don't tell anyone about what an idiot I was.

I see what I see at friend's vet clinics. I take it in, learn what I can, and file that info away in the back of my brain. I don't break out the camera and start taking notes so that I can win an argument on tortoise forum years down the road. If someone does not find me to be a credible witness, that is their prerogative. Some people need to learn the hard way.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

There is absolutely no lack of evidence out there. There is just a lack of incentive on my part to go spend the time and effort searching it out when this is so obvious and the naysayers aren't going to believe it anyway. Mark 1 posted a sand impaction picture himself. A brief search just here on our own forum by @The_Four_Toed_Edward yielded several examples.

I would also agree with what you just posted. Years of time and experience bear that out. Few people take the time to explain their own failures publicly so that others may learn from their mistakes. This is true in all walks of life, not just tortoise keeping. I do this myself. When I do something stupid and there is no one there to see it, I just do my best to clean up the "mess" and I don't tell anyone about what an idiot I was.

I see what I see at friend's vet clinics. I take it in, learn what I can, and file that info away in the back of my brain. I don't break out the camera and start taking notes so that I can win an argument on tortoise forum years down the road. If someone does not find me to be a credible witness, that is their prerogative. Some people need to learn the hard way.

Oh yeah I absolutely agree there’s lots of evidence out there, I just mean in terms of their argument that we should be hearing of cases non stop if that makes sense? I don’t think we will for many reasons, but not because sand isn’t an issue.

I for one have completely understood where you are coming from, I hold you in high regard when it comes to tortoise care, your witness testimonies alone are enough to discourage me from wanting to ever use it or encourage others to do so, let alone all the other evidence out there

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Grabbed a couple of photos to show sand content in some Galapagos poops. For poops that contain sand, these are below average. Not arguing that sand is safe, just pointing out how much they eat on their own every day.

View attachment 375051
View attachment 375052




Edit to add another photo. This is a Galapagos poop from an animal that had just arrived from a different property in Florida. It has a LOT of sand.

View attachment 375054

Again though this is likely a situation where every aspect of care is being met to the point that’s it’s essentially like they’re living the real deal, which is a credit to you! (Though we still don’t 100% know for certain why some tortoises can pass it no problem and others can’t, my best guess would be husbandry like some of the other folks think, but truly we don’t know for definite)
As you’ve touched on here though, we can’t argue sand is considered safe enough to start recommending to the whole spectrum of keepers, hopefully I’m making sense lol

 

[S2G]

I’m pretty sure they eventually reach an area that isn’t pure sand no? I don’t think any tortoise lives on sand constantly in their lifetime naturally, I could be wrong?

I don’t think it’s necessarily going to kill all captive tortoises no.
There does appear to be some evidence out there that it’s contributed to the deaths of some, not the sand alone, but still a factor that isn’t necessary to recommend adding imo

They do. Someone will scoop them up & import them to petco or petsmart where they'll be on reptibark. Which going off the logic here is a good thing since they dont have to be miserable on sand silt🤷‍♂️

 

[wellington]

Theyre literally designed for it. It does not bother them one bit.

Again, something you have zero proof of!

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I've looked through the threads, The Four Toed Edward posted. I didn't have enough time to compile findings in a good easy to read table, yet:
1. Half of the cases are "pure sand", "calci sand" and cursed "Tortoise Life" substrate.
2. A 2-3 of others are obvious husbandry issues (a sulcata in 10 gallon tank, tortoise eating mouthful of substrate on purpose, lack of hydration).
3. A 1-2 where I need to go through the user's threads to see what happened.

In case of 1 - this is not how sand is intended to be used (no one suggests to drop a tortoise in a sandbox and forget about it for a couple of weeks). We talk about sane usage of sand in substrate mixes or "yard dirt".

In case of 2 - we can get a tortoise impacted with any kind of substrate. Just because such conditions don't allow stuff to pass through. And yes, there are impaction/perforation cases with bark, chips, shavings and mulch. Haven't seen anything on coir, though (only beardies keepers panic when see coco peat in the enclosures).

 

[S2G]

I really dont understand why my point is so hard to grasp. If you keep them natural, feed them a natural diet, feed them in a common sense natural way, & provide hydration its an absolute non issue. Theyre 100% designed for that soil type & will seek what they want if YOU provide them with different area's.

BUT if you want to keep them unnatural in too small of an enclosure, without the proper hydration, feed mainly produce with pellets, & dont feed off the substrate. YES you need to be very selective of what your substrate etc consists of because you created an environment thats unforgiving.

Thats a husbandry issue though. Its up to you to pick what suits the way you want to keep them. Gardenstate works if you keep them like they do.

 

[wellington]

I really dont understand why my point is so hard to grasp. If you keep them natural, feed them a natural diet, feed them in a common sense natural way, & provide hydration its an absolute non issue. Theyre 100% designed for that soil type & will seek what they want if YOU provide them with different area's.

BUT if you want to keep them unnatural in too small of an enclosure, without the proper hydration, feed mainly produce with pellets, & dont feed off the substrate. YES you need to be very selective of what your substrate etc consists of because you created an environment thats unforgiving.

Thats a husbandry issue though. Its up to you to pick what suits the way you want to keep them. Gardenstate works if you keep them like they do.

Seriously! Same reason you don't want to see Toms or anyone elses points!

 

[S2G]

Again, something you have zero proof of!

And you think Im the hard headed one 🤣

 

[wellington]

And you think Im the hard headed one 🤣
View attachment 375075View attachment 375076View attachment 375077View attachment 375078

I think a few of you are! Your pictures only prove there is sandy areas in some tortoises habitats. If these are from their natural habitats. Doesn't prove sand doesn't cause impactions!
In fact it proves they can move off it an go onto the greenery. Funny, someone said they couldn't get off it.

 

[S2G]

Seriously! Same reason you don't want to see Toms or anyone elses points!

Brother I see your point and I agree it with in those circumstances. Ive mentioned it like 5 times now. You obviously dont see mine though.

We dont keep our animals that way so we can do things differently. Its 100% not the sand.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

BUT if you want to keep them unnatural in too small of an enclosure, without the proper hydration, feed mainly produce with pellets, & dont feed off the substrate. YES you need to be very selective of what your substrate etc consists of because you created an environment thats unforgiving.

Thats a husbandry issue though. Its up to you to pick what suits the way you want to keep them.

You’re describing probably over half of how the worlds captive tortoises are being kept, it’s a sad but true fact thats always going to be out of our control, you kind of proved the point of where I was coming from at least.. when using a platform to advise on pet care, in a world that is unforgiving and the pet trade is an absolute mess, it’s up to people who understand that, to eliminate potential risks when recommending what kind of things to use in an enclosure, even if you go to the ends of the earth describing every aspect of care on whatever platform it is, there will always be an insane amount of people with incorrect or less than perfect husbandry.

Sand just isn’t worth the risk of recommending people use across the board(no matter how small that ‘risk’ is considered to be, I guess that’s up for debate between you guys) if it was that would be a completely different story, for me at least.

 

[S2G]

I think a few of you are! Your pictures only prove there is sandy areas in some tortoises habitats. If these are from their natural habitats. Doesn't prove sand doesn't cause impactions!
In fact it proves they can move off it an go onto the greenery. Funny, someone said they couldn't get off it.

Dude its not like they can go hmm i think ill mosey on down to the rain forest section today. Thats theyre habitat theyre designed to live in. Guess what? Its sandy. Rocky sandy, sandy with bushes, sandy with patches of grass. The point is they thrive & its sandy ok. Guess what my enclosures mimic that. They have bushes, they have cascading grass patches, they have deep shade. If you dont want to do that then keep them a different way. Dont blame our setups on your husbandry practices.

They go Oh Shish its hot let me get under this bush & bury myself. OH Shish its cold let me bury myself deep enough where i can chill until it warms up. They dont bury themselves in rock they dig down in the sandy silt or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Dude its not like they can go hmm i think ill mosey on down to the rain forest section today. Thats theyre habitat theyre designed to live in. Guess what? Its sandy. Rocky sandy, sandy with bushes, sandy with patches of grass. The point is they thrive & its sandy ok. Guess what my enclosures mimic that. They have bushes, they have cascading grass patches, they have deep shade. If you dont want to do that then keep them a different way. Dont blame our setups on your husbandry practices.

They go Oh Shish its hot let me get under this bush & bury myself. OH Shish its cold let me bury myself deep enough where i can chill until it warms up. They dont bury themselves in rock they dig down in the sandy silt or whatever you want to call it.

lol even though we may agree to disagree a bit here, the way you worded this gave me I chuckle😂 the mosey on down bit got me🤣

I’m glad you and many others here have great husbandry, which is hopefully what cancels out any potential risks, I just still couldn’t bring myself to recommend using it when looking at the entire picture of captive kept tortoises, again that’s just my view🙂

 

[wellington]

Dude its not like they can go hmm i think ill mosey on down to the rain forest section today. Thats theyre habitat theyre designed to live in. Guess what? Its sandy. Rocky sandy, sandy with bushes, sandy with patches of grass. The point is they thrive & its sandy ok. Guess what my enclosures mimic that. They have bushes, they have cascading grass patches, they have deep shade. If you dont want to do that then keep them a different way. Dont blame our setups on your husbandry practices.

They go Oh Shish its hot let me get under this bush & bury myself. OH Shish its cold let me bury myself deep enough where i can chill until it warms up. They dont bury themselves in rock they dig down in the sandy silt or whatever you want to call it.

I'm not Dude!
All I can say is the Pot calling the Kettle Black!
Whole lot of guarantees with zero proof.
Some of you need to actually get the point!